why have the Kizinti been neutered?

This is supposed to be a more streamlined faster playing star fleet game. Additional options would just bog it down.

That's the thing; it's a fundamentally different rule-set. But I agree - speed and 'clean table' play are two of the hallmarks of ACTA.

The problems of conversion from a detailled game to a fast play game have happened before - the original (Babylon 5) ACTA suffered from this with Beam weapons, which remained a persistant bugbear throughout the game's life. The idea of a 'raking' shot being translated as 'keep shooting till you miss' worked fine in theory but gave massive (and unbalanced) advantages against less armoured ships, or fleets with easy sensor locks. The problem was that the B5 wars effect that was trying to be represented (multiple smaller hits across several systems rather than one big blow) doesn't work with damage condensed to a single hit-point score.


The problem with drones is much the same; Intensify Defensive Fire! works - and well - but you either have to do it continuously (using your special action) or else accept that you're going to spend the entire game sucking on concentrated drone fire. You can't do it as a response, or manouvre as a response, or whatever because there's no 'flight time'.

You could use an 'incoming drones' counter. That would also make it clear how many salvoes were currently attacking a ship (making the channels thing easier), but my understanding is that Mongoose has a general philosophical dislike of counters on the board. More to the point, this is a fleet game; whilst tracking the exchange of drone salvoes is easy between 2-3 ships, with ten or more warships on the board, knowing which salvo was from which ship gets awkward in the extreme, especially if some salvoes have special rules as well as different attack dice numbers.

My personal suggestion is something I liked from Battlefleet Gothic. I think that it, along with ACTA, are the two best 'fleet' wargames going - there's stuff I prefer from both (weapons fire in ACTA is a lot simpler, not reliant on anything like the never-to-be-sufficiently-accursed gunnery table, for example, and the escalating critical hits means a critical on a battered ship is a bigger deal than on an intact one, as it should be).

One thing that Gothic does do very well is to allow Brace For Impact! (the equivalent order) as a response to getting a crud-load of ordnance flung your way, rather than having to guess in your movement phase which ships your opponent will subsequently shoot at (and knowing he will pointedly shoot at any you leave exposed). You could do this even if you were on a special order already, doing so as a response to the attack being declared, on the understanding that it replaced any order you were currently on and counted as your choice of special order in the next game turn.

This made it more reactive and quite a tactical choice; do you concentrate fire on one ship to try and kill it, or do you spread it out amongst several enemies in the hopes of making several of them turtle up behind their defenses?

Of course the problem with this approach is that Gothic is I-Go-You-Go rather than alternating activations. Therefore you'd have done everything you wanted to in your turn, and Braced in your opponent's turn, knowing you'd take the penalty in your next turn. In ACTA, the question becomes one of the effects of losing special actions mid-turn; which penalises some more than others - orders that don't affect anything until the end of the turn are lost with no benefit, whilst orders which affect movement are already done and finished by the shooting phase. Also, you need to understand how this affects stuff like power drain.


Lastly, one of the key problem with Drones isn't a problem with drones, just as one of the key problems with B5 beam weapons was actualy to do with initiative and the boresight arc of fire.

As noted (by several people) it's the problem of Drones and Plasma. Both use the seeking weapons rule, both are defended against by point defence and Intensify Defensive Fire!. However Drones generally seem to be considered some of the best weapons in the game rules and Plasma Torps some of the worst. I'm not sure if making Intensify Defensive Fire! more easily accessible is going to hurt plasma users badly. I'd guess not so much because (given reload times and range issues) plasma fire rarely comes as a 'surprise' in the same way - if you're going to be hit by a plasma torp you generally see it coming and would have been on Intensify Defensive Fire! orders anyway.
 
One of the players I play with suggested a new phase, right at the start of the Attack Phase. Namely, that of seeking weapons launch. You say this ship is launching seeking weapons, targeted on so and so. Then the regular Attack Phase happens with direct fire weapons. THEN at the end of the Attack Phase after all direct fire is done, the seeking weapons hit their target.

This allows ships to know who is targeted (as they would in reality), and they can conduct their fire as they see fit, and hold back weapons if needed. After all, the seeking weapons are slower than direct fire.

