Why STR should not multiply damage and for Power Attack

[slaughterj]

I think you're seeing this at some certain groups of experience levels. The 2HW wielder gets lots of attacks, and can do so every round, but a Sneak Attacker woth two weapons can eventually get more attacks and become more preficient at initiating a Flank position (feats like Mobility and Spring Attack help loads in D&D where Fight on the Run is automatic in Conan).

I think you are expecting a large amount of sneak attacks way too often from iterative attacks. The main time you will get that is if you are standing next to your opponent (or within 5' step) at the start of your attacks and your opponent is flatfooted (start of combat) or flanked. You will only get one sneak attack if you have to move, improved feint, etc. Even if you get into position to stick someone repeatedly, you will likely kill them, and then have to move the next round and not get to do it again.

 

[Sutek]

Improved Feint only requires DEX 13 and Combat Expertise, so a Thief can have it by 3rd level. Also, with an off-hand weapon, you get 1 attack if you move plus an additional attack from the off-hand. That's also 6 ranks in Bluff to pull of the Feint, which is pretty easy against most opponents.

If a two-hander kills all targets in his range, he also is impeded by the need to Move to other targets unless he can 5'step, otherwise he only gets his base number of attacks; usually still only 1 at third level.

Even if you get into position to stick someone repeatedly, you will likely kill them, and then have to move the next round and not get to do it again.

Maybe, unless there are other targets within reach. But the same issue applies to a two-handed weapon fighter.

I guess I still just dont' see your point.

 

[slaughterj]

Improved Feint only requires DEX 13 and Combat Expertise, so a Thief can have it by 3rd level. Also, with an off-hand weapon, you get 1 attack if you move plus an additional attack from the off-hand. That's also 6 ranks in Bluff to pull of the Feint, which is pretty easy against most opponents.

For Combat Expertise, you need INT 13 as well, not hard to have, but with DEX and INT high for the feats, plus needing CHA for decent bluff, it means you will likely have no more than STR 12, thus doing minimal damage except if you get in a couple of dice of sneak attack damage, which means you are VERY reliant on sneak attack opportunities to do anything, unlike the Greatsword wielder who is consistently dealing massive damage.

 

[Sutek]

Alright. You win. I'm way off base and completely wrong. Gosh, I can't imaging how I could have been so off-base.

I just dont' have the stamina to keep this up. You dont' have a solid point to pin down, and you keep swinging from "STR x2 from Power Attack is too much" to being able to get more successive strikes with two handed weapons, to not being able to get as many Sneak opportunities as two-handed weapon opportunities.

None of these points you've made have been backed up by any numbers. a +5 Power Attack still gets a -5 to hit, so somone at 11th level with the high BAB progression would get 3 attacks at +6/+1/-4 where as a Thief trying to Sneak would get +8/+3/+3 adding 6d8 damage if he was able to pull it off. Both can Cleave afterwards, and both can get large amounts of damage returns, although there's no weapon that affords a tw-handed weapon fighter with anywhere near 6d8 damage alone.

It doesn't matter one stitch that a Thief "only" has STR 12 if he can eventually deal 6d8 damage per strike, not to mention the abliity to Finesse attack and still wield two weapons to this effect.

I just can't keep up istating the same obvious facts over and over, so I'll conceed and leave this to the rest of you people. :roll:

 

[slaughterj]

Alright. You win. I'm way off base and completely wrong. Gosh, I can't imaging how I could have been so off-base.

I think this is a more subjective area than others, like rules interpretations, so it's not that you are necessarily "wrong" and I am "right," it is more about impressions, because the numbers are pretty hard to run, you have to take a lot into account (movement, # of attacks, AP, Power Attack, frequency of sneak attacks (which can vary by campaign and GM), etc. etc.).

 

[sbarrie]

What might be a nice add/change is to make Defensive Parry be that sacrificing one attack at your highest bonus gets you a bonus to your defense equal to that attack bonus. The Bonus from shields can remain as is (although it doesn't really tell you what the DP shield bonus is actually, does it?).

That's a pretty cool idea.

 

[Foxworthy]

What might be a nice add/change is to make Defensive Parry be that sacrificing one attack at your highest bonus gets you a bonus to your defense equal to that attack bonus. The Bonus from shields can remain as is (although it doesn't really tell you what the DP shield bonus is actually, does it?).

The shield bonus depends on the shield. The descreption of each shield tell you which type of weapon it is considered when being used to attack. I thinkt he buckle is light and the other two are one handed. Then you use the normal bonus given int he feat description accoriding to weapon size.

 

[Netherek]

Here's a PA option that is balanced.

PA bonus matches Str multiplier. What this means is that a 2h will get x1.5, 1h will have a x1, and Off hand 1h will get x.5 the penalty taken to attack.

In this manner the use of two Broads stacks up nicely with that of a Great, and it tones down the shear power of PA. I haven't tested it out completely, but the #'s seem to work. I might consider this as an option.

