Why is refined fuel so expensive?

[BFalcon]

True... but not if it was the SPA (StarPort Authority) that ordered it... They run all the subsidised stations in the 3I...

Shipping costs would still go up. It just wouldn't give an advantage to one system. The companies wishing to ship would still pay higher prices to the starships...

Yep, agreed... the smaller ships just make a small saving in refining their own fuel to help their profit margin...

Sorry, I thought you meant that each system would be disadvantaged.

Although, that advantage only really comes into play when processing your own fuel when doing a multi-jump chain, I think... otherwise you end up with a wasted week of travel, which for a Free Trader, amounts to around 6k maintenance and life support costs, plus the lost week of trading's worth of mortgage cost (forgot those before). So if you're paying 100,000 Cr per month, you'd also be wasting 25,000Cr in going to fetch your own fuel. Processing the unrefined fuel at a port is something that your Referee is going to have to rule on - I suspect that most ports wouldn't allow fuel to be processed on board and would probably insist on fuelling just before departure if buying refined fuel, so eliminating unsafe fire risks. You could even go so far as to extract fuel from ships, crediting them with the fuel removed, to ensure that ships have as little fuel as possible on board while docked, if you want your local port controllers to be extra paranoid.

I suppose it's possible that the largest companies might, on the more common routes, maintain their own station/tanker in-system for processing their own ships...

 

[DFW]

Yep, agreed... the smaller ships just make a small saving in refining their own fuel to help their profit margin...

Sorry, I thought you meant that each system would be disadvantaged.

Although, that advantage only really comes into play when processing your own fuel when doing a multi-jump chain, I think... otherwise you end up with a wasted week of travel, which for a Free Trader, amounts to around 6k maintenance and life support costs, plus the lost week of trading's worth of mortgage cost (forgot those before). So if you're paying 100,000 Cr per month, you'd also be wasting 25,000Cr in going to fetch your own fuel.

Exactly. I think far trader broke this down a while ago (maybe someone else). It just doesn't pay to do the GG refuel for a Tramp. Only, buy unrefined and process in port while doing other money making activities.

Good money work up BTW.

 

[rust]

Ah ... why exactly do starship captains waste days to travel
to a gas giant to refuel when there is water or at least ice on
almost every much closer inner planet of a system ?

I mean, if time is money and all that, I would refuel from the
polar ice caps of the system's equivalent of Mars, and not go
all the way to the system's equivalent of Jupiter.

 

[GypsyComet]

Between the laws of the system, low water worlds really not appreciating freeloaders stealing their water, and not everyone is carrying a mosquito rig for harvesting ice, the port's supply looks more and more attractive.

 

[rust]

Between the laws of the system, low water worlds really not appreciating freeloaders stealing their water, and not everyone carrying a mosquito rig for harvesting ice, the port's supply looks more and more attractive.

Most planets in a given system will be uninhabited, and almost
every Traveller starship has a laser powerful enough to melt
ice.

 

[far-trader]

...I think far trader broke this down a while ago (maybe someone else).

I have, and expect just about anyone who has a played a mortgaged Free-Trader under CT has as well

The whole thing hinges on the classic arrangement of a standard sun habitable zone trade mainworld with the GG farther out though. Other arrangements, like the trade mainworld being a GG moon, may change that.

Yep, buy unrefined in port and clean it yourself pays, but creates it's own problems. Is unrefined available in Class A and B ports? If so then they'll never sell another drop of refined fuel, at least not at the Cr400/ton markup. So do Class A and B ports operate a monopoly and only sell refined? Forcing the tramps to spend more while the big haulers don't have to bother with the purifiers onboard* since they don't bother going to the Class C and D ports with their suspect fuel supplies?

* except of course that they would save even more money, nope the only way I found to justify the cost of refined fuel being so much higher is my method on the first page once purifiers are introduced everybody will have them and nobody will be able to sell refined fuel for more than Cr100/ton

And somebody mentioned the big lines setting up their own purifiers in poorer systems. As it happens the CT Spinward Marches Campaign describes just such a practice by Al Morai (line) for the two(?) Class C ports it has to link through.

