Refined Fuel?

[MasterGwydion]

Hi all! A big thanks to Matt for helping Me get on to the forum!

So, My question is this... What is the point of buying refined fuel at a Starport for Cr500/Dton vs. buying unrefined fuel for Cr100/Dton and then just refining it onboard? Fuel is a major cost in Traveller, but it is basically free to refine.

1000Dtons of refined fuel = Cr500,000/jump
1000Dtons of unrefined fuel = Cr100,000/jump

50 units of Fuel Processors cost:
50Dtons
2.5MCr
50 Power Points

So for 50 tons less cargo space you save 400,000Cr/jump
Add in the loss of 50Dtons of cargo at 1,000Cr/jump = 50,000Cr
So for just over a 300,000Cr/jump savings, so why would anyone buy refined fuel?

 

[AndrewW]

So for just over a 300Cr/jump savings, so why would anyone buy refined fuel?

Those that are in a hurry and don't have time to refine the fuel.
Those that don't have the equipment to refine the fuel on their own.

That loss of cargo space may not be worth it to the ship owners. There is also the upfront cost for the fuel processors.

 

[MasterGwydion]

So for just over a 300Cr/jump savings, so why would anyone buy refined fuel?

Those that are in a hurry and don't have time to refine the fuel.
Those that don't have the equipment to refine the fuel on their own.

That loss of cargo space may not be worth it to the ship owners. There is also the upfront cost for the fuel processors.

Of course there is an upfront cost, but monetize that over the 40+ year life of a Starship. If you make one jump every two weeks you are literally saving 7.8MCr a year. That is 312MCr over the life of a Starship. That is enough to buy an entirely new ship just in fuel savings.

As for the time requirement, How long are you in port for? Standard is a week in jump and a week in system. I am sure they can spare one day and zero crew members to run the Fuel Processor while they are firing up their drives and travelling to the Jump Point.

 

[AndrewW]

Of course there is an upfront cost, but monetize that over the 40+ year life of a Starship. If you make one jump every two weeks you are literally saving 7.8MCr a year. That is 312MCr over the life of a Starship. That is enough to buy an entirely new ship just in fuel savings.

But they may not have the credits, or even if they do they may not want to spend the credits to do that.

As for the time requirement, How long are you in port for? Standard is a week in jump and a week in system. I am sure they can spare one day and zero crew members to run the Fuel Processor while they are firing up their drives and travelling to the Jump Point.

Standard perhaps, but not always the case.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Of course there is an upfront cost, but monetize that over the 40+ year life of a Starship. If you make one jump every two weeks you are literally saving 7.8MCr a year. That is 312MCr over the life of a Starship. That is enough to buy an entirely new ship just in fuel savings.

But they may not have the credits, or even if they do they may not want to spend the credits to do that.

It would be standard on new starships. If something is the "standard", by definition it is the metric that things are judged by. Corporations are by far the largest purchaser of new starships of all sizes. So the standard non-military, Traveller ships (the ships in the books) would all be primarily purchased by corporations. So therefore, they would also be designed to meet that market. No corporation, that isn't going bankrupt, is going to turn down a return that can buy them a "free, brand-new starship" every 40 years.

As for the time requirement, How long are you in port for? Standard is a week in jump and a week in system. I am sure they can spare one day and zero crew members to run the Fuel Processor while they are firing up their drives and travelling to the Jump Point.

Standard perhaps, but not always the case.

Ships are designed for the "standard" because that is where the money is. Anything outside of this "standard" wouldn't get the 10% ship discount. Obviously a starship can be designed anyway you wish. I am talking from a strictly mathematical viewpoint.

 

[Condottiere]

1. Price cartels.

2. Artificial shortage of fuel processors.

3. Also, patented.

 

[Arkathan]

Get a streamlined ship with free fuel scoops, install purifiers, jump for free... but when you are delivering cargo to most planets on a route, that's nearly an extra week in system for transit to the main planet.

In my game, I have a few systems in which enterprising corporations maintain 6000 ton mobile repair ships just outside the 100D limit of the local gas giant. Ships friendly to the company, and of course the company ships, can jump nearby, offload cargo/pickup expected cargo or mail headed for the next system for a transport fee, quickly refuel and be on your way.

