World War 2 Evolution
- Thread starter Old Bear
- Start date
weasel_fierce
Mongoose
Starting with 44 is what will sell initially, but there's definately lots of scope for 1939/40 games as well. Germans fighting French, Brits, Dutch, Belgians, Norwegians and Poles (they invaded my homeland Denmark too, but there werent enough shooting to warrant a game 
).
Russians fighting Finn's. (and IIRC Japanese for a bit too)
Likewise, its highly recommended to keep the focus tightly on skirmish gaming. Put out transports, armoured cars and the likes. You're not going to find a lot of cases where a Tiger lugs along with 2 infantry squads and nothing else.
).Russians fighting Finn's. (and IIRC Japanese for a bit too)
Likewise, its highly recommended to keep the focus tightly on skirmish gaming. Put out transports, armoured cars and the likes. You're not going to find a lot of cases where a Tiger lugs along with 2 infantry squads and nothing else.
TabletopWarrior
Mongoose
Here is my first attempt at WWII unit info:
GERMAN WWII (Late) GRENADIER SQUAD
Team 1: Sergeant w/ MP-40, 2 riflemen w/ Kar-98M, Gunner w/ MG-42
Team 2: Corporal w/ MP-40, 5 riflemen w Kar-98
Size 1 Move 4" Close Combat 2xD6 Target 4+ Armour - Kill 6+
Squad
(Side 2)
MP-40 sub machinegun
Range 10" Damage 2D6
Kar-98 rifle
Range 25" Damage D6
MG-42 light machine gun
Range 35" Damage 2xD6
Fire Teams
Fire Teams: Team 2 may be split off from the section to act as an independent unit with the Corporal acting as unit leader. This may be done before the start of the battle or at the beginning of any turn.
Bolt Action Rifles
The Kar-98 is a bolt action rifle and not capable of putting out the firepower of a semi-automatic rifle. Models armed with Kar-98 may only fire once per turn, i.e. during one activation per turn. They may shoot during a reaction as normal.
MG-42 Light Machine Gun
If a Ready action is taken to set this weapon up properly (lie prone, extend tripod, etc.) then all subsequent Shoot actions will gain two bonus Damage Dice though it may only shoot in its forward facing. These bonus dice are lost as soon as the model moves. In addition, every Damage Dice the weapon rolls counts as two for the purpose of Suppression only."
U.S. WWII ARMORED INFANTRY SQUAD
Team 1: Sergeant w/ Thompson SMG, 3 riflemen w/ M-1 Garand Rifle, Gunner w/ BAR
Team 2: Corporal w/ Thompson SMG, 3 riflemen w/ M-1 Garand Rifle, Gunner w/ BAR
Size 1 Move 4" Close Combat 2xD6 Target 4+ Armour - Kill 6+
Squad
(Side 2)
Thompson SMG
Range 10" Damage 2D6
M-1 Garand Rifle
Range 25" Damage D6
Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR)
Range 30" Damage 2xD6
Fire Teams
Team 2 may be split off from the section to act as an independent unit with the Corporal acting as unit leader. This may be done before the start of the battle or at the beginning of any turn.
BAR
If a Ready action is taken to set this weapon up properly (lie prone, extend tripod, etc.) then all subsequent Shoot actions will gain one bonus Damage Dice though it may only shoot in its forward facing. This bonus dice is lost as soon as the model moves. In addition, every Damage Dice the weapon rolls counts as two for the purpose of Suppression only."
TW
GERMAN WWII (Late) GRENADIER SQUAD
Team 1: Sergeant w/ MP-40, 2 riflemen w/ Kar-98M, Gunner w/ MG-42
Team 2: Corporal w/ MP-40, 5 riflemen w Kar-98
Size 1 Move 4" Close Combat 2xD6 Target 4+ Armour - Kill 6+
Squad
(Side 2)
MP-40 sub machinegun
Range 10" Damage 2D6
Kar-98 rifle
Range 25" Damage D6
MG-42 light machine gun
Range 35" Damage 2xD6
Fire Teams
Fire Teams: Team 2 may be split off from the section to act as an independent unit with the Corporal acting as unit leader. This may be done before the start of the battle or at the beginning of any turn.
Bolt Action Rifles
The Kar-98 is a bolt action rifle and not capable of putting out the firepower of a semi-automatic rifle. Models armed with Kar-98 may only fire once per turn, i.e. during one activation per turn. They may shoot during a reaction as normal.
