Why STR should not multiply damage and for Power Attack

[Sutek]

I'd say below or right at the thhreshold. Good observation, and one that's been touched on but not driven home.

Two-handed attacks deal loads of damage that is wasted. Sure, you can lop heads off with itterative Massive Damage inflicting blows, but there's a lot of wasted damage points there when you really only need 20 to kill stuff.

Two-handed attacking is for slaying, not killing. I mean that in the truest sense. You have a crowd of mooks: Killing is in order. You have a Horendous Beastie (note the capitalization there - lol): Slaying is in order. It's ther so that one can grab a Greatsword, announce a Power Attack and burn a Fate Point to chopp the head off the giant snake in the bottom of the pit in Thulsa Doom's temple, just like in the film. That's why it's there.

Plus, it's OGL. As much as is changed, altered or left out from the OGL copy/paste to Conan, some has to remain in there regardless of whether it sounds "right" or not. I think it's fine as is - I mean what if someone writes Improved Power Attack later down the line so that two-handed waepons deal x3 damage or something?

...developers, ignore that last comment....seriously...ignore it!!! (lol)

 

[slaughterj]

Having a two handed weapon means it can be sundered pretty much in one blow, having a two handed weapon means you often do massive over kill wasting damage, having a two handed weapon gives -2 in crampt conditions, having a two handed weapon means you cant use certain feats and having a two handed weapon means your probably never finessing.

All of which are much less frequent than the -4 penalty to every swing that the dual one-handed melee weapon guy gets.

And a two-handed weapon means delivering enough damage to get in a cleave!

If Your clearly running or playing in a game that emphasizes not having full attacks, not flanking and not fighting hordes of low level opponents, then yes get a two handed weapon.

Let's face it, if you are dealing a lot of damage, which higher level types do, then you will often not get in your full attacks, you will need to move to attack others. You get it sometimes, not always, but realistically, 2-handed weapon guy and 2-weapon guy get multiple attacks about as much, but 2-handed guy gets the benefit of moving on to the next person and doing more to them when they get there, which means they get to move on yet again even quicker, so you get a synergistic effect.

As for flanking, as a GM, do as your PCs do, and you'll see that flanking doesn't come up too much.

As for hordes of low level foes, cleave works wonders for the 2-handed weapon guy!

 

[Sutek]

And a two-handed weapon means delivering enough damage to get in a cleave!

Again, all you need is 20 points of damage to kiil an opponent, and therefore cleave into the next opponent too.

Let's face it, if you are dealing a lot of damage, which higher level types do, then you will often not get in your full attacks, you will need to move to attack others. You get it sometimes, not always, but realistically, 2-handed weapon guy and 2-weapon guy get multiple attacks about as much, but 2-handed guy gets the benefit of moving on to the next person and doing more to them when they get there, which means they get to move on yet again even quicker, so you get a synergistic effect.

Well, moving is a separate issue, and any character can move just as much as the next, almost. Apart from getting feats that add to base move rate, everyone is going to be at about 30', so noone is better or worse at the kill-cleave-move scenario. Yes, kill-cleave-move is more possible for the two-handed weapon (2HW) weilding character based on damage output, but if you then bring up "get multiple attacks about as much" then it largely depends on what feats are possessed by the two-weapon combat (2WC) character. With 2WC proficiency and Improved 2WC (I2WC) a 2WC character can double his attacks, as indicated in the example of the feat on page 112, AE.

As for flanking, as a GM, do as your PCs do, and you'll see that flanking doesn't come up too much.

Eh? What does that mean? If I make my bad guys flank the PCs, then the PCs will stop doing it so that I don't keep doing it? I don't understand what you're talking about at all there, man. Clearly I must have misunderstood you, becuse otherwise that is totally ludicrous. My PCs learn from me and if they see that I'm exploiting something that works, they're going to try and use it too...and vice versa.

Fighting on the run is the only thing in Conan taht keeps people out of flank, but it can be self defeating as much as it can be used to advantage.

 

[Netherek]

Not to mention that the degree of increase is a close match between Dagger/Broadsword and Broadsword/Greatsword. In a Dagger/Broadsword comparison you get a 2 die step increase and a 2 AP increase. With Broadsword/Greatsword you get a 3 die step increas and 1 AP increase.

This seems to be a trend with most of the weapons in relation to each other and size increases.