No counters, nothing complicated, nothing more than a re-arrangement in the way the Attack Phase works. And it eliminates the ambush situation.
 
You know bill, that is a good idea.
It fixes all the issues with drones and causes no new ones that I can see.


As for whether lots of DF would nerf plasma - each shot at a plasma torp is one that isn't coming your way, just as it is in SFB. So the net result should be the same. And you still have to roll to hit!
 
You would need to note who is firing at whom otherwise in bigger games with 10+ ships it will be a case of "erm anyone remember who this ship was firing at". :lol:

Since however the firing ship only matters for arc (or range in the case of Plasmas) I would drop a dice next to the target ship to indicate arc and number of damage dice (well several dice for Plasmas).

You have moved so the battle at that point is static but being able to see incoming seeking weapons before firing direct fire weapons would be very useful.

This needs to be play tested as it could tip the other way and make seekers much weaker because it completely removes the uncertainty.

Good thinking Billco :D
 
Maybe it's just me but 32 pulses of drones render SFB unplayable. Why would anyone want to replicate that?

Making everything direct fire simplified things and adding two data points in markers for every seeker (#AD, target) will slow the game further in the area that already takes too long (defensive fire vs seekers).
 
Stu-- said:
You know bill, that is a good idea.
It fixes all the issues with drones and causes no new ones that I can see.

As for whether lots of DF would nerf plasma - each shot at a plasma torp is one that isn't coming your way, just as it is in SFB. So the net result should be the same. And you still have to roll to hit!

Immediate Problems:

You slow the game down with addiitonal firing and resolution phase - Bill was already having problems with lenghhs of games - this will worsen it.
Yet more makers are required.
The range changes as ships move - which effects things like energy bleed and resolution of drones - auto hit or roll. Do ships that are now out of range auto a evade these seekng weapins - you would either need to record not only firing ship and target ship but range at time of firing or measure range at the resolution phase rather than the target phase
The target ship may move beyond blocking terrain and so can't be hit or can it?
Do ships that have been destroyed in the mean time still launch seeking weapons or not - again it all has to be recorded rather than the speed of direct fire weapons.

Defensive fire is an absolute PITA to record with fleets as it is - IF defensive fire/weapon lines was as simple as it is in BFG then some of the torpdeo mechanisms could be adapted/nicked and used.

I could get behind the IDF for all ships to a certain extent - and we should remember that drones also seem to be as or often even more prolific on Federation and Klingon ships than Kzinti - Sadly :(
 
Da Boss said:
Stu-- said:
You know bill, that is a good idea.
It fixes all the issues with drones and causes no new ones that I can see.

As for whether lots of DF would nerf plasma - each shot at a plasma torp is one that isn't coming your way, just as it is in SFB. So the net result should be the same. And you still have to roll to hit!

Immediate Problems:

You slow the game down with addiitonal firing and resolution phase - Bill was already having problems with lenghhs of games - this will worsen it.
Yet more makers are required.

Do ships that have been destroyed in the mean time still launch seeking weapons or not - again it all has to be recorded rather than the speed of direct fire weapons.

Defensive fire is an absolute PITA to record with fleets as it is - IF defensive fire/weapon lines was as simple as it is in BFG then some of the torpdeo mechanisms could be adapted/nicked and used.

I could get behind the IDF for all ships to a certain extent - and we should remember that drones also seem to be as or often even more prolific on Federation and Klingon ships than Kzinti - Sadly :(

I think you may have missed the part where you designate targets and launch seekers after all movement has been completed but before direct fire has been started.

But yes, you're right in that some sort of record keeping would be required, either dice on the target, or on your record sheet. And definitely it'd slow down the game. Which is not helpful.

I just thought it was worth mentioning in case someone wanted to playtest it. :)

Ships that were destroyed before their seekers hit the target, well that's an interesting question. In SFB at least, if I recall correctly, ships could pass control of drones to another ship that had control capacity. Plasmas, while guided by their launching ship, could be allowed to self-home while the launching ship did something else with the control channels. NO FREAKING WAY do I want to have to keep track of this level of detail. For simplicity I would just say that all seeking weapons can go self-homing if need be. If one wanted to be anal about it, one could assign a -1 penalty to any seeking weapon fired by a ship that has been destroyed when it is time to resolve the hits (an seeking weapon that is in the 18" auto-hit range would roll 2-6 to hit, a 1 misses).
 
