Refined Fuel?

[Condottiere]

There's always valued added tax, excise tax, tariffs and duties.

Maybe a license is required separately for distillation, and sale.

 

[Garran]

Any answer needs to be applicable across Charted Space, since the prices are apparently consistent across all of it too.

Explanations involving bureaucratic overhead work in the Imperium or the Consulate, and might work in the Hierate (clan issues allowing), but they fall a bit short in 'wild space', nevermind what would happen if you started talking about multiple licenses in the Vargr Extents.

 

[Condottiere]

The first certainty in Traveller is death.

The second certainty should be taxation, in whatever form, to drain away player characters' coffers or pocket books.

 

[MasterGwydion]

The first certainty in Traveller is death.

The second certainty should be taxation, in whatever form, to drain away player characters' coffers or pocket books.

Bills, sure. Taxation, not so much. If I want taxes, I'll live My real life. That is one reason I prefer playing outside of "civilized space" Outside of the Imperium, Consulate, Confederation, etc. Dealing with only balkanized planets, single world polities, and non-SPA Starports. Plus, I tend to prefer sandbox games. If a party somehow ends up with too much money, We just figure out as a group how to use the money or have the money siphoned away from the group to further whatever story the players want to play. As a GM in other settings or as a Ref in Traveller, I am not sure that I have ever used taxes as a way of "forcing" My players to be poor. Although, I have also never needed a stick to beat My players with either. Normally, they come up with enough crazy plans that need to be financed, that having too much money isn't an issue unless all the PCs want to do is Spec trading, but even that has associated costs such as repairs after a pirate attack or a Rival/Enemy undercutting their prices, or only being able to buy Refined Fuel at Class A and B Starports, etc. One of the worst things about being an adult in real life is taxes, so I try and not focus on that aspect of the game. I have found that using Rivals/Enemies or Contacts/Allies, or the Asset System from Pirates of Drinax works well to keep the revenue following out of their pockets as well...lol...

 

[Reynard]

I have frequently designed commercial vessels that run exclusively between starports. They do not have purifiers on board. They reach their destination and refuel as quickly as possible as freight and passengers are transferred. No waiting days or weeks refining fuel in the port.

Remember also a system has a right to restrict wilderness refueling at gas giants, world water sources or even ice belts. You want fuel, you go to the station.

 

[Condottiere]

If you jump out of system, it sort of removes the fuel from the water cycle, and that's how you end up with large intestinal parasites, Sandworms.

As regards taxation (in whatever form), the need to pay operating costs tends to drive the plot along.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I have frequently designed commercial vessels that run exclusively between starports. They do not have purifiers on board. They reach their destination and refuel as quickly as possible as freight and passengers are transferred. No waiting days or weeks refining fuel in the port.

Remember also a system has a right to restrict wilderness refueling at gas giants, world water sources or even ice belts. You want fuel, you go to the station.

My OP was only in regards to at Starports, not spaceports or wilderness refueling, because you are right on all counts with regards to other variables being involved.

 

[MasterGwydion]

If you jump out of system, it sort of removes the fuel from the water cycle, and that's how you end up with large intestinal parasites, Sandworms.

As regards taxation (in whatever form), the need to pay operating costs tends to drive the plot along.

The Spice must flow!

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

YMMV but I think the entire idea of Refined fuel should have been thrown out when Traveller introduced the Fuel Processors and made them so small and cheap back in 1980.

The original 3 LBB's did not have Fuel Purifiers, and the chance of misjump was a bit higher using unrefined fuel, so it was definitely a risk-reward situation on using unrefined fuel. Once HG introduced cheap, small, efficient Fuel Purifiers, the entire idea of selling refined fuel for so much money was obsolete, but they never changed it. EVERY ship now has a fuel purfier, or should, so selling refined fuel is never going to have the sales to justify doing it, not at 5 times the price.

IMTU, Refined fuel is 100 credits per ton. Available at Class D starports and above (D's may have limited quantities on hand, but can make more). Unrefined fuel is no more than 50 credits per ton, but often free (included in the docking fee).

If you want to keep Refined Fuel at the price listed, then either Purifiers are MUCH bigger, more expensive, AND much slower to process fuel - or so rare/high tech that most ships can't afford them.

The current model is completely broken.

WHEW!

BUT, I really like the idea of having a way to syphon off funds and/or make it harder for the players to go wherever they want...