 

[GypsyComet]

Between the laws of the system, low water worlds really not appreciating freeloaders stealing their water, and not everyone carrying a mosquito rig for harvesting ice, the port's supply looks more and more attractive.

Most planets in a given system will be uninhabited, and almost
every Traveller starship has a laser powerful enough to melt
ice.

A fair assumption, but you are still:
-diverting to a different world than the main
-taking quite a lot of time to play around with a suction hose
-working while a laser big enough to remove even smoking boots is pointed waaay to close to you

Even the gas giant dive starts to look efficient. This was to save money, right?

As for worlds and moons being unoccupied, that doesn't coincide with my view of five thousand years of space travel and colonization, but we've agreed to differ. Under prior system generation models used in Traveller, just about any rock with water present was going to have people, even if only a few. Heaven forbid you pick a military base to harvest ice from...

In my opinion, any world that cares enough to have SDBs wandering around is going to consider ice harvesting dodgy at best ("Who you hiding from?") and theft or ecological damage at worst.

 

[rust]

A fair assumption, but you are still:
-diverting to a different world than the main
-taking quite a lot of time to play around with a suction hose
-working while a laser big enough to remove even smoking boots is pointed waaay to close to you

Since I see it as an alternative to gas giant refueling, not to refueling
at a starport, "diverting to a different world than the main" and "taking
quite a lot of time ..." would be the same with gas giant refueling, and
moving around in a gas giant's radiation belt is probably not less dange-
rous than melting ice with a laser.

As for worlds and moons being unoccupied, that doesn't coincide with my view of five thousand years of space travel and colonization ...

This is one of Traveller's mysteries, because despite those five thousand
years of space travel and colonization there are still lots of systems whe-
re either the technology level or the population level of the main world is
so low that it would be impossible to establish bases on other planets of
the system and operate them.

 

[Ishmael]

For water, minuscule. Mostly O2. For what you get from a GG, the impurities have other industrial uses. So, not an issue.

Moving parts are VERY minimal. The metals are already corrosion resistant. Metalurgy moves forward 5 TL's from now. That almost as far as we are from ancient Egypt. And that has to do with Lhyd how?

Nope, in my game, most LHyd is used as coolant and expelled in space. Most Jump Lhyd is used for the bubble.

1. You're right. the waste will have industrial uses, but then again everything has industrial uses...even my kitchen garbage. The thing is; will it be cost effective to use this as a source of industrial materials when compared to other sources? If not, then industry won't buy it and it must be got rid of somehow...either pay to haul it off, or dump it.
On the plus side, your idea can lead to the description of an entire chemical industrial complex similar to what exists in Pasedena, Tx. complete with all the adventure hooks that implies ( chemical refineries are dangerous places to do things in ).

2. In my experience. the more advanced the technology, the more complex with more moving parts with tighter tolerances there will be unless the function can be done with solid state equipment. Just as an F-14c has more moving parts than a Sopwith Camel, a high tech ship will have more moving parts than an Apollo rocket.

3. This statement contradicts the statement "It is P-P fusion using H2. Nothing else."
But at least you understand that the 'fuel' used by ships is predominantly used for non-fuel purposes.
As a coolant, liquid H2 isn't that great. Sure its used for mid-power dynamos* and all and has great specific heat capacity, but it is also far less dense than pretty much anything else, so the great specific heat capacity isn't much help. Ammonia, has about 1/3 the cp of H2 but is 121 times as dense so that a given volume of liquid ammonia will have ~40 times the cooling capacity of an equal volume of liquid H2. And be easier to handle too.

Jump bubbles have not been part of any Trav version that I know of until enough people noticed that the hydrogen fuel usage didn't match power plant outputs and folks started waving hands to explain where all that H2 went that was used. Rather than go that route, I say its almost all coolant or else its reaction mass for thrusters. And that it really isn't pure hydrogen, except for the tiny amount that is used in the fusion PP.
Hydrogen 'fuel' is a game abstraction for ease of play.
--------------------------

I see no worries about ships jumping in near an outer GG where fuel is plentiful. Orbital facilities around the GG is the main starport. Its outside the star's jump shadow ( okay..I use gravity instead of diameter for jump shadows and a star's shadow can and does extend out several AU's imtu ). This allows for a good amount of regular in-system traffic ( non-jump ) that runs much as freight trains do, to bring goods out that far and return with imported goods to the main world.
But thats a setting issue and mine is not yours.