MG-42 Light Machine Gun
If a Ready action is taken to set this weapon up properly (lie prone, extend tripod, etc.) then all subsequent Shoot actions will gain two bonus Damage Dice though it may only shoot in its forward facing. These bonus dice are lost as soon as the model moves. In addition, every Damage Dice the weapon rolls counts as two for the purpose of Suppression only."
U.S. WWII ARMORED INFANTRY SQUAD
Team 1: Sergeant w/ Thompson SMG, 3 riflemen w/ M-1 Garand Rifle, Gunner w/ BAR
Team 2: Corporal w/ Thompson SMG, 3 riflemen w/ M-1 Garand Rifle, Gunner w/ BAR
Size 1 Move 4" Close Combat 2xD6 Target 4+ Armour - Kill 6+
Squad
(Side 2)
Thompson SMG
Range 10" Damage 2D6
M-1 Garand Rifle
Range 25" Damage D6
Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR)
Range 30" Damage 2xD6
Fire Teams
Team 2 may be split off from the section to act as an independent unit with the Corporal acting as unit leader. This may be done before the start of the battle or at the beginning of any turn.
BAR
If a Ready action is taken to set this weapon up properly (lie prone, extend tripod, etc.) then all subsequent Shoot actions will gain one bonus Damage Dice though it may only shoot in its forward facing. This bonus dice is lost as soon as the model moves. In addition, every Damage Dice the weapon rolls counts as two for the purpose of Suppression only."
TW
weasel_fierce
Mongoose
Main gripe would be that the BAR and MG have the same stats. Between magazine size, non changeable barrels and military doctrines, the BAR is not a very effective machine gun.
I'd propably not give the BAR the suppression bonus. Additionally, the help distinguish the MG42 from its counterparts, I'd give it something like an extra damage die for every 6 rolled.
Some niggly details: Did US armoured inf carry 2 BAR's ? Regular inf only received one, though many squads scrounged a second one. Likewise, it wouldnt be unusual to find a springfield marksmans rifle in the squad.
For the Jerries, its highly unlikely that there'll be two MP40's in a squad, unless one is battlefield loot. For Volksgrenadier units (might be a different unit card), odds are a lot of rifles will be replaced with stg44's (if lucky) or MP40's (most likely). Likewise, VG squads will NOT split during combat. They operate as one entity. Regular German Grenadiers definately have this capability.
For a bit of extra flavour:
Bug out! US rule: A lot of US infantrymen were fresh recruits, thrown into battle. Recruits are [insert suitable number] % cheaper to buy, but if fired upon, and the squad has not reacted yet, roll 1D6. On a roll of 1-2, the squad bugs out, and moves its full move away from the firing squad. On a 3-6 they may act normally.
Walking fire! US rule: US troops often complained about being low on ammo, when they reached the point that their German or Soviet counterparts entered battle with. Once per game, a US squad may conduct walking fire. Advancing, while unloading a steady hail of bullets. This allows you to spend both actions moving AND shooting. This fire is always considered to be in cover (if the target is already in cover, no casualties are inflicted). However, double the attack dice for suppression purposes.
Mission tactics!: German rule: German troops were generally briefed on their own objectives, as well as those of their immediate superior. German units never suffer a penalty for loosing their squad leader.
EDIT: Just to clarify, Im not trying to dump all over your post. I think its great Im a big WW2 gaming geek though so always looking to elaborate or expand
I'd propably not give the BAR the suppression bonus. Additionally, the help distinguish the MG42 from its counterparts, I'd give it something like an extra damage die for every 6 rolled.
Some niggly details: Did US armoured inf carry 2 BAR's ? Regular inf only received one, though many squads scrounged a second one. Likewise, it wouldnt be unusual to find a springfield marksmans rifle in the squad.
For the Jerries, its highly unlikely that there'll be two MP40's in a squad, unless one is battlefield loot. For Volksgrenadier units (might be a different unit card), odds are a lot of rifles will be replaced with stg44's (if lucky) or MP40's (most likely). Likewise, VG squads will NOT split during combat. They operate as one entity. Regular German Grenadiers definately have this capability.
For a bit of extra flavour:
Bug out! US rule: A lot of US infantrymen were fresh recruits, thrown into battle. Recruits are [insert suitable number] % cheaper to buy, but if fired upon, and the squad has not reacted yet, roll 1D6. On a roll of 1-2, the squad bugs out, and moves its full move away from the firing squad. On a 3-6 they may act normally.