 

[MasterGwydion]

YMMV but I think the entire idea of Refined fuel should have been thrown out when Traveller introduced the Fuel Processors and made them so small and cheap back in 1980.

The original 3 LBB's did not have Fuel Purifiers, and the chance of misjump was a bit higher using unrefined fuel, so it was definitely a risk-reward situation on using unrefined fuel. Once HG introduced cheap, small, efficient Fuel Purifiers, the entire idea of selling refined fuel for so much money was obsolete, but they never changed it. EVERY ship now has a fuel purfier, or should, so selling refined fuel is never going to have the sales to justify doing it, not at 5 times the price.

IMTU, Refined fuel is 100 credits per ton. Available at Class D starports and above (D's may have limited quantities on hand, but can make more). Unrefined fuel is no more than 50 credits per ton, but often free (included in the docking fee).

If you want to keep Refined Fuel at the price listed, then either Purifiers are MUCH bigger, more expensive, AND much slower to process fuel - or so rare/high tech that most ships can't afford them.

The current model is completely broken.

WHEW!

BUT, I really like the idea of having a way to syphon off funds and/or make it harder for the players to go wherever they want...

I like the idea that at all Class A and B Starports, they only sell refined fuel, because it is a rip off and they are the only game in town. Consider it a form of price gouging. In Class C and lower Starports, a captain can still buy unrefined fuel. If that Starport though were to upgrade to Class B or better, then unrefined fuel is no longer available as the big boys force out the unrefined fuel sellers.

 

[NOLATrav]

IMTU fuel purifiers cannot be installed in a hull under 10,000 dtons. So definitely a facility/port/capital ship thing.

Yep, we like our Traveller universe to be a little more dangerous than Charted Space :wink:

 

[MasterGwydion]

IMTU fuel purifiers cannot be installed in a hull under 10,000 dtons. So definitely a facility/port/capital ship thing.

Yep, we like our Traveller universe to be a little more dangerous than Charted Space :wink:

As a player and sometimes Referee, I find that I am well-enough capable of getting killed in Traveller without needing to make it harder due to increasing the chance for a misjump. lol. It also makes the scout ship concept unworkable as gas giant refueling wouldn't be a thing anymore. It would be too dangerous and scout ships are tiny so couldn't have a fuel processor.

 

[Condottiere]

The Scoutship concept needs a reboot.

Though you're still left with smallest, cheapest starship slot, that can still land on a planet.

 

[NOLATrav]

IMTU fuel purifiers cannot be installed in a hull under 10,000 dtons. So definitely a facility/port/capital ship thing.

Yep, we like our Traveller universe to be a little more dangerous than Charted Space :wink:

As a player and sometimes Referee, I find that I am well-enough capable of getting killed in Traveller without needing to make it harder due to increasing the chance for a misjump. lol. It also makes the scout ship concept unworkable as gas giant refueling wouldn't be a thing anymore. It would be too dangerous and scout ships are tiny so couldn't have a fuel processor.

For sure, same here. But I do appreciate what RTT mentioned above and agree with it - hence the 10K dton rule IMTU.

As far as Scouts, it’s part & parcel of the job. Unrefined fuel makes a jump riskier - so the Scouts are trained for self-sufficiency, including maintaining their drives.

Probably also why it’s such a traditionally lethal service lol

 

[MasterGwydion]

IMTU fuel purifiers cannot be installed in a hull under 10,000 dtons. So definitely a facility/port/capital ship thing.

Yep, we like our Traveller universe to be a little more dangerous than Charted Space :wink:

As a player and sometimes Referee, I find that I am well-enough capable of getting killed in Traveller without needing to make it harder due to increasing the chance for a misjump. lol. It also makes the scout ship concept unworkable as gas giant refueling wouldn't be a thing anymore. It would be too dangerous and scout ships are tiny so couldn't have a fuel processor.

For sure, same here. But I do appreciate what RTT mentioned above and agree with it - hence the 10K dton rule IMTU.

As far as Scouts, it’s part & parcel of the job. Unrefined fuel makes a jump riskier - so the Scouts are trained for self-sufficiency, including maintaining their drives.

Probably also why it’s such a traditionally lethal service lol

I can understand it being a lethal service, but at 36MCr a pop it gets expansive fast. lol

 

[Condottiere]

Optionally, you have a mothership that just drops off a smallcraft with said Scout.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Optionally, you have a mothership that just drops off a smallcraft with said Scout.