Personally, I think the issue comes from Trav's over simplified economics where things have set prices regardless of other issues. Supply and demand mean nothing. Its usually good enough for small ship trading without much effort, but can give weird results if used much beyond that.


* H2 is used as a coolant in mid-power dynamos due to its wonderful heat transfer characteristics as well as its low viscosity which prevents windage losses...

 

[DFW]

1. You're right. the waste will have industrial uses, but then again everything has industrial uses...even my kitchen garbage. The thing is; will it be cost effective to use this as a source of industrial materials when compared to other sources? If not, then industry won't buy it and it must be got rid of somehow...either pay to haul it off, or dump it.
On the plus side, your idea can lead to the description of an entire chemical industrial complex similar to what exists in Pasedena, Tx. complete with all the adventure hooks that implies ( chemical refineries are dangerous places to do things in ).

2. In my experience. the more advanced the technology, the more complex with more moving parts with tighter tolerances there will be unless the function can be done with solid state equipment. Just as an F-14c has more moving parts than a Sopwith Camel, a high tech ship will have more moving parts than an Apollo rocket.

For mechanical devices. Think calculating machines vs. solid state computers. Trav ships have NO maneuver jets and the like. For what it is, it'll have fewer moving parts.

3. This statement contradicts the statement "It is P-P fusion using H2. Nothing else."
But at least you understand that the 'fuel' used by ships is predominantly used for non-fuel purposes.
As a coolant, liquid H2 isn't that great. Sure its used for mid-power dynamos* and all and has great specific heat capacity, but it is also far less dense than pretty much anything else, so the great specific heat capacity isn't much help. Ammonia, has about 1/3 the cp of H2 but is 121 times as dense so that a given volume of liquid ammonia will have ~40 times the cooling capacity of an equal volume of liquid H2. And be easier to handle too.

Doesn't matter. Trav ships need to refuel in the wild with H2. So, not having other ready sources of coolant. That's what they use.

Jump bubbles have not been part of any Trav version that I know of until enough people noticed that the hydrogen fuel usage didn't match power plant outputs and folks started waving hands to explain where all that H2 went that was used. Rather than go that route, I say its almost all coolant or else its reaction mass for thrusters. And that it really isn't pure hydrogen, except for the tiny amount that is used in the fusion PP.
Hydrogen 'fuel' is a game abstraction for ease of play.

In MGT, that's how it works (J- bubble). Also, the ships don't have reaction thrusters so, coolant is the way to go.

Personally, I think the issue comes from Trav's over simplified economics where things have set prices regardless of other issues. Supply and demand mean nothing. Its usually good enough for small ship trading without much effort, but can give weird results if used much beyond that.

No kidding. Although, nothing moves more than 2 parsec in Trav using small ships. Even on the "frontier" where there isn't large freighters. :lol:

 

[Ishmael]

For mechanical devices. Think calculating machines vs. solid state computers. Trav ships have NO maneuver jets and the like. For what it is, it'll have fewer moving parts.

Doesn't matter. Trav ships need to refuel in the wild with H2. So, not having other ready sources of coolant. That's what they use.

In MGT, that's how it works (J- bubble). Also, the ships don't have reaction thrusters so, coolant is the way to go.

Ships will have an awful lot of mechanical devices. Sorry, but not everything can be made solid state.
And while OTU ships might be reactionless, ATU can use 'realistic' thrusters so ships can have maneuver jets and the like. Even in the OTU such things exist.

So, wilderness refueling gets H2 as coolant, which is less than optimal, and the greatest part of the ship's 'fuel' use, Maybe 'refined fuel' is mostly high quality, effective coolant such as ammonia? Better coolant leads to better reliability and fewer breakdowns due to overheating?