 

[MasterGwydion]

1. Price cartels.

2. Artificial shortage of fuel processors.

3. Also, patented.

1.) More powerful than the Megacorps?

2.)Everywhere?

3.) What would you patent? They exist and can be bought damn near anywhere. It has no associated TL, so I would guess anywhere TL9+ it would be available as long as the location wasn't Non-Industrial.

Oh! and BTW... Having read many of your past posts on here, I love the way your mind works, even when I disagree with you! Thanks for being here!

I just had a thought that perhaps Unrefined fuel is no longer available in all Class A and most Class B startports. On the theory that nicer facilities would only sell the higher grade fuel. but that is directly contradicting what the books say for fuel availability.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Get a streamlined ship with free fuel scoops, install purifiers, jump for free... but when you are delivering cargo to most planets on a route, that's nearly an extra week in system for transit to the main planet.

In my game, I have a few systems in which enterprising corporations maintain 6000 ton mobile repair ships just outside the 100D limit of the local gas giant. Ships friendly to the company, and of course the company ships, can jump nearby, offload cargo/pickup expected cargo or mail headed for the next system for a transport fee, quickly refuel and be on your way.

Buying unrefined fuel doesn't take extra time and cuts your fuel costs by 80%

 

[Arkathan]

Get a streamlined ship with free fuel scoops, install purifiers, jump for free... but when you are delivering cargo to most planets on a route, that's nearly an extra week in system for transit to the main planet.

In my game, I have a few systems in which enterprising corporations maintain 6000 ton mobile repair ships just outside the 100D limit of the local gas giant. Ships friendly to the company, and of course the company ships, can jump nearby, offload cargo/pickup expected cargo or mail headed for the next system for a transport fee, quickly refuel and be on your way.

Buying unrefined fuel doesn't take extra time and cuts your fuel costs by 80%

If you purify it. Otherwise you might find yourself up to 36 parsecs away, or a stream of subatomic particles and photons emerging from a collapsed jump bubble.
I was just pointing out alternatives. One free, one faster than travelling in and back out of a gravity well.

 

[Geir]

I just had a thought that perhaps Unrefined fuel is no longer available in all Class A and most Class B startports. On the theory that nicer facilities would only sell the higher grade fuel. but that is directly contradicting what the books say for fuel availability.

It doesn't technically contradict the rules. The Starport Facilities table only lists refined fuel for Starports A and B, and I just checked the classic Book 3 as well. Nothing definitely states that A and B actually offer unrefined fuel. That's always been my assumption, but we all know about assumptions. I could see certain starports only offering refined fuel as a way to help pay for overhead costs, like executive bonuses...

 

[MasterGwydion]

Get a streamlined ship with free fuel scoops, install purifiers, jump for free... but when you are delivering cargo to most planets on a route, that's nearly an extra week in system for transit to the main planet.

In my game, I have a few systems in which enterprising corporations maintain 6000 ton mobile repair ships just outside the 100D limit of the local gas giant. Ships friendly to the company, and of course the company ships, can jump nearby, offload cargo/pickup expected cargo or mail headed for the next system for a transport fee, quickly refuel and be on your way.

Buying unrefined fuel doesn't take extra time and cuts your fuel costs by 80%

If you purify it. Otherwise you might find yourself up to 36 parsecs away, or a stream of subatomic particles and photons emerging from a collapsed jump bubble.
I was just pointing out alternatives. One free, one faster than travelling in and back out of a gravity well.

Of course, if you purify it. That was in the OP.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I just had a thought that perhaps Unrefined fuel is no longer available in all Class A and most Class B startports. On the theory that nicer facilities would only sell the higher grade fuel. but that is directly contradicting what the books say for fuel availability.

It doesn't technically contradict the rules. The Starport Facilities table only lists refined fuel for Starports A and B, and I just checked the classic Book 3 as well. Nothing definitely states that A and B actually offer unrefined fuel. That's always been my assumption, but we all know about assumptions. I could see certain starports only offering refined fuel as a way to help pay for overhead costs, like executive bonuses...

Well...Crap! You appear to be correct! Does this mean that I've been playing this game wrong for the last almost 30 years? lmao! This would totally explain why most ships do not have Fuel Processors! Thanks man!