At that point you might as well, just send your cruisers out as exploration cruisers, making exploration so expensive that no one would do it. Just the increase in operational costs alone from not having a fuel processor onboard smaller ships would be restrictive. It means that trade will stop going through anywhere without a Class-C or better Starport unless the ship can make multiple jumps. Most Referees already make it so that Travellers with a ship barely break even trading, so that they "have a reason to adventure". This would entirely change the economic model of the OTU. Gas Giant refueling is a huge way that Free Traders keep their costs down on multi-jump trade runs. Class-C and lower starports would no longer be used by anything other than cruiser-size and larger ships since refined fuel is not available. The same problem would apply to convoy escorts as well, who would be unable to refuel outside of a Class-B or better and some larger Class-C Starports.

 

[NOLATrav]

No one ever factors in the time required to get to the gas giant. And then from there to the port. Sure it’s free gas, but it costs you days, maybe a week. For Scouts it’s nothing, they’re likely gathering sensor data the whole time. For traders it could mean several less jumps over the course of the year.

Thankfully the Traveller Companion finally offers some thoughts on skimming operations; it’s a potentially very dangerous endeavor. Stay in the upper reaches and it’s a time suck. Dive deeper and save some time but you might catch a storm and suffer some damage…

So you pay the exorbitant rates for refined fuel at the local port. If they don’t have refined, have the engineer and astrogator take their time and do their best. And Scouts are trained for extremes.

It hardly breaks the setting, or even the Scout service’s operational budget. It’s an occasional negative DM on a jump throw and a prod to stay up on maintenance.

And misjumps needn’t be as coarse as described in the rules - a misjump could be as simple as a few thousand diameters off, a few solar orbits off, a few hundred AUs off…. all of which is more time insystem, facing potential solar weather, raiders, running out of fuel, passengers freaking out, etc…. Grist for the adventure mill.

 

[NOLATrav]

Optionally, you have a mothership that just drops off a smallcraft with said Scout.

At that point you might as well, just send your cruisers out as exploration cruisers, making exploration so expensive that no one would do it. Just the increase in operational costs alone from not having a fuel processor onboard smaller ships would be restrictive. It means that trade will stop going through anywhere without a Class-C or better Starport unless the ship can make multiple jumps. Most Referees already make it so that Travellers with a ship barely break even trading, so that they "have a reason to adventure". This would entirely change the economic model of the OTU. Gas Giant refueling is a huge way that Free Traders keep their costs down on multi-jump trade runs. Class-C and lower starports would no longer be used by anything other than cruiser-size and larger ships since refined fuel is not available. The same problem would apply to convoy escorts as well, who would be unable to refuel outside of a Class-B or better and some larger Class-C Starports.

Militaries train their personnel to mitigate risks.

As far as fleet movements, there’s canonical precedence that military vessels can use unrefined fuel without penalty. Specially tuned drives or something, goes back to 80’s era CT. So there’s that, but I don’t use it IMTU.

I like a gritty, rough’n’tumble feel to space travel and fuel processors everywhere make it feel safe and mundane. Obviously YMDV

 

[MasterGwydion]

No one ever factors in the time required to get to the gas giant. And then from there to the port. Sure it’s free gas, but it costs you days, maybe a week. For Scouts it’s nothing, they’re likely gathering sensor data the whole time. For traders it could mean several less jumps over the course of the year.

Thankfully the Traveller Companion finally offers some thoughts on skimming operations; it’s a potentially very dangerous endeavor. Stay in the upper reaches and it’s a time suck. Dive deeper and save some time but you might catch a storm and suffer some damage…

So you pay the exorbitant rates for refined fuel at the local port. If they don’t have refined, have the engineer and astrogator take their time and do their best. And Scouts are trained for extremes.

It hardly breaks the setting, or even the Scout service’s operational budget. It’s an occasional negative DM on a jump throw and a prod to stay up on maintenance.

And misjumps needn’t be as coarse as described in the rules - a misjump could be as simple as a few thousand diameters off, a few solar orbits off, a few hundred AUs off…. all of which is more time insystem, facing potential solar weather, raiders, running out of fuel, passengers freaking out, etc…. Grist for the adventure mill.

With a slightly toned down misjump result, I think you are right. That would actually work nicely!