Well, the increase in base damage if you go dagger-broadsword-greatsword isn't linear, it's pretty much exponential:
d4 - average 2,5
d10 - average 5,5
2d10 - average 11

And even if you think this increase is logical for whatever reason, that doesn't by definition mean it's balanced with the rest of the combat system. The thing is that there are discreet thresholds in the damage system: penetrates armor/does not penetrate armor, inflicts massive damage/does not inflict massive damage. The thing that I have found about two-handed weapons is that they often end up above those thresholds, while other weapons end up below them. My point is that 2d10 isn't necessarily twice as good as 1d10, and AP 4 isn't necessarily twice as good as AP 2, the higher values can often be the thing that ends the battle.

Well, that really does match up with physics. You don't bring a knife to a sword fight, and you don't use a sword as your main weapon when facing heay armour. Historically heavy weapons trump lighter ones. If a broadsword did the job as good as a Greatsword the darn thing wouldn't have been invented.

To address the 2 weapon issue, the penalty for light was reduced by 2 while the standard remained the same. Maybe the penalty for two broadswords should be -2 with the feat instead of -4. Haven't done the math, just comparing with D&D.

I am all for methods that improve the defensive abilities for single hand and weapon/shield styles.

Finally, nerfing the PA for 2 handed use still doesn't really address the issue between using the same weapon in one or two hands while power attacking...

 

[Foxworthy]

Fighting on the run is the only thing in Conan taht keeps people out of flank, but it can be self defeating as much as it can be used to advantage.

I see flanking a lot in COnan where multiple characters tend to go for sneak attacks. Plus once you get someone in a flanking postion they can only use five foot steps to get out of the way without taking AoO. Which is easily matched by the other player combatants. And if they do go the provoke the AoO route they have to deal with the AoO before they get out of being flanked. And if they have a speed equal to or less than the attackers they can never fully avoid it. They can prevent the first guy from getting his Sneak attack but the second guy will get it. The only way to effectively avoided it is to get you yourself in a little alcove and that a bad idea too.

Flanking is easy if you know what you're doing and the other people know how to support it.

 

[slaughterj]

As for flanking, as a GM, do as your PCs do, and you'll see that flanking doesn't come up too much.

Eh? What does that mean? If I make my bad guys flank the PCs, then the PCs will stop doing it so that I don't keep doing it? I don't understand what you're talking about at all there, man. Clearly I must have misunderstood you, becuse otherwise that is totally ludicrous. My PCs learn from me and if they see that I'm exploiting something that works, they're going to try and use it too...and vice versa.

Here is my point. How often do the PCs get flanked? Probably fairly rarely, because they work together to avoid it. If you run NPCs like mindless goons, it is easy for PCs to get into flanking position on them, but if you run them as well as PCs run their own characters, then NPCs will not get flanked often. This is hard to do of course, since as the GM you are running 5 or 10 guys or whatever, compared to each PC running one and working together often, but it can be done and is the proper way to run the NPCs because they are not stupid enough to get themselves stuck in flanking positions on a regular basis, as they know that often means death.

 

[Sutek]

Fighting on the run is the only thing in Conan taht keeps people out of flank, but it can be self defeating as much as it can be used to advantage.

I see flanking a lot in COnan where multiple characters tend to go for sneak attacks. Plus once you get someone in a flanking postion they can only use five foot steps to get out of the way without taking AoO. Which is easily matched by the other player combatants. And if they do go the provoke the AoO route they have to deal with the AoO before they get out of being flanked. And if they have a speed equal to or less than the attackers they can never fully avoid it. They can prevent the first guy from getting his Sneak attack but the second guy will get it. The only way to effectively avoided it is to get you yourself in a little alcove and that a bad idea too.

Flanking is easy if you know what you're doing and the other people know how to support it.

So you're agreeing? (hehe) Normally when people quote others it's to DISagree...that's all...

We're definitely on the same page.

 

[Sutek]

Here is my point. How often do the PCs get flanked? Probably fairly rarely, because they work together to avoid it. If you run NPCs like mindless goons, it is easy for PCs to get into flanking position on them, but if you run them as well as PCs run their own characters, then NPCs will not get flanked often. This is hard to do of course, since as the GM you are running 5 or 10 guys or whatever, compared to each PC running one and working together often, but it can be done and is the proper way to run the NPCs because they are not stupid enough to get themselves stuck in flanking positions on a regular basis, as they know that often means death.

I won't adress the contradictions, but I will point them out. :roll:

Now...your assessment is still not taking into account 6 of 8 squares to Flank. Plus the fact that you suggest that all NPCs need to do is "be played smart", like the PCs, and no Flanking will occur, but that isn't consistant with "playing smart" in my experience.