Yes, its j-bubbles in MgT...a pity. I think the explanation is lacking and unbelievable, but thats my opinion. That explanation came about when enough people said "WTF! What the heck is all that hydrogen being used for? Where is it going?? ".
Correction...ships can have reaction thrusters.
But yes, coolant is the only reasonable explanation.

lol
unrefined fuel is the use of hydrogen as a coolant.
Refined fuel is using a better coolant, such as ammonia, for cooling/ heat management.
Not exactly what people expect or want, eh?

 

[DFW]

Ships will have an awful lot of mechanical devices. Sorry, but not everything can be made solid state.

MUCH more can than you would expect.

And while OTU ships might be reactionless, ATU can use 'realistic' thrusters so ships can have maneuver jets and the like. Even in the OTU such things exist.

Sure, low TL ships.

Maybe 'refined fuel' is mostly high quality, effective coolant such as ammonia? Better coolant leads to better reliability and fewer breakdowns due to overheating?

No. Not readily available from H2O. And very little in GG's.

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

Very interesting, and far too many posts to quote from, so this is where I am at now
1. Yes to everybody, refuelling a FreeTrader at a gas giant and then travelling to the main world is an expensive waste of time if you can re-fuel there, no dispute.
2. I could see a case for ships in class A or B, and some C ports being told not to run fuel processors in port, but remember that this is pretty safe technology in trav (there is no "roll 2 on 2d6, whoops, it all goes bang", perhaps there should be :wink: ). Much harder to believe that a starport will stop a ship moving into orbit, processing fuel, and then departing. Piracy fears might lead to specified areas/orbits to do this, but would not stop the practice.
3. Many of the points justifying the high cost of refined fuel (transport, collection etc) apply equally to unrefined (perhaps the cost of unrefined is too low? ), what I was interested about is the 400% mark up on made by selling refined fuel, when the fuel processors are cheap and efficient (see initial post, and huge industial refineries would be much more efficient).
4. I like the ideas about different fuel grades, but don't want to introduce those ideas mid campaign.
5. I do not believe for a minute that large corporations would be prepared to fork out so much money on something they can process so cheaply themselves, look at the Super friegnter in HG, it needs 34000t of fuel, thats 3.4MCr each time it fuels up with unrefined, 17MCr with refined. (Luckily it carries 850 tons of processors, able to purify all fuel in 2 days). The owner of such a vessel will, perhaps with others, set up facilities in ports they will use to purchase much cheaper refined fuel, anything to keep costs down.
6. Basically, I think that if 100Cr/ton is the standard price for unrefined, 150cr/ton is appropriate for refined, the producers make a profit, the starports get their cut, and trade contiues to flow swifly and cheaply, keeping the 3rd Imperium in business

Egil

 

[BFalcon]

Very interesting, and far too many posts to quote from, so this is where I am at now
1. Yes to everybody, refuelling a FreeTrader at a gas giant and then travelling to the main world is an expensive waste of time if you can re-fuel there, no dispute.

Fair enough...

2. I could see a case for ships in class A or B, and some C ports being told not to run fuel processors in port, but remember that this is pretty safe technology in trav (there is no "roll 2 on 2d6, whoops, it all goes bang", perhaps there should be :wink: ). Much harder to believe that a starport will stop a ship moving into orbit, processing fuel, and then departing. Piracy fears might lead to specified areas/orbits to do this, but would not stop the practice.

I think it all comes down to whether you think the SPA will allow them to run their powerplants continuously for days on end while docked. I would also remind you, having been reading up on the Starport book, that power plants are taken offline for maintenance and essential systems kept running by hooking up to the power grid. Running fuel purifiers would probably not qualify as "essential systems" (those would probably be the on-board computers only, since the life support systems would also be maintained at the same time). Incidently, the book does confirm that they import fuel first and then refine it for storage in the tanks, so I'm guessing that the transfer of unrefined fuel is considered safer than refined? Not sure on that in some cases...

As for cluttering orbit, I repeat what I said earlier - what goes for one pilot, goes for more - and in systems with Class A, B or C Starports, if they allowed one tramp freighter to do it, then the orbit would suddenly become clogged. It is quite possibly congested already, with ships waiting to dock (see the starport book for the rules on delays in docking and refuelling and you start to see how busy the ports are), ships departing, orbital facilities owned by (or rented from) the planetary government, satellites, orbital advertising (I'm damned sure the larger corporations won't miss that trick), repair slipways for the local ships and other facilities... you really think they'd want 100+ freighters of all sizes all sat waiting for their fuel to process?

