Beyond "TL 8 with Starships"

[Spirit of '77]

I read the title comment somewhere, cannot remember where, that many campaigns were little more than TL 8 (current real world tech) plus starships and maybe a few other things. The "Goto Tech" thread gives some examples of how players optimize their characters with tech. But this question is about settings. How do you use TLs to make your setting distinctive? Or is this not important to you? Or do you think this quote is rubbish? I'm interested either way.

 

[rinku]

TL12 unless local conditions apply is generally how I roll, which seems to now be the MGT standard. It mostly affects shopping, although obviously stuff can be imported. "Local conditions" includes trade route links and proximity, not just the current system's TL.

But then again, what is TL12 anyway? TL8 is Information Age, TL9 is Gravitic Age (maybe Interplanetary Age), TL10 is Interstellar Age.

TL11 is...? Robot Age? Interstellar Age part 2, Electric Boogaloo?

TL12 is...? Plasma weapons and Combat Armour age? Weather Control age? Seems a little specific.

 

[Spirit of '77]

I agree that TL 12 is a good average, and that more detail is needed. MegaTraveller has very detailed tech trees for several tech specialties, but there is no tech tree for "Your Life", which I think is rather important. Here is my tech entry for Your Life at TL 12:

TL 12-13: Robots eliminate most manual labor, freeing up most sophonts to pursue rich intellectual lives. Productivity dividends (from labor automation) are a major part of income. Poverty is effectively eliminated at the planetary level, as capitalism flees to the stars. Advanced antitoxins eliminates most ill health, tissue regeneration is common, and even reanimation from “death” is within reach. Physical appearance is easily changed (skin and hair color).

 

[rinku]

I mean, the main differences between TL10-15 have always been framed as weapons and drive maximums.

I'd place physical appearance changing as more of a spectrum starting at least as low as TL5-6. We've had plastic surgery that long, but crude body modification goes back to the stone age. Certainly TL8 seems to be fairly sophisticated in that respect, and I can only expect more and more of that at TL9, TL10 and TL11.

Robot Handbook gives Advanced Brains at TL10-12, improving to Very Advanced at TL12-14, but these are largely incremental improvements; the main difference is Very Advanced brains cracking the INT9 barrier and getting +1 INT DM. TL15 has self aware brains, and that's likely to be a major defining feature of TL15 if they are allowed to be built.

Full body cybernetics are a TL12 advance, although tyou can get a brain to clone transplant done at TL11.

TL13 seems to be a major technology threshold. Nanobots, quick grown clones, Gauss weapons.

 

[Morgoth99]

I think a good question would be to ask: How are our ordinary lives different today (TL8 in some respects) compared to say the 1970s?

Just to use one example of TL 12 "daily tech" that is likely in service, save in places here it's politically/socially unacceptable. "health implants" you, your kid, your parents all have health implants hooked up to smart system. It doesnt' just build a profile of your health and warn you if something is going wrong, it allows for subtle modifications to keep you healthy. Is your kid at school? Does she fall down and smash her nose? Before her teacher even sees her, there's an alert being sent to the medical services, complete with recommended courses of action.

 

[tytalan]

The Imperium seems to default to TL 12 for starships so IMTU imperial starports are either TL 12 or the planets TL whichever is higher. Now outside of the imperium or other major political the planets TL determines the starport TL. This is why I have TL 9 Free Trader designs and TL 11 Far Traders. Another issue is while imperium worlds use certain standardized designs outside again things get a bit more challenging.

Now as far as TL in general it’s a measure of infrastructure more than anything else so trade goods above the worlds TL are hit and miss, between planetary restrictions and the needed infrastructure to support the goods higher TL goods can be a hard sale.

All in all the important of TL varies depending of what your talking about

 

[MonsterX]

As a rule of thumb, TL10-12 make for a good game generally, since you've got all the spaceships and gear you need for a good scifi adventure. Above that, things tend to get a bit post-scarcity, which tones down the hardscrabble vibe that makes Traveller interesting. Can be done, but 10-12 is a good go-to tech.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Traveller may as well have only three TLs above modern day

gravitcs TL8
jump TL9
damper/meson TL10

How do you describe how general society appears at each TL using cinema/TV?