I play NPCs as if they were my player chartacters and not just obstacles. If I wanted and obstacle, I'd use a door or a wall. They have objectives and goals and, on top of that, usually outnumber the PCs 2:1 minimum, with a drive to kill every one of them. As a result, Sneak Attacks are less risky compared to individuals with one weapons weilded two handed. The latter case opens those attackers up to attacks by virtue of having less defense, so I tend to use them as finishers, coming in after the 2-weapon guys have softened up the party with lower damage attacks or bleed damage. That's when "Mister Big Axe" comes in swinging away. It's a much more dangerous scenario and also serves as a "switcheroo", placing the PCs on gard for sneak attacks to only be faced with a brute that is easier to take down with Finesse attacks and Sneak, but now they still have to contend with the left-over assailants that have been whittling them down - it's a compund threat. I've even used NPCs handling large cats as pets as the finishers. My players hate lions and tigers (lol).

Mixing up move rates and weapon lengths too produces more Flank and out of Flank situations, so I just don't see where it ever occurs less by playing smart; I see it much, much more.

Besides, on of the best used NPC attacker tools is the Multiple Attackers rule...that cumulative bonus can be super nasty, especially coupled with a Sneak attack or more.

 

[slaughterj]

Here is my point. How often do the PCs get flanked? Probably fairly rarely, because they work together to avoid it. If you run NPCs like mindless goons, it is easy for PCs to get into flanking position on them, but if you run them as well as PCs run their own characters, then NPCs will not get flanked often. This is hard to do of course, since as the GM you are running 5 or 10 guys or whatever, compared to each PC running one and working together often, but it can be done and is the proper way to run the NPCs because they are not stupid enough to get themselves stuck in flanking positions on a regular basis, as they know that often means death.

I won't adress the contradictions, but I will point them out. :roll:

Now...your assessment is still not taking into account 6 of 8 squares to Flank. Plus the fact that you suggest that all NPCs need to do is "be played smart", like the PCs, and no Flanking will occur, but that isn't consistant with "playing smart" in my experience.

I play NPCs as if they were my player chartacters and not just obstacles. If I wanted and obstacle, I'd use a door or a wall. They have objectives and goals and, on top of that, usually outnumber the PCs 2:1 minimum, with a drive to kill every one of them. As a result, Sneak Attacks are less risky compared to individuals with one weapons weilded two handed. The latter case opens those attackers up to attacks by virtue of having less defense, so I tend to use them as finishers, coming in after the 2-weapon guys have softened up the party with lower damage attacks or bleed damage. That's when "Mister Big Axe" comes in swinging away. It's a much more dangerous scenario and also serves as a "switcheroo", placing the PCs on gard for sneak attacks to only be faced with a brute that is easier to take down with Finesse attacks and Sneak, but now they still have to contend with the left-over assailants that have been whittling them down - it's a compund threat. I've even used NPCs handling large cats as pets as the finishers. My players hate lions and tigers (lol).

Mixing up move rates and weapon lengths too produces more Flank and out of Flank situations, so I just don't see where it ever occurs less by playing smart; I see it much, much more.

Besides, on of the best used NPC attacker tools is the Multiple Attackers rule...that cumulative bonus can be super nasty, especially coupled with a Sneak attack or more.

Dude, stop focusing on the small stuff and you will understand my point. My point is that when people are comparing Mr. Greatsword and Mr. Sneak Attack, they need to realize that Mr. Sneak Attack will NOT get to sneak attack every round, while Mr. Greatsword will get to attack every round. That's where all this started, but instead you get yourself mixed up in the minutiae of the matter, which is pointless.

 

[Sutek]

Not if he get's sneak atacked.



Look, now you've switched gears and are arguing frequency of blows, and I've said that the 2WC guy (A) gets and extra attack right off the bat for the off hand, and can end up with 8...way more that 2HW guy, and all capable of delivering a Sneak Attack. So it's not really Power Attack boosting the damage of twp-handed weapons to x2, it's more the frequency at which 2HW fighters can pound out that damage, is it?

Every attack in a fist level thief's series can be delivered as a Sneak Attack, without feats. They get 3 at 1st level to the 2HW guy's 1 attack. That's too low a level for comparison, because the Thief clearly has the advantage damage wise, being capable of dealing wpn+2d8/ or 2d6 in a single round.