3. Many of the points justifying the high cost of refined fuel (transport, collection etc) apply equally to unrefined (perhaps the cost of unrefined is too low? ), what I was interested about is the 400% mark up on made by selling refined fuel, when the fuel processors are cheap and efficient (see initial post, and huge industial refineries would be much more efficient).

Remember that those refining systems will need running costs, rent and taxes paid on them, unless they're a large ship, in which case security, maintenance and life support costs all add up instead. The fuel purifiers on a ship may be free, but the ship is not.

4. I like the ideas about different fuel grades, but don't want to introduce those ideas mid campaign.

Don't blame you, to be honest.

5. I do not believe for a minute that large corporations would be prepared to fork out so much money on something they can process so cheaply themselves, look at the Super friegnter in HG, it needs 34000t of fuel, thats 3.4MCr each time it fuels up with unrefined, 17MCr with refined. (Luckily it carries 850 tons of processors, able to purify all fuel in 2 days). The owner of such a vessel will, perhaps with others, set up facilities in ports they will use to purchase much cheaper refined fuel, anything to keep costs down.

Yes, but remember that the ship also carries 50,000 tons of cargo, so would only need to make an extra 270 Cr per ton to pay for the refined fuel, but would have to pay 202,560Cr over the two days extra it would need to be docked or in space (and hence vunerable if it loitered outside the 100d area), so the saving would be less (true, you could factor in the 100d trip's time too to help reduce that). Remember also that these ships would need (as I said above) to down their powerplants for routine maintenance and would also need their life support and waste systems flushed as well as swapping cargos (the cargo would almost certainly be swapped over with cargo waiting in the warehouse since there'd almost certainly be a corporate broker in the station to handle the buying and selling for a ship that size). Therefore, as soon as it is loaded, the company would probably want to undock and get the ship moving.

There's also the speed of refuelling to consider - each fuel nozzle, according Starports, transfers fuel at the rate of 1 ton per minute... that time would probably also mean that the powerplant, for safety reasons, may need to be shut down, but certainly systems that refine that fuel would probably need to be and that freighter you quoted takes 34,000 tons of fuel... that's 566 hours of refuelling... so you'd need a whole bank of refuelling nozzles to do it - even assuming 10 fuel pipes, it'd take 2.4 days! By that time, you'd have reloaded the cargo and be ready to depart, unless you really wanted to wait another couple of days for the fuel to process...

I also suspect (as a sidenote) that the planetary authorities may, in this case, object if (say) 10 of those all refuel at the gas giant per month... 340,000 tons of unrefined fuel per month is going to put a dent in that planet after a while... and if they (either directly or using a fleet (thinking 30+) of tankers) refuel from a planetary fuel source, they'll definitely put a dent in it. That's some scary figures...

Each tanker, btw, costs 14,000Cr per month to run... so those 300 tankers (10 refilling at the fuel source, 10 in transit and 10 refuelling the ship at any one time) would cost around 140,000Cr (+ wages) - and would be needed since I'm not sure if it's not too large to dock... (unless it scoops its own fuel from the GG).

6. Basically, I think that if 100Cr/ton is the standard price for unrefined, 150cr/ton is appropriate for refined, the producers make a profit, the starports get their cut, and trade contiues to flow swifly and cheaply, keeping the 3rd Imperium in business

Egil

I'd say that you may be moving the fuel prices in the wrong direction - without wasting time doing surveys to find new fuel sources, getting planetary permissions to extract fuel (otherwise you'd have ships queuing up to extract what is otherwise good drinking water) or going to the gas giant, I'd suggest that unrefined on tap would actually cost more (unless the SPA is actually subsidising that aspect of the fuel, in which case that might explain why it's relatively cheap) at the Class A starports.

BTW if a fuel scoop can scoop all the fuel needed in 6 hours, watch out for those superfreighters... if one of those scoops and you're in the way, I don't think it'd notice much (340,000tons in under 6 hours!)