In SFB at least, if I recall correctly, ships could pass control of drones to another ship that had control capacity.

They don't in Fed Com, the drones just die if the launching ships is detroyed.
 
storeylf said:
In SFB at least, if I recall correctly, ships could pass control of drones to another ship that had control capacity.

They don't in Fed Com, the drones just die if the launching ships is detroyed.

Okay. My FedCom experience consists of one game. My experience with SFB was much more extensive (if a long time ago).
 
It did simplify everything for sure, but it also basically broke drones because as originally conceived in FC/SFB they weren't that good but in ACTA they can be devastating.

Also, because there are multiple times that a ship can be attacked it actually makes it more complex to have to track how many weapons you've fired as you do it, instead of just doing it all at the end.

All you'd need to do is put a dice (or make some other marker) with a number on it showing the number of incomings.
 
Just to chip in, I have just had a look at one new Kzinti ship that wikll be appearing in Fleet Update #2. I don't think there will be anyone thinking the Kzinti have been neutered when they see this one :)
 
Matt, what do you think about changing the drone firing sequence as per the suggestion above?
ie: declare all drone firing first as a new phase and then play the turn out normally?
 
Just to point out that tracking drones as counters was tried out in playtesting. One playtest game reportedly had as many as 70 drones counters on the table.

Even in small games tracking firing ships, turns they were fired and so on became unwieldy.
 
Didn't the early playtest rules have a similar system as proposed above, adapted from Victory At Sea's torpedo rules, where seeking weapons didn't hit until the end phase (turns before impact depending on range) ? IIRC that's what Greg's alluding to regarding placing markers.
 
That was it. Although marking a target was easy it became a pain to move a model with multiple drone markers, to track which shop they came from, which arc they attacked and indeed how many drones each marker represented.

Which had us saying 'This isn't ACTA!'.
 
Stu-- said:
Matt, what do you think about changing the drone firing sequence as per the suggestion above?
ie: declare all drone firing first as a new phase and then play the turn out normally?

Honestly, I think it would be a pain in the backside. The key to ACTA is Keep it Simple!
 
Iain McGhee said:
Didn't the early playtest rules have a similar system as proposed above, adapted from Victory At Sea's torpedo rules, where seeking weapons didn't hit until the end phase (turns before impact depending on range) ?

That was a pin in the bum too - what works for one game does not always work for another.

In VaS, you (generally) have fewer units on the table, fewer have torpedoes, and the launch of torpedoes is done within tight parameters (range greatly resticted).

In Star Fleet, you have more units, more of them have drones, and you can start shooting drones from turn one in most cases, all of which leads to a lot more drones flying about in ACTA than you have torpedoes in VaS.

We tried several different methods but, in the end, basically said 'stuff it.' It was not worth the extra hassle.

Incidentally, in the interests of simplicity, the new edition of VaS now has torpedoes alunched and hitting in the Attack Phase, rather than waiting until the end. The delay in first edition makes them 'feel' right but does absolutely nothing for how the mechanics of the game hold up. In the end, you have to ask whether it is worth the extra hassle.

Generally speaking, it isn't...
 
Yep, didn't think that suggestion about split seeking weapon launch phase would work out, but I figured I ought to put it out there in fairness to the guy who suggested it. :)

This is why I am not a game designer. I can come up with rules that might be "realistic", but it's much harder coming up with rules that are "realistic but fast to play". :D

Needless to say I've come to appreciate how difficult it must have been to come up with the rules for ACTA:SF, and keep it relatively simple and more streamlined.
 
Don't get me wrong I'm all for simplicity...

but the current drone rules definitely don't work as per the source material.
It can't be 'right' that a ship which has fired first in initiative is allowed to become a target magnet for the rest of the turn because it can no longer defend itself.
That's just not fun, for either player to be honest.
 
Stu-- said:
It can't be 'right' that a ship which has fired first in initiative is allowed to become a target magnet for the rest of the turn because it can no longer defend itself.

Then don't fire all your phasers. Surely the tactics is about deciding what to fire when.
 
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