 

[Geir]

I just had a thought that perhaps Unrefined fuel is no longer available in all Class A and most Class B startports. On the theory that nicer facilities would only sell the higher grade fuel. but that is directly contradicting what the books say for fuel availability.

It doesn't technically contradict the rules. The Starport Facilities table only lists refined fuel for Starports A and B, and I just checked the classic Book 3 as well. Nothing definitely states that A and B actually offer unrefined fuel. That's always been my assumption, but we all know about assumptions. I could see certain starports only offering refined fuel as a way to help pay for overhead costs, like executive bonuses...

Well...Crap! You appear to be correct! Does this mean that I've been playing this game wrong for the last almost 30 years? lmao! This would totally explain why most ships do not have Fuel Processors! Thanks man!

Yeah, me too... more like, 40+, but whatever. I have a different perspective now: I can just hear the legal department saying: "We can't sell them unrefined fuel when refined is available! Think of the liability! It's a defective product."

 

[MasterGwydion]

It doesn't technically contradict the rules. The Starport Facilities table only lists refined fuel for Starports A and B, and I just checked the classic Book 3 as well. Nothing definitely states that A and B actually offer unrefined fuel. That's always been my assumption, but we all know about assumptions. I could see certain starports only offering refined fuel as a way to help pay for overhead costs, like executive bonuses...

Well...Crap! You appear to be correct! Does this mean that I've been playing this game wrong for the last almost 30 years? lmao! This would totally explain why most ships do not have Fuel Processors! Thanks man!

Yeah, me too... more like, 40+, but whatever. I have a different perspective now: I can just hear the legal department saying: "We can't sell them unrefined fuel when refined is available! Think of the liability! It's a defective product."

Defective Product! lmao! I love it!

 

[Condottiere]

1. The issue with fuel purification has come up before.

2. Cost accountingwise, every spaceship should have it installed.

3. One problem is, we're not quite sure what it's processing the unrefined stuff into.

4. Also, apparently, it doesn't matter if it's water.

5. And last I checked, it's average is about a buck fifty in America for a thousand gallons.

6. Using the logic that it's the hydrogen that matters.

7. What was it last time, helium and some other liquid where the hydrogen density was even greater?

8. For some reason I'm thinking alcohol.

9. What about carbo hydrates?

A. Or is it hydro carbons?

 

[Condottiere]

And then you have players setting up a moonshine still, hidden in the shadow of one the many satellites orbitting the local gas giant.

 

[MasterGwydion]

And then you have players setting up a moonshine still, hidden in the shadow of one the many satellites orbitting the local gas giant.

Not sure what book it was in, but it mentioned using a ship's fuel purification system to turn polluted crap into clean drinking water as well.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

So, My question is this... What is the point of buying refined fuel at a Starport for Cr500/Dton vs. buying unrefined fuel for Cr100/Dton and then just refining it onboard?

Once upon a time, long ago in Classic Traveller, fuel purifiers were not common and civilian ships needed refined fuel.

Now, purifiers are cheap and plentiful, and you should really not need refined fuel.

 

[MasterGwydion]

So, My question is this... What is the point of buying refined fuel at a Starport for Cr500/Dton vs. buying unrefined fuel for Cr100/Dton and then just refining it onboard?

Once upon a time, long ago in Classic Traveller, fuel purifiers were not common and civilian ships needed refined fuel.

Now, purifiers are cheap and plentiful, and you should really not need refined fuel.

Yep. It does seem to be a hold-over from CT, but I do like the take, on why that is, from a viewpoint that Class A and B Starports simply do not sell Unrefined Fuel and the majority of Trade Traffic is between Class A and B starports, so ships are simply not built as "Standard Designs" with Fuel Processors. (except Military Ships or Scout/Exploration Type Vessels) Seems like a good idea for a new Mega-Corp. Installing fuel processors in Class C Starbases for an initial investment, a little bit of maintenance cost, and a nearly 400% Profit Margin! Or call it a 200% profit margin if they sell it to the Starport Instead of directly to the Refueling Starships. That way both the new Corp and the Starport make money on it. Can't do this at Class A and B Starports as, others are already fulfilling those needs.