 

[Ishmael]

Who says that the big megacorp shippers pay the 500?
Maybe that price is for the pc level ships which are minnows in an imperial pond.
I do like the idea that such fuel processing could be akin to the huge chemical refineries on present day earth.
I'm not sure about the refining rate of 20 dtons fuel processed per day per dton of processor. It really would take huge plants to keep up with demand.
Huge plants could do industrial stuff with the waste, but could small ( tiny ) amounts from on-board processors? or perhaps such stuff could be sold to middlemen like those who collect small amounts of recyclables and pass on in large lots to corporations... a new career in startown, perhaps akin to the old Vargr skill of 'scrounging' in a way.

 

[BFalcon]

Who says that the big megacorp shippers pay the 500?
Maybe that price is for the pc level ships which are minnows in an imperial pond.
I do like the idea that such fuel processing could be akin to the huge chemical refineries on present day earth.
I'm not sure about the refining rate of 20 dtons fuel processed per day per dton of processor. It really would take huge plants to keep up with demand.
Huge plants could do industrial stuff with the waste, but could small ( tiny ) amounts from on-board processors? or perhaps such stuff could be sold to middlemen like those who collect small amounts of recyclables and pass on in large lots to corporations... a new career in startown, perhaps akin to the old Vargr skill of 'scrounging' in a way.

The starport processors can process 500 tons per day, but they're shared out between all the ships docked or the tanks that need refilling.

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

I think it all comes down to whether you think the SPA will allow them to run their powerplants continuously for days on end while docked. I would also remind you, having been reading up on the Starport book, that power plants are taken offline for maintenance and essential systems kept running by hooking up to the power grid. Running fuel purifiers would probably not qualify as "essential systems" (those would probably be the on-board computers only, since the life support systems would also be maintained at the same time). Incidently, the book does confirm that they import fuel first and then refine it for storage in the tanks, so I'm guessing that the transfer of unrefined fuel is considered safer than refined? Not sure on that in some cases...

As for cluttering orbit, I repeat what I said earlier - what goes for one pilot, goes for more - and in systems with Class A, B or C Starports, if they allowed one tramp freighter to do it, then the orbit would suddenly become clogged. It is quite possibly congested already, with ships waiting to dock (see the starport book for the rules on delays in docking and refuelling and you start to see how busy the ports are), ships departing, orbital facilities owned by (or rented from) the planetary government, satellites, orbital advertising (I'm damned sure the larger corporations won't miss that trick), repair slipways for the local ships and other facilities... you really think they'd want 100+ freighters of all sizes all sat waiting for their fuel to process?

The power plant issue will vary, captal ships will be able to turn off part of their power plant for maintence while leaving the rest running. For a small vessel, the power plant will only be off line for part of the stay in port. However, I can see DIY processing being forbidden in many ports.

I don't see the issue of congestion as being such an issue, there is an awful lot of sky out there, but, once you have reduced the price of refined fuel to a market level, then the need to DIY will go away.

Egil

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

Yes, but remember that the ship also carries 50,000 tons of cargo, so would only need to make an extra 270 Cr per ton to pay for the refined fuel, but would have to pay 202,560Cr over the two days extra it would need to be docked or in space (and hence vunerable if it loitered outside the 100d area), so the saving would be less (true, you could factor in the 100d trip's time too to help reduce that). Remember also that these ships would need (as I said above) to down their powerplants for routine maintenance and would also need their life support and waste systems flushed as well as swapping cargos (the cargo would almost certainly be swapped over with cargo waiting in the warehouse since there'd almost certainly be a corporate broker in the station to handle the buying and selling for a ship that size). Therefore, as soon as it is loaded, the company would probably want to undock and get the ship moving.

Yes, all the more incentive to keep costs down, its a cut throat commercial world out there, and paying less than 500Cr for refined fuel will help. Buying cheaper refined fuel will be preferable, and should be easy considering the relatively inexpensive nature of the fuel processors.

These huge vessels will be able to multitask, replaceing life support, flushing waste, changing cargo and processing fuel. At times parts of some systems will be off line, but there is plenty of back up.