At eighth level the thief would have 4 attacks, all being capable of delivering a Sneak Attack for wpn+4d8 (because now he could have both weapons as a Sneak Style) compared to the 2HW fighter's 2 attacks, although they hit better and probably with more raw weapon damage each time. Even factoring in Power Attack +5 and x2 to the STR bonus, that could only possibly be a STR 20 (+5), so +15 damage per strike (less than the Thief's average per strike of about wpn+16).

At eleventh level the Thief can get 5 attacks if he's been smart and taken Improved Two-weapon Combat, getting that extra off-hand attack for 5 points of BAB above 6+. All can sneak attack. All deal 6d8 just from the sneak damage, not including the weapon damage. The 2HW fighter can't hope to get that level of damage per blow with Power Attack's x2 STR bonus damage boost.

What makes the 2HW fighter rough to deal with isn't Power Attack, it's Great Cleave (and whatever the feat is that allows the 5ft step withe the cleave). Those are freebie iterative attacks that the 2HW guy gets each time he drops some chump.

But the Thief can take Great Cleave too...and he was getting upwards to 20+ points per strike back around 5th level.

 

[Netherek]

Well put Sutek, nice comparison of the two.

 

[Trodax]

Sutek, this is pretty off-topic for this thread, but I must point out that you seem to be calculating number of attacks for two-weapon fighters in a strange way.

They get 3 at 1st level to the 2HW guy's 1 attack.

No, at 1st level someone fighting with two weapons has 2 attacks.

At eighth level the thief would have 4 attacks

At 8th level (BAB +6/+1) the thief would have 4 attacks if he has taken Improved Two Weapon Combat. He'd have 3 attacks without it.

At eleventh level the Thief can get 5 attacks if he's been smart and taken Improved Two-weapon Combat, getting that extra off-hand attack for 5 points of BAB above 6+.

At 11th level (BAB +8/+3) the thief would still have 4 attacks if he has taken Improved Two Weapon Combat. He'd have 3 attacks without it.

 

[slaughterj]

Not if he get's sneak atacked.



Look, now you've switched gears and are arguing frequency of blows,

You clearly do not understand what I am saying. I am not talking about frequency of blows. I am talking about how often a person with a greatsword gets to attack (which is every round) versus how often a person with sneak attack gets to use sneak attack (which is only some rounds). Here is a quote from earlier in this thread:

Plus, sneak attack occurs some but nowhere near the frequency of Mr. Greatsword wreaking havoc on every round in the combat.

Well, now, that's just utterly false.

I said sneak attack doesn't happen as often as Mr. Greatsword gets to swing (i.e., Mr. Greatsword gets to swing every round while sneak attack will not happen every round). You said that's false. That has been our discussion ever since, but you seem to not understand. Do you deny that Mr. Greatsword swings more than others get to do sneak attack?!?!

Now, moving to your tangent, I understand you think that a person will get more sneak attacks as they get more attacks, but the guy with the greatsword will get more attack as well. But my point still stands, there will be more rounds in which the guy with the greatsword gets to attack than the guy with sneak attack gets to sneak attack. That's my point, nothing about complicated analysis of frequency of blows.

 

[Netherek]

True, Sneak Attacks may not be as frequent as a standard weapon attacks, but sneak attack is free, and the bonus damage gets sick real quick. Not to mention one can use feint to trigger sneak attacks besides flanking and flat-footed. Combined with stunning fist and you have another trigger.

 

[Netherek]

The irony in this discussion is that no one seems to have a problem with light weapons and how they function. They are horribly under powered in comparison to a one hander, especially when power attacking.

Lets look at it...

Assume Str 16, BAB +5

Dagger would be 1d4+3 AP 4 +5 to hit.

Broadsword 1d10+3 AP6 +5 to hit.

Against unarmoured it ends even chance to hit, with 5 and 8 for damage, about double.

Against Leather this drops to 3 and 6, still about double.

Against Leather and helmet DR5 and the damage averages 0 and 5 and max of 2 and 10, a whopping 5 times the dagger.

Lets add in power attack and finesse to the same leather/helmet figures. The dagger finesses and the sword PA's for the amount needed by dagger to bypass so that hit percentages remain the same. The average damage ends up 5 and 10, and a max of 7 and 15 or about double.

This all matches up in comparing 2h to 1h weapons. Sure a 2h is more likely to force an MD save, but a 1h is more likely to do the same in comparison to a light weapon...