Walking fire! US rule: US troops often complained about being low on ammo, when they reached the point that their German or Soviet counterparts entered battle with. Once per game, a US squad may conduct walking fire. Advancing, while unloading a steady hail of bullets. This allows you to spend both actions moving AND shooting. This fire is always considered to be in cover (if the target is already in cover, no casualties are inflicted). However, double the attack dice for suppression purposes.
Mission tactics!: German rule: German troops were generally briefed on their own objectives, as well as those of their immediate superior. German units never suffer a penalty for loosing their squad leader.
EDIT: Just to clarify, Im not trying to dump all over your post. I think its great
Im a big WW2 gaming geek though so always looking to elaborate or expandweasel_fierce
Mongoose
Ideas for Soviet troops, also 44.
Armament, either:
Rifle squad : Squad leader has PPSH41 (possibly SVT38), 1 DP LMG, rest with bolt actions
SMG squad: Everyone has PPSH41, possibly DP LMG (Im not actually sure if smg sections carried a machine gun at all)
12 men per squad.
PPSH41 gets 3 attack dice.
DP LMG gets 2 dice and acts like a standard MG (better ammo capacity than the BAR, but not the rate of fire of the MG42).
Soviet special rules:
Soviet squads may NOT be split into teams. They operate as a single entity.
Tenacity: Soviet troops tend to be extremely rugged, as well as excellent users of camouflage. USSR infantry receive an armour roll of 6+, if they are in cover or more than 20" from the enemy.
Fix bayonets: While the human wave is a thing of the past in 44, Soviet tactics tended to emphasize close quarters attacks, with spade, grenade and bayonet. Soviet troops may reroll one failed attack die, if they charge a suppressed enemy squad.
While most Soviet troops in 44 are pretty rugged fellows, if you want to represent quickly rounded up conscripts, add the following rule:
Run away!: A soviet squad fired upon must spend its reaction moving away from the enemy, unless every model fired upon is in cover. Squads within 5" of a platoon commander may ignore this rule.
This rule is mostly appropriate up to Stalingrad. By no means all troops acted this way, so make it an option, to save points.
Armament, either:
Rifle squad : Squad leader has PPSH41 (possibly SVT38), 1 DP LMG, rest with bolt actions
SMG squad: Everyone has PPSH41, possibly DP LMG (Im not actually sure if smg sections carried a machine gun at all)
12 men per squad.
PPSH41 gets 3 attack dice.
DP LMG gets 2 dice and acts like a standard MG (better ammo capacity than the BAR, but not the rate of fire of the MG42).
Soviet special rules:
Soviet squads may NOT be split into teams. They operate as a single entity.
Tenacity: Soviet troops tend to be extremely rugged, as well as excellent users of camouflage. USSR infantry receive an armour roll of 6+, if they are in cover or more than 20" from the enemy.
Fix bayonets: While the human wave is a thing of the past in 44, Soviet tactics tended to emphasize close quarters attacks, with spade, grenade and bayonet. Soviet troops may reroll one failed attack die, if they charge a suppressed enemy squad.
While most Soviet troops in 44 are pretty rugged fellows, if you want to represent quickly rounded up conscripts, add the following rule:
Run away!: A soviet squad fired upon must spend its reaction moving away from the enemy, unless every model fired upon is in cover. Squads within 5" of a platoon commander may ignore this rule.
This rule is mostly appropriate up to Stalingrad. By no means all troops acted this way, so make it an option, to save points.
weasel_fierce
Mongoose
And just for something different:
Finnish infantry (winter war of 39-40 mostly, but they fought the Soviets pretty much through to the end)
Im not up on exact squad details in my head. During the winter war, squads dont nescesarily carry an LMG (IIRC, 2 guns per platoon). For Continuation war, supplies are better (and lots of captured soviet guns are around)
For special concerns and rules:
Stay alive!: While dogged and tenacious, the Finn's also realize that manpower is a very important commodity. Once a Finnish force reaches 40% casualties, every squad will immediately retreat one move directly from the enemy, unless this takes them out of an entrenchment or similar position of cover. No charges may be launched after this point, unless the enemy is suppressed, or the combat occurs entirely within a terrain feature.
Sissi: Roughly meaning "Guts", the Finnish army perfected close terrain commando tactics. A finnish squad may perform a special "shoot and scoot" action, allowing them to fire any SMG's they carry, then move their full move, provided the move takes them directly away from their enemy or into a position of cover. This prevents them from reacting this turn, however.