Egil

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

the fuel prices in the wrong direction - without wasting time doing surveys to find new fuel sources, getting planetary permissions to extract fuel (otherwise you'd have ships queuing up to extract what is otherwise good drinking water) or going to the gas giant, I'd suggest that unrefined on tap would actually cost more (unless the SPA is actually subsidising that aspect of the fuel, in which case that might explain why it's relatively cheap) at the Class A starports.

BTW if a fuel scoop can scoop all the fuel needed in 6 hours, watch out for those superfreighters... if one of those scoops and you're in the way, I don't think it'd notice much (340,000tons in under 6 hours!)

I think a strong case has been made by a number of these posts that the fuel price for unrefined should be higher, but the processing costs should not add 400% to the price, even then.

The fuel scoop I suppose that the scoops could be relatively small, but the velocity of the ship allows a lot to be collected.

Not here, but I think your point about transfer rates of fuel (1ton/minute) has hit an issue, the only way around it would be for a number of huge hoses to be used for capital ships, and an amendment to "Starports" !

Egil

 

[far-trader]

Very interesting, and far too many posts to quote from, so this is where I am at now...

2. I could see a case for ships... being told not to run fuel processors in port...

Frankly I can't, in any port. It could be the case but reasons would have to be invented. Nothing in the rules suggests any problems with it as you note.

Much harder for me believe (opposite to yourself) that starports will permit loitering in orbit for the purpose. Get in or get out, or you're just in the way up there and chewing into valuable monitoring resources. If any extra-atmo purifying is done it will be while underway to eliminate that and save time for the ship. Time is money and loitering in orbit is a waste of time.

3. Many of the points justifying the high cost of refined fuel (transport, collection etc) apply equally to unrefined (perhaps the cost of unrefined is too low? ), what I was interested about is the 400% mark up on made by selling refined fuel, when the fuel processors are cheap and efficient (see initial post, and huge industial refineries would be much more efficient).

My answers above address this. The best yet that I've seen. The cost differences do not apply equally to unrefined and do justify the 400% markup under my definitions. Efficiencies of scale do not necessarily translate to cheaper.

4. I like the ideas about different fuel grades, but don't want to introduce those ideas mid campaign.

That's a pity. From what I'm seeing it really is the best explanation. The simplest. The least disturbing to the setting (whatever your setting, OTU or other). And it answers your initial post and thread topic, rather than changing everything to make the question moot.

5. I do not believe for a minute that large corporations would be prepared to fork out so much money on something they can process so cheaply themselves...

Under my answer they may or may not. First it is not cheap, even for them. If they are large enough then yes they can and probably do set up their own refineries and realize a cost savings. They may even be the defacto distributor for the starport and who you pay to get it when you fill up your Free-Trader. Even if they don't they'll probably have long term contracts and buy in such quantities as to get a discounted rate. Just like the real world.

6. Basically, I think that if 100Cr/ton is the standard price for unrefined, 150cr/ton is appropriate for refined, the producers make a profit, the starports get their cut, and trade contiues to flow swifly and cheaply, keeping the 3rd Imperium in business.

Entirely your choice of course but I think you're overlooking a number of issues. Perhaps they won't be important in your game, and in the end you should do what works for you

I think you mentioned something about not wanting to change things on your players in mid game. Quite understandable but I don't believe my suggested fuel grade definitions do that. Your sudden huge price change does, to my way of thinking at least. Won't the players suddenly wonder, "If refined fuel is so cheap why were we wasting all that time and space messing about with skimming and purifying? We could have been making more trips and trades with more room for cargo."

Unless your players have always had a ship with a purifier and never paid for refined fuel. Even then it could just be they've been lucky in avoiding breakdowns or misjumps but that could change anytime.

Or maybe they were operating under military protocol, ex-service members, doing all the extra maintenance and additional replacement of parts out of the repair stores, that allow military ships (in MTU) to jump without the same worries as civilian ships but now they've exhausted the ship's locker (not meant to support such for very long) and are themselves exhausted having been doing double or more duty for this long without relief. Said civilian ships not (generally) having the crew or space to do so.

And of course in MTU military ships cost more because they are built to a higher quality and at more expense to stand the use of lower grade fuel, something else the budget conscious civilian ships can't afford. That might be too big a setting change for some though no matter how sensible and realistic it is