why have the Kizinti been neutered?

[Greg Smith]

take it on the shields...?

you mean get hit by the potentially nastiest weapon in the game?

that's not exactly what I had in mind for 'taking it' Greg (although in fairness at least they can't bypass shields)

A couple of drones hitting full strength, overloaded or Klingon front shields isn't the end of the world.

It isn't the ideal, but if your ship gets blasted by a barrage of 12 drones, shooting some down, using ADD or drones, then tractors - a couple getting through isn't terrible on most ships.

Of course if your opponent is concentrating his entire fleet's firepower onto your one ship, it probably won't make that much difference.

 

[storeylf]

Re: escorts and easier IDF.

Escorts are still very useful. They come with more phases than most which is valuable in its own right, and don't use a SA to have a version of IDF which is plenty good enough in most cases. It leaves the escort able to take the easier evade SA and therefore not be such an easier target itself, or to APE to someone who needs defending etc.

Escorts in FedCom don't get this fire 4 times or what ever (never saw them in SFB). FedCom escorts works pretty much like ACTA - it just allows them to use their phasers to help a nearby target. The main difference is that FedCom ones can also use the ADD to help as well.

 

[Stu--]

Yeah the ADD thing on escorts does need to be fixed.. right now the Kzinti escort frigate is poor - because in FC it's defence method is ADD's. That has been faithfully converted into ACTA, creating a ship that can defend itself very well but not actually perform it's function.

 

[storeylf]

Is he same problem on the Rom escorts which rely on Plasma Ds, or do they get away with saying they are using the Plasma D, but then choosing to use it in ADD 'mode'.

 

[Stu--]

No you are correct - they can exchange a PL-D for a point of ADD.
Which then doesn't allow them to protect anyone but themselves.

 

[Da Boss]

There are a few issues (reversing the points cost of the Gettysberg and Kirov being another) with Fleet Update 1 - it could do with a small update itself

 

[billclo]

Escorts in FedCom don't get this fire 4 times or what ever (never saw them in SFB). FedCom escorts works pretty much like ACTA - it just allows them to use their phasers to help a nearby target. The main difference is that FedCom ones can also use the ADD to help as well.

In SFB the escorts had the "Aegis" system, which allowed for 4 firing opportunities in one impulse. There was also a "limited Aegis" system which allowed for 2 firing opportunities, and which was installed on some regular warships (Klingon D5 comes to mind, which controlled it's ADD and waist phaser-3s).

 

[Captain Jonah]

Escorts using ADD (or Plasma D in ADD mode) to protect someone within 4" as part of the escort rule.

Not sure what the logic behind ADDs not being able to protect someone close by was unless it was an attempt to balance with Plasmas since the ADDs are useless against the "big firey balls of incoming minor shield damge after Phaser fire".

Its the weekend coming up. Anyone who can get a game in try out Storyelf's rather good idea.

 

[McKinstry]

There are a few issues (reversing the points cost of the Gettysberg and Kirov being another) with Fleet Update 1 - it could do with a small update itself

That one pretty well jumps off the page in the case of the New Jersey v Gettysburg.

ADD or Plasma D on an escort should be viable within that 8" circle as capable of adding to the coverage.

 

[Rambler]

Actually AntiDrones seem to have been left out on purpose. Lets Playtest and report on how the rules work as written then we can work on adding other things to them.

The rules say Escorts can contribute thier Plasma Ds to Defensive Fire not their AntiDrones. So if we are going to assume there was a ommision why not say it was a rule that allows 1AD of Plasma D used in Defensive Fire will cancel 1AD of Drones. After all that is how they work on Escorts in the Base System.

As for the Gettysburg and New Jersey I will bet you dollars to donuts the Gettysburg is correct and the problem is the New Jersey is under pointed. CBs are almost as good as BCFs and BCGs. And one round of Erratta alread adjusted the BCJ from 220 to 240 before. Adding the Shock instead of Firing Limits seems like it should be point neutral.

 

[storeylf]

The problem with that is that some escorts become quite weak, the Rom as I remember gives up 2 phasers for 2 Plasma Ds, but that gains it nothing in terms of ACTA.

I'd be tempted to say that using plasma D means you can use them in anti drone mode as well, its still the Plasma D you are using. Nothing seems to say you can't. Sure ADD traits aren't listed as being usable, but you don't have an ADD trait to use.

If that isn't the case then it certainly looks like Fed escorts (and Hydran if they turn up) become uber escorts compared to anyone else, as they have the phaser Gs, whilst most of the rest of the galaxy relies on ADD and Plasma D, which are not useable for the thing they were intended.

 

[Greg Smith]

The Kzinti escort really needs to able to use/lend anti-drone.

 

[Rambler]

Most Plasma Escorts give up Plasma Fs for Plasma Ds but you are correct the SPM does give up 2 Phaser-1s. It gains 2 more Plasma Ds for 4 total and it gains 4 Phaser-3s which help quite a bit in ACTA though.