TL8 superspy techno thriller - looks like hollywood imagines the world in 10 years time
TL9 Ad Astra, 2010, Outland
TL10 the expanse
TL11 star trek enterprise
TL12 star trek original series->DS9
TL13 star trek Picard era, Kelvin verse
TL14 star wars at the height of the republic
TL15 Foundation TV series

One of my favourite Traveller read alongs remains the Ironmongery section of CT LBB:4 Mercenary and the vignettes on the changing nature of the battlefield over the TLs

I posted a side by side of this somewhere sometime... probably easier to do it again rather than try to find it, and then add more detail.

 

[Spirit of '77]

As a rule of thumb, TL10-12 make for a good game generally, since you've got all the spaceships and gear you need for a good scifi adventure. Above that, things tend to get a bit post-scarcity, which tones down the hardscrabble vibe that makes Traveller interesting. Can be done, but 10-12 is a good go-to tech.

This is a good comment, as it highlights a campaign opportunity. Namely, non-travelling NPCs ought to be very different from travellers precisely because many NPCs live on high-tech worlds with a VERY different life experience from travellers who need to do everything for themselves. Of course, this would require some work by the referee and the players may not care that much. But this is what I try to do.

 

[Condottiere]

I can design an interstellar spacecraft at technological level nine, fairly cheaply, but that doesn't mean that fairly experienced starfarers will want to travel in it, unless desperate.

In setting terms, technological level twelve is a good starting point, being the end of the Rule of Man, and the beginning of the Third Imperium.

You can also do quite a number of tropey things, before the experience becomes magical.

 

[Sigtrygg]

TL 12 is five science/technology/cultural/societal changes from where we are now at TL7.

Consider the nature of the anglosphere, at TL4 and less slavery was almost universally practiced by every culture and was perfectly morally acceptable.

At TL6 unmarried mothers and homosexuality were completely culturally taboo.

TL7 has brought us antisocial media

So how is society going to change at each TL 8 through 12? That is what Traveller, and most sci fi, struggles to adequately describe.

 

[collins355]

We aren't TL8. TL8 is grav vehicles like air/raft.

 

[Condottiere]

And fusion reactor.

 

[Sigtrygg]

And anti-personnel man portable laser carbines.

 

[Spirit of '77]

TL 12 is five science/technology/cultural/societal changes from where we are now at TL7.

Consider the nature of the anglosphere, at TL4 and less slavery was almost universally practiced by every culture and was perfectly morally acceptable.

At TL6 unmarried mothers and homosexuality were completely culturally taboo.

TL7 has brought us antisocial media

So how is society going to change at each TL 8 through 12? That is what Traveller, and most sci fi, struggles to adequately describe.

I agree, but this is where the big opportunity for campaign design comes in. We don't need to depend upon Mongoose or any other authority. Big opportunity for 3PPs. Clement Sector dips a toe in by saying that most worlds are completely distinct from one another and have very different cultures. I take this approach but then say that the mass of sophonts who regularly use interstellar travel are a culture distinct from any world, who understand the culture of travellers but leave a wide birth for other cultural differences. This takes a lot of work, and there is space for some 3PP to provide their view.

 

[rinku]

The current TL definition has had to be tweaked at every major edition. If you insist on Classic Traveller charts as canon, we should have reached TL10 in 2000:



We are CLEARLY in a different technological age than the 1970's, despite the lack of antigravity. I'll stand with more recent definitions of TL8 as the information age. In any case, a particular advance doesn't instantly develop as soon as the nominal date ticks over. Plenty of scope for early fusion and air/rafts to arrive in the next few decades.

 

[collins355]

I stand by my longstanding complaint - associating years from our history with Traveller TLs was completely unnecessary and endlessly misleading.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I stand by my longstanding complaint - associating years from our history with Traveller TLs was completely unnecessary and endlessly misleading.

Just out of curiosity... What would be a better method for a point of reference for sophonts (us) who have never experienced any non-Earth-based civilizations?

 

[Condottiere]

Economically, before fusion, and after fusion.

Historically, pick something culturally industrially relevant.

Levitating, might be one.

Transdimensional travelling, another.

 

[rinku]

Just go with the same sort of useful descriptions the earlier and later TLs get. Iron Age. Average Interstellar. etc.
The actual definitions have slid around over the years but one big improvement (in MegaTraveller, I think) was to group the individual TLs into eras.

On pp5-6 of the core handbook MGT2e22 groups TL0-3 as Primitive, TL4-6 as Industrial, TL7-9 as Pre-Stellar, TL10-11 as Early Stellar, TL12-14 as Average Stellar and TL15 as High Stellar. The trade codes don't quite line up with those brackets - Low Tech is 5 or less.