Finnish infantry (winter war of 39-40 mostly, but they fought the Soviets pretty much through to the end)
Im not up on exact squad details in my head. During the winter war, squads dont nescesarily carry an LMG (IIRC, 2 guns per platoon). For Continuation war, supplies are better (and lots of captured soviet guns are around)
For special concerns and rules:
Stay alive!: While dogged and tenacious, the Finn's also realize that manpower is a very important commodity. Once a Finnish force reaches 40% casualties, every squad will immediately retreat one move directly from the enemy, unless this takes them out of an entrenchment or similar position of cover. No charges may be launched after this point, unless the enemy is suppressed, or the combat occurs entirely within a terrain feature.
Sissi: Roughly meaning "Guts", the Finnish army perfected close terrain commando tactics. A finnish squad may perform a special "shoot and scoot" action, allowing them to fire any SMG's they carry, then move their full move, provided the move takes them directly away from their enemy or into a position of cover. This prevents them from reacting this turn, however.
TabletopWarrior
Mongoose
That's cool, I struggled with the BAR vs MG-42. The MG-42 adds two dice after the ready action and the BAR only adds one. With suppression doubling, MG-42 throws out 8 (for suppression purposes) while BAR only throws out six. Even then, I wondered if the BAR was still over valued. I too, wondered about dropping the suppression doubling fo the BAR. But when used on the move, i.e without using a ready action, I think the BAR and MG-42 should be more on par, hence they both start with two dice. Still, I'm just throwing out a starting point for the discussion.
I'll concede the German Cpl's MP-40 is not standard per their T.O. As for the other armarments, I think they are historically representative.
Regarding the Bug Out rule, you have a good point. The U.S. army's leg infantry units went from a lot of very well trained though untested units for Normandy, to a bunch of rapidly trained units that were pushed into the front lines with far less training than desired by the Battle of the Bulge, a mere six months later.
I also like the Mission Tactis rule, but I would probabkly reduce the penalty to one activation rather tahn eliminate it altogether. I would also probably let German Veteran units have a command distance of 9".
The average german veteran unit was far better at tactical movement than their U.S. counterpart. Should this make them harder to hit? Or is just letting them be more spread out sufficient?
But certainly not all German units on the Western front for Normandy and beyond were veteran. There really was a very wide range of capability on both sides. I am not really sure how to capture that with the BF:WWII game system, or even if that is an appropriate goal. For me, the appeal is a quick moving, fun game that gives results that feel "real." A firm attempt at unflinching historical authenticity is probably better left to other game systems.
I think Mongoose will have to make some interesting design decisions for BF:WWII. But so far, they have proven themselves to understand they are GAME publishers.
In the meantime, I'll be tinkering with the system so I can use my WWII models! And of course playing my beloved Marines in BF:Evo just as soon as I can.
TW
I'll concede the German Cpl's MP-40 is not standard per their T.O. As for the other armarments, I think they are historically representative.
Regarding the Bug Out rule, you have a good point. The U.S. army's leg infantry units went from a lot of very well trained though untested units for Normandy, to a bunch of rapidly trained units that were pushed into the front lines with far less training than desired by the Battle of the Bulge, a mere six months later.
I also like the Mission Tactis rule, but I would probabkly reduce the penalty to one activation rather tahn eliminate it altogether. I would also probably let German Veteran units have a command distance of 9".
The average german veteran unit was far better at tactical movement than their U.S. counterpart. Should this make them harder to hit? Or is just letting them be more spread out sufficient?
But certainly not all German units on the Western front for Normandy and beyond were veteran. There really was a very wide range of capability on both sides. I am not really sure how to capture that with the BF:WWII game system, or even if that is an appropriate goal. For me, the appeal is a quick moving, fun game that gives results that feel "real." A firm attempt at unflinching historical authenticity is probably better left to other game systems.
I think Mongoose will have to make some interesting design decisions for BF:WWII. But so far, they have proven themselves to understand they are GAME publishers.
In the meantime, I'll be tinkering with the system so I can use my WWII models! And of course playing my beloved Marines in BF:Evo just as soon as I can.
TW
Rabidchild
Mongoose
As much as I love the BAR, I don't think it can compete with any of the machineguns of the period. Honestly it's more of an assault rifle. I'd keep the 2D6 and take away the setup and suppression.
That being said, with all the semi-auto weapons at the American's disposal they could throw out some firepower when they needed to. What about allowing the M1 Garands take a ready action to doublefire? This would allow the squad to suppress when needed, but is no more effective than simply taking two shoot actions. (Think of the ready action as coordinating fire and passing out ammo.)
As for the MG-42, it is a very modern weapon so let it keep the BF:Evo suppression rules, but drop the effectiveness of other MG's. (I like the +1 die instead of the +2 for say, the Soviet DP)
The german squad based tactics really revolved around the MG, I'd love to see them play fairly similar to modern units.