 

[Trodax]

This all matches up in comparing 2h to 1h weapons. Sure a 2h is more likely to force an MD save, but a 1h is more likely to do the same in comparison to a light weapon...

Eh...
If we assume a Str 16 guy armed with a dagger, broadsword or greatsword against an umarmored opponent, and with a 50% chance of hitting (so every 10th successful hit will be a critical with these weapons):

Dagger
Regular hit (1d4+3): 0% chance of causing MD
Critical hit (2d4+6): 0% chance of causing MD
Total average: 0% of all successful hits cause MD

Broadsword
Regular hit (1d10+3): 0% chance of causing MD
Critical hit (2d10+6): 28% chance of causing MD
Total average: 9/10*0%+1/10*28%= 2,8% of all successful hits cause MD

Greatsword
Regular hit (2d10+4): 15% chance of causing MD
Critical hit (4d10+8 ): 96,66% chance of causing MD
Total average: 9/10*15%+1/10*96,66%= 23,2% of all successful hits cause MD

So, in this example, the chance of causing MD (assuming you have hit your opponent) goes from 0% for a light weapon, to 2,8% for a one-hander, to 23,2% for a two-hander. Sure, 2,8% is infinitely more than 0%, but I still see the end-result of this being that MD is something that mostly belongs to the two-handers. And if you added a couple of points of Str (or Power Attack!) to the attacker or put some armor on the opponent, the numbers would fall even more in favor of the big guy.

That being said, though, I actually do think a dagger should do more damage. 1d6 would be nice.

 

[jadrax]

Here is my point. How often do the PCs get flanked? Probably fairly rarely, because they work together to avoid it.

Personally I get flanked all the time, and there's not much you can do to avoid it if you opponents are smart and use there tumbling and stealth skills like the PCs do.

Combined with that there are the Feinting rules, the Flat Footed rules, nifty feats (Including hard hands which allows you to always use your sneak attack when unarmed,) and the like, meaning sneak attack die are pretty much always used.

 

[slaughterj]

True, Sneak Attacks may not be as frequent as a standard weapon attacks, but sneak attack is free, and the bonus damage gets sick real quick. Not to mention one can use feint to trigger sneak attacks besides flanking and flat-footed. Combined with stunning fist and you have another trigger.

Stunning Attack is a cool feat to consider for higher level thieves, who can get a few uses a day out of it.

 

[slaughterj]

Here is my point. How often do the PCs get flanked? Probably fairly rarely, because they work together to avoid it.

Personally I get flanked all the time,

Heh, I didn't say all PCs were smart

 

[Sutek]

I am not talking about frequency of blows. I am talking about how often a person with a greatsword gets to attack (which is every round) versus how often a person with sneak attack gets to use sneak attack (which is only some rounds).

So it's not about the number of times one can try to hit, but about the number of one gets to swing? Isn't that the same thing. (lol)

I think you're seeing this at some certain groups of experience levels. The 2HW wielder gets lots of attacks, and can do so every round, but a Sneak Attacker woth two weapons can eventually get more attacks and become more preficient at initiating a Flank position (feats like Mobility and Spring Attack help loads in D&D where Fight on the Run is automatic in Conan).

Now, moving to your tangent, I understand you think that a person will get more sneak attacks as they get more attacks, but the guy with the greatsword will get more attack as well. But my point still stands, there will be more rounds in which the guy with the greatsword gets to attack than the guy with sneak attack gets to sneak attack. That's my point, nothing about complicated analysis of frequency of blows.

I don't see that. It's jsut so easy to get into a Flanking position in Conan, asier than in D&D, that I just can't see where you're getting sneak attack happening less frequently if sneak attackers then get to do it more often on top of that.

Here is my point. How often do the PCs get flanked? Probably fairly rarely, because they work together to avoid it.

Personally I get flanked all the time, and there's not much you can do to avoid it if you opponents are smart and use there tumbling and stealth skills like the PCs do.

Combined with that there are the Feinting rules, the Flat Footed rules, nifty feats (Including hard hands which allows you to always use your sneak attack when unarmed,) and the like, meaning sneak attack die are pretty much always used.

Bang on, jadrax. I hadn't even wanted to veture into the land of cross class Bluff skill and why that'll be lower for brute fighters because of that fact. In essence, it robs targets of Dodge and Parry so Flank positioning isn't even necessary.

BTW, I was off on number of iterative attacks at first level . Not sure what I was thinking. The 4 attacks was supposed to be with the feat though.