Why is refined fuel so expensive?

[far-trader]

The worlds can't really restrict in the 3I. That (GG's) is Imperial area. If I remember correctly.

Might be somewhere, GT maybe? All I can recall offhand is "The Imperium rules the space between the stars." ...or words to that effect.

Which I've usually seen interpreted, and have myself, to mean the Imperium is hands off on all worlds in a system, including the GG, up to the 100d and excluding the extraterritoriality of the starport (and travel between the starport and 100d for Imperial flagged ships). The locals rule, as long as they don't exceed the treaty terms with the Imperium (which probably includes GG fueling access for IN and IISS ships, though not necessarily civilian Imperial registered ships).

 

[GypsyComet]

Some worlds make skimming explicitly legal, especially systems that either can't or don't want to be bothered to enforce their "mineral rights" or which want to encourage traders.

Sure but, I think we're trying to explain it within the 3I. The worlds can't really restrict in the 3I. That (GG's) is Imperial area. If I remember correctly.

Its a bit fuzzy, given that System Navies exist.

 

[DFW]

Some worlds make skimming explicitly legal, especially systems that either can't or don't want to be bothered to enforce their "mineral rights" or which want to encourage traders.

Sure but, I think we're trying to explain it within the 3I. The worlds can't really restrict in the 3I. That (GG's) is Imperial area. If I remember correctly.

Its a bit fuzzy, given that System Navies exist.

I'm referring to the current version, MGT.

"The Imperial military and other services are paid for from the tax
quotas of worlds and also from interstellar commerce. The Imperium
‘owns space’ beyond the immediate environs of a given world, and
commercial traffic must pass through that space. Revenue from
commercial taxes, license fees and the like go into the Imperial
coffers."

"Under most circumstances world governments have jurisdiction
in military and legal matters out to orbital space, defined as ten
planetary diameters. From there to a hundred diameters is a zone of
shared jurisdiction between the Imperium and the member world.
Beyond one hundred diameters (the normal safe Jump limit) is
Imperial territory."

 

[zozotroll]

Just a comment on the eco damage from fueling. it would seem that if a port provides fuel, it will almost certasinly come from the same place that you would pick it up yourself. So any damage would still occur, just who does it changes. And who you get to charge for it. Of course as has been mentioned, it doesnt have to be real, it only has to have a goverment say so.

Owen

 

[far-trader]

Just a comment on the eco damage from fueling. it would seem that if a port provides fuel, it will almost certasinly come from the same place that you would pick it up yourself.

You have very different player's than I've seen

In my experience it would be just the opposite. The port will almost certainly be getting it from somewhere behind dtons of red tape well vetted for ecological and economic impact, possibly even imported from the GG. The characters on the other hand are likely to not give a frak where they scoop and dash from, as long as they don't get caught...

...a pristine alpine glacier lake, perfect, remote and nobody to catch them.

...the rooftop swimming pool of the local TAS lodge, perfect, nice and handy on the way out from the starport.

...the fire suppression system of the starport landing pads, perfect, just drop our hose while we're here, they'll refill it before there's a need for it, everybody does it.

...etc. etc.

...but generally the middle of any big lake or ocean without a care to check the weather, shipping, or anything. Just land, dip, leave.

 

[far-trader]

...and back to the original question:

Why is refined fuel so expensive?

Taxes.

But why is it the same cost throughout charted space?

Taxes.

But...

Taxes.



It's still broken as soon as you introduce the cheap small fuel purifiers though. Nobody will buy refined fuel. Everybody will have their own purifiers aboard and buy unrefined or skim/dip.

If the Imperium (or whoever) still wants to collect those taxes they'll have to bump up the price of unrefined to the Cr500/ton. And monitor and restrict other sources. Or tax the purifiers to the point where they are no longer the cheap deal they are and the Cr500/ton tax revenue is once again solidly secured as the better deal for those who don't want to risk drive failure and misjump.

 

[Ishmael]

just out of curiosity, just how many dtons of refined fuel would a type A port need per day?
a type 'B'?

on average?

 

[GypsyComet]

just out of curiosity, just how many dtons of refined fuel would a type A port need per day?
a type 'B'?

on average?

About one large can of worms worth.

Traffic volumes (and thus fuel demand) are one of those things that change from one persons interpretation to another.

In the backwater systems, assume that the port is always going to have enough to fill up one Far Trader per Pop *on demand*, at least in theory. I once ran a Hard Times game in which the port's tanks were a pair of 400-ton fuel shuttles. If you needed more than the 350 tons that one shuttle held you either trudged out to the gas giant yourself or waited for the other shuttle to get back.

On significant trade partner worlds (HiPop, HiTL, Rich, Ind, or Ag) that aren't, for whatever reason, the local hub, you can probably multiply that by 10 or 20 for the Downport, and about the same for the Highport. If a system of this sort doesn't have a Downport, still take the two together and put it all in the Highport.

On hub worlds, take the multiple up to about 50 as a minimum on both downport and highport, and be prepared to multiply the Highport numbers by a lot more than that.