That being said, with all the semi-auto weapons at the American's disposal they could throw out some firepower when they needed to. What about allowing the M1 Garands take a ready action to doublefire? This would allow the squad to suppress when needed, but is no more effective than simply taking two shoot actions. (Think of the ready action as coordinating fire and passing out ammo.)
As for the MG-42, it is a very modern weapon so let it keep the BF:Evo suppression rules, but drop the effectiveness of other MG's. (I like the +1 die instead of the +2 for say, the Soviet DP)
The german squad based tactics really revolved around the MG, I'd love to see them play fairly similar to modern units.
Kristovich
Mongoose
Jeff Cope said:
I second that!
You know, something I'd like to see would be the Finnish Winter War (with the Swede volunteers of course).
The Pacific would be cool as well, as would the African and European campaings. Anything would be cool IMO.
Or perhaps the British-France vs. Germany early in the war.
Col. Hammer
Mongoose
weasel_fierce said:
I'm a Finn, so this caught my eye...
Just to nitpick, word "sissi" should be translated something like a "ranger". The sissi were the ski equipped guys who did the raids on the enemy units from the forests of Finland. Long range patrol stuff.
The word that means "guts" is "sisu".
weasel_fierce said:
We INVADED Soviet Union 41-44 so we sure fought them pretty much to the end!
Crazy finns decided that we could actually carve out "Grand Finland" by taking not so small piece of Soviet Union for ourselves...Of course we did rely on German to do most of the work for us :lol:
Kristovich said:
Being from Finland myself I sure wouldn't mind that either
But yes others you mentioned would be good also. Maybe Mongoose should take the bull from the horns and NOT do popular late war german-soviet union and normandy route. That has been hacked to death literally in wargaming.
Secesh said:
But then again when late war normandy and stalingrad game areas are flooded with more games than you can shake your stick at(not to mention huge amount of suitable models...) going for niche market could turn out to be good selling move. Because they aren't so flooded out.
Supply&demand. Mongoose would need to have the rules something REALLY amazing to draw all those WW2 players to switch to Mongoose models(that's what they are aiming at afterall. To sell models. If they can't sell models it's not worthwhile to produce models) when they have bucketload of old models.
Albeit completely new gamers are in but then again choosing suitable niche area could be just as sellable. For example Americans probably know more about the pasific war than normandy(normandy here in distant europe. Pasific war lot closer and started with Japans attacking USA directly...) so pasific war related could probably attract attention in USA markets.
Similary for Europe '40 German-France invasion would still be easily identifiable but provide war that isn't so beaten to death as normandy in '44.
And of course Finnish market would love Winter&Continuation war
Though that could easily be done as by product of German-Soviet Union invasion(especially Continuation war. Finland fought alongside Germans afterall so Mongoose could do it alongside lines of European fighting force in BF:Evo. Start up with Germans and Russians but start adding Finnish forces eventually).Why do what everybody else is doing when you could do something new?
There is a void of any in game stores though, at least down here. They'll be the only 28mm WWII pre-painted ruleset on the market so they should stick with what people want judging by what sells in other scales and games - late war Germans.
I understand where you're coming from, you want to see Finns, I want to see Aussies, but if Mongoose does that then the ten guys in the Finland/Australia market get what they want while the rest of the world goes and plays FOW.
Well I've compiled some stuff for early war.
But the most lucrative period would probably be the Eastern Front and Normandy invasion.
But a supplement called Desert Knights would be great (US, 8th Army, Africa Corps, Italian army).
Would it stick to the 4 factions format as in BF:Evo and SST?
Hence the first release - covering European war 44-45 would be Soviets, US army, Britain and Commonwealth and Germany.
An early eastern front release with BT-7s, T-28s etc would be fun though. I would like to see an earlier was supplement with all the crazy tanks people had at that point (ie before the multi-turreted, tankette and light tank concepts had been discredited).
But the most lucrative period would probably be the Eastern Front and Normandy invasion.
But a supplement called Desert Knights would be great (US, 8th Army, Africa Corps, Italian army).
Would it stick to the 4 factions format as in BF:Evo and SST?
Hence the first release - covering European war 44-45 would be Soviets, US army, Britain and Commonwealth and Germany.
An early eastern front release with BT-7s, T-28s etc would be fun though. I would like to see an earlier was supplement with all the crazy tanks people had at that point (ie before the multi-turreted, tankette and light tank concepts had been discredited).