 

[Trodax]

PA bonus matches Str multiplier. What this means is that a 2h will get x1.5, 1h will have a x1, and Off hand 1h will get x.5 the penalty taken to attack.

The only problem I have with this is that the rounding makes the math a little more complicated. If you are attacking with a two-handed weapon or an off-hand weapon, spending an even number of points on PA (2, 4, 6) is a good idea, while spending an uneven number (1, 3, 5) is a bad idea. Not a big deal, but you'll have to think a little more about what you're doing.

 

[Sutek]

What might be a nice add/change is to make Defensive Parry be that sacrificing one attack at your highest bonus gets you a bonus to your defense equal to that attack bonus. The Bonus from shields can remain as is (although it doesn't really tell you what the DP shield bonus is actually, does it?).

The shield bonus depends on the shield. The descreption of each shield tell you which type of weapon it is considered when being used to attack. I thinkt he buckle is light and the other two are one handed. Then you use the normal bonus given int he feat description accoriding to weapon size.

No. Really?

Re-read what I wrote there. I'm talking about what the Defensive Parry bonus is from a shield might be. This speculative stuff I wrote was based on two-weapon defense, which says that one attack is sacrificed for a +2 or +3 DV bonus and the Special condition is that Shields can be used with the feat also. It doesn't tell you how though. Since shields alread afford a bonus to DV, what bonus does two-weapon defense get you when using a shield?

Presumably, the mention of getting to use two-weapon defense when making a shield bash means that you can attack with your shield and bash an opponent and still get the DV bonus, but the wording is odd, so that's a best cuess.

 

[Sutek]

PA bonus matches Str multiplier. What this means is that a 2h will get x1.5, 1h will have a x1, and Off hand 1h will get x.5 the penalty taken to attack.

The only problem I have with this is that the rounding makes the math a little more complicated. If you are attacking with a two-handed weapon or an off-hand weapon, spending an even number of points on PA (2, 4, 6) is a good idea, while spending an uneven number (1, 3, 5) is a bad idea. Not a big deal, but you'll have to think a little more about what you're doing.

I still say it's just a doubling of the STR bonus in all of this, so I really can't see what the big deal is. That doubling in OGL makes for huge damage, but in Conan it serves to have the randon damage count for more as the doubled STR bonus effectively goes towards mitigating DR.

I just don't see what the conflict is.

I guess if someone could explain why it's a problem, I might see things differently. Has it come up in some situation that the Power Attack x2 multiplier to STR mod when using a 2HW has just ruined things and unhinged the game or something? I just can't imagine it being that big a deal.

 

[Foxworthy]

What might be a nice add/change is to make Defensive Parry be that sacrificing one attack at your highest bonus gets you a bonus to your defense equal to that attack bonus. The Bonus from shields can remain as is (although it doesn't really tell you what the DP shield bonus is actually, does it?).

The shield bonus depends on the shield. The descreption of each shield tell you which type of weapon it is considered when being used to attack. I thinkt he buckle is light and the other two are one handed. Then you use the normal bonus given int he feat description accoriding to weapon size.

No. Really?

Re-read what I wrote there. I'm talking about what the Defensive Parry bonus is from a shield might be. This speculative stuff I wrote was based on two-weapon defense, which says that one attack is sacrificed for a +2 or +3 DV bonus and the Special condition is that Shields can be used with the feat also. It doesn't tell you how though. Since shields alread afford a bonus to DV, what bonus does two-weapon defense get you when using a shield?

Presumably, the mention of getting to use two-weapon defense when making a shield bash means that you can attack with your shield and bash an opponent and still get the DV bonus, but the wording is odd, so that's a best cuess.

Well I'm commenting on two weapon defense and shields... here is it again so you know what the bonus to parry you get from a shield used as a weapon and two weapon defence...

The shield description tells you the type of weapon it is when making attacks. A buckler is a light weapon and the targe and large shield are one handed weapons.

This means when using two weapon defense and a shield as a weapon that the Buckler provides a +2 parry bonus and the large shield and targe provide a +3.

When used as weapons shields are treated as weapons, which is why they have in thier descriptions what type of weapon they are when used to make shield bashes.

Now if you weren't wondering about the bonus that shields get when used as weapons and mixed with two weapon defense you could try to tell me what you are refereing to. As I don't know anything called defensive parry. Though you're post seemed to want the bonus that shields provided when used as a shield bash and two weapon defence. Which I answered above in both my post now.

 

[Netherek]

PA bonus matches Str multiplier. What this means is that a 2h will get x1.5, 1h will have a x1, and Off hand 1h will get x.5 the penalty taken to attack.

The only problem I have with this is that the rounding makes the math a little more complicated. If you are attacking with a two-handed weapon or an off-hand weapon, spending an even number of points on PA (2, 4, 6) is a good idea, while spending an uneven number (1, 3, 5) is a bad idea. Not a big deal, but you'll have to think a little more about what you're doing.

True, it's not kiss like the current RAW. I put it out for those that feel 2h+PA is too powerful...

Generally speaking, any change to it will put the favor in other weapons.