 

[Nerroth]

The issue with anti-drones echoes how that system has evolved over in Federation Commander, rather than Star Fleet Battles.

In FC, when ADDs were first introduced, they had no "offensive" function; they were strictly for use in a ship's own self-defence. However, as time passed, the first Aegis escorts started to show up in that game. As they did, they started to raise questions about how anti-drones (should) function.

Now, in FC, there is a limited (two hexes, as opposed to three in SFB) range offensive mode, which ADDs can use to try and shoot at drones which are still in mid-flight (or, in the case of an Aegis escort, have impacted against a friendly ship within that range.)

And to clarify, there is no distinction between "limited" and "full" Aegis in FC; there is only one type of Aegis fire control system available to escorts in that game. (Which means that when converting ships over from SFB, you only need the -E variant, as opposed to the more expensive -A upgrade.)


Whether or not the rules for ADDs (and, by extension, plasma-Ds) should follow a similar evolutionary path in ACtA:SF is up for debate; but given the very short ranges involved, a ship lending its ADD support to a friendly unit would likely have to stay in (or near) base-to-base contact in order to do so. So, if either ship ends up exploding, the other will be caught in the blast radius.

Which, in this case, might be the point, since it would force the player to make tough choices about just how far away they want their escort ship to be from the unit it's protecting.

 

[Rerednaw]

I played all factions in SFB and SFCTA.

I have played against Kzinti, under the original "OMG OP" drone rules and slaughtered them.

I don't find drones excessive or worthless at the moment.

 

[Gorgo]

Rerednaw
Post subject: Re: why have the Kizinti been neutered?
I played all factions in SFB and SFCTA.

I have played against Kzinti, under the original "OMG OP" drone rules and slaughtered them.

I don't find drones excessive or worthless at the moment.
I couldn't be more in agreement with you Rerednaw. Too many conservative players lacking the imagination to modify the "perfect" tactics they developed up until a new element is added... boo hoo!

 

[Da Boss]

Speaking as one of the players who found the whole drone mechanism "broken" and is apparently a "boo Hoo" player I would be interested to see some actual reports and evidence about how easy it is to defeat the original drones rather than statements.

Otherwise it could be seen as no more than empty words on a open forum........

 

[Captain Jonah]

Well lets see.

Rules just released. OMG drones with huge range and unlimited ability to concentrate fire were OP:

100s of posts and topics.

Last few months since 3 ship limit and roll to target over 16", number of topics and posts that drones are underpowered:

Erm none that I can remember.

So maybe all of us players going on about a problem actually knew what we were talking about.

Re ADDs, they need a range on escorts. The Fed escorts (and Hydrans) roll in with the ability to stop 8-10 Dice of Drones or Plasmas on another ship. The Kzinti and smaller Klingon escorts bring a few Phasers to the fight and can stop 3-4 dice. The Kzinti escort frigate has ADD3, for what, if it cannot defend another ship within a range against Drones (those weapons the Kzinti are masters of)?

Lets face it, many Klingon players (I’m not but I would) are going to take some the E5 escort for those 4AD of Drones not because it can lend a whole 3-4 Phasers to another ships defence.

The Kzinti escort frigate, no, just no.

 

[Gorgo]

Well lets see.

Rules just released. OMG drones with huge range and unlimited ability to concentrate fire were OP:

100s of posts and topics.

Last few months since 3 ship limit and roll to target over 16", number of topics and posts that drones are underpowered:

Erm none that I can remember.

So maybe all of us players going on about a problem actually knew what we were talking about.

Apparently you still don't know what you're talking about.
The last time I checked this post it was titled "why have the Kizinti been neutered?" An interesting visual if ever there was one...
The Kzinti haven't been.
1. ADD are fine as is, they do not need a range. They are a TRAIT and not a weapon system...treat them as such.
2. I had a nasty fight against a Kzinti DN, BCH, BC, CM?, CL, CLE with a comparable force of Gorns. Result? Minor victory for the Gorns. Not because the killer kats had a weakness but because my opponent let his fleet spread out and I was able to concentrate fire power.
3. Get over the "Lack of optimization" when it comes to your escorts. They are no worse than anyone else.
4. If you find yourself losing a lot consider changing races. Perhaps Kzinti aren't suited to your play style.

Gorgo

 

[kyrolon]

Actually, gorgo, ADDs DO need a range. The source material gives them a range, and several of the escorts need them to...you know...escort things. A ship designed to escort other ships, but whose primary defensive weapon has a 0" range cannot do what it is written to do. This is a definate problem. It is not one that can be overcome with tactics. The escort has ADDs to escort things, but the rules don't let it use them that way.

As for getting over that ADDs are a trait, maybe there should have been a little more thought or playtesting put into them. We aren't talking "lack of optimization" we are talking lack of functionality. The Kzinti escorts are non functional as is. Please just make ADDs a weapon system or a trait (i.e. fix the fed G-rack as well-no way should we lose ADDs due to power drains).