The numbers do seem low, but this is both a functional minimum (not the average you wanted) and also *per day*.

 

[DFW]

Remember, ships "check in" when they arrive in system. It isn't always an accurate jump either. So, "This is Far Trader Cheapo arriving from (J-2 distant system) time to star port is 14 hours."

So, the port knows that he'll be filling up in the next couple of days. They start refining or stock unrefined if they don't have enough...

 

[rust]

While it would be possible to calculate traffic and trade volume
of a planet with the system from GURPS Traveller Far Trader,
there is no connection between this volume and the type of the
port in the Traveller universe - a type C port can have a lot mo-
re traffic and trade volume, and therefore use more fuel, than
a type A port, which can be in the middle of nowhere and see
no ship for months.

 

[Ishmael]

Thats what I thought
total disconnect between starport "type" and actual volume serviced.
I'll continue my thoughts when I have better information......

sigh
when will Dynasty be done?

 

[GypsyComet]

Well, not *total* disconnect, since not all port types are condusive to high traffic. If there's enough traffic and no social slants against it locally, an E port will turn into a D port when the first Quonset hut goes up. It'll turn into a C port when they park a tanker or fuel shuttle nearby.

They'll need a guy with a wrench or two before it can become a B, though.

 

[rust]

Well, not *total* disconnect, since not all port types are condusive to high traffic. If there's enough traffic and no social slants against it locally, an E port will turn into a D port when the first Quonset hut goes up. It'll turn into a C port when they park a tanker or fuel shuttle nearby.

True, but there seem to be quite some cases where the planet's
UWP hints at a potentially high trade volume, but the starport is
of a type which would make that volume of trade impossible.

This can of course be explained away, perhaps the planet is just
the home of an extremely isolationist and xenophobic people, but
the plausibility of such explanations suffers somewhat when the
number of extreme cases is high.

 

[GypsyComet]

It is possible to take the UWP a bit more literally, at least in the case of Imperial systems. A world may have decided to temporarily cut out the commerce middleman, so that the Imperial port is pretty sad, but there are private ports all over. It isn't a situation that will last, mind you...

The other dodge is, of course, the Second Survey itself. The data in a UWP is a snapshot from thirty years before the start of play, if not earlier. The Survey showed a world potentially ripe for an explosion of commerce. If it happened, that thirty year old data is now inaccurate. If it *didn't* happen, then there are factors not seen in the UWP that kept it from happening.

 

[DFW]

The other dodge is, of course, the Second Survey itself. The data in a UWP is a snapshot from thirty years before the start of play, if not earlier.

That doesn't wash either as Imperial Ports WILL report their status and the systems being computerized, it WILL be up to date at the sector level. It only takes a few weeks via X-Boat routes...

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

...and back to the original question:

Why is refined fuel so expensive?

Taxes.

But why is it the same cost throughout charted space?

Taxes.

But...

Taxes.



It's still broken as soon as you introduce the cheap small fuel purifiers though. Nobody will buy refined fuel. Everybody will have their own purifiers aboard and buy unrefined or skim/dip.

If the Imperium (or whoever) still wants to collect those taxes they'll have to bump up the price of unrefined to the Cr500/ton. And monitor and restrict other sources. Or tax the purifiers to the point where they are no longer the cheap deal they are and the Cr500/ton tax revenue is once again solidly secured as the better deal for those who don't want to risk drive failure and misjump.

Or you keep the tax low on refined fuel. The 3I is built on trade, the best way to encourage trade is to keep taxes, duties etc low, lower tax on refined fuel keep shipping costs (and ultimately cost to consumer) down, so a higher volume of trade, which then brings in more actual tax revenue even though the levy per ton is less.

There is a shrine to Adam Smith in Capital.

Egil

 

[atpollard]

If I visit a gas station in Texas or Oklahoma, I doubt that I will find pumps offering the choice of buying refined Gasoline or unrefined crude oil (in case I wanted to refine my own gas to avoil federal taxes).

Why would you expect a starport to sell both unrefined and refined? Unrefined fuel is available where there is no local ability to refine it. Once refined becomes available, unrefined is no longer sold.

YMMV

 

[DFW]

If I visit a gas station in Texas or Oklahoma, I doubt that I will find pumps offering the choice of buying refined Gasoline or unrefined crude oil

Are cars manufactured with integral fuel refineries?

Why would you expect a starport to sell both unrefined and refined?

Because, "The market is always right." Econ 100.

 

[far-trader]

If I visit a gas station in Texas or Oklahoma, I doubt that I will find pumps offering the choice of buying refined Gasoline or unrefined crude oil

Are cars manufactured with integral fuel refineries?

...by the same token:

Should starships be able to carry integral fuel refineries?

 

[DFW]

...by the same token:

Should starships be able to carry integral fuel refineries?

Of course. Should sub's be able to carry "refiners" separate H2O into pure Hyd & pure O2 at TL 6?