whats the deal with mongoose
- Thread starter computerarif
- Start date
Renny said:
Or: Offering rules for free to sell miniatures ridiculous? Oh wait didn't they do precisely that with flames of war...They were giving up the smaller pocket book versions for free. That wasn't even pdf version but was full rules for world war 2 miniatures in dead-tree version...
Seems Battlefront doesn't seem that interested in making money with rulebooks
Free rulebooks ahoy! Okay not PDF but point stands. Rulebooks for free. Do I hear brick&mortar stores complaining about BF giving away FREE RULEBOOKS? Nope. Why should they? That helps B&M's to sell the models which is where the real money comes from...After all which option stores prefer:
make 1000 from rulebooks and 10000 from miniatures(numbers obviously made up) or: make -200 from rulebooks and 20000 from miniatures.
Made up numbers but principle is same. Sacrificing bit of profit from rulebooks in exchange of bigger overall profits. Which is more important?
Also look at what Mongoose is doing with legend. PDF legend rulebook for 1$ only. That's practically as good as free.
That's what rulebook sales will be like in future. Basic rules for free pdf and cheap dead-tree version(basically covering just the expenses. Some companies might prefer to leave these for print-on-demand services to cater those customers who want them) for those who want.
Trying to make profit on basic rules is idea from '70's. Works roughly for rpg's(where books is only thing they sell. Though legend seems to defy that idea going for basic rules for free, profit from supplements...) but for miniatures better idea is to hook up players to buy more miniatures. That's where profits comes from. Miniature companies live and die from sale of models. Not by sale of rulebooks. Just as a point of comparison: If you calculate what I spent on FOW books and FOW miniatures then eventhough I bought intelligence briefing's I didn't really need amount was like 2-3% of total expenses...Even if player just buys one army and is then done that will be still easily less than 10% of expenses spent on books.
Miniatures is where the money comes from. And nice thing too that this way you don't have to spend time, effort and money fighting again internet piracy. At least currently there's no way to just download the models (though that too will change eventually but at least that's still good many years off. Miniature companies should start to figure out how to survive when THAT happens. You think it's bad now when rulebooks get downloaded from the internet? What will you think will happen when rather than buying Mongoose's ships I could simply download models from the web and print my own high-quality versions? Tech isn't quite there yet but it's getting there slow and steady...And even if we forget about pirated versions(which will happen) this will also cause major explosion of new miniature designers who will be offering model designs for cheap price. Mongoose will then need to ensure they provide ships that beat the competition in quality or they don't stand a chance.)
Battlefront already figured this out. Free rulebooks to hook up players. Eventually more companies will change to this. Change is never quick process but it's like landslide. It just keeps happening.
Adapting Borg statement: "Change is inevitable, resistance is futile".
That's what rulebook sales will be like in future. Basic rules for free pdf and cheap dead-tree version(basically covering just the expenses. Some companies might prefer to leave these for print-on-demand services to cater those customers who want them) for those who want.
Trying to make profit on basic rules is idea from '70's. Works roughly for rpg's(where books is only thing they sell. Though legend seems to defy that idea going for basic rules for free, profit from supplements...) but for miniatures better idea is to hook up players to buy more miniatures. That's where profits comes from. Miniature companies live and die from sale of models. Not by sale of rulebooks. Just as a point of comparison: If you calculate what I spent on FOW books and FOW miniatures then eventhough I bought intelligence briefing's I didn't really need amount was like 2-3% of total expenses...Even if player just buys one army and is then done that will be still easily less than 10% of expenses spent on books.
Miniatures is where the money comes from. And nice thing too that this way you don't have to spend time, effort and money fighting again internet piracy. At least currently there's no way to just download the models
(though that too will change eventually but at least that's still good many years off. Miniature companies should start to figure out how to survive when THAT happens. You think it's bad now when rulebooks get downloaded from the internet? What will you think will happen when rather than buying Mongoose's ships I could simply download models from the web and print my own high-quality versions? Tech isn't quite there yet but it's getting there slow and steady...And even if we forget about pirated versions(which will happen) this will also cause major explosion of new miniature designers who will be offering model designs for cheap price. Mongoose will then need to ensure they provide ships that beat the competition in quality or they don't stand a chance.)Battlefront already figured this out. Free rulebooks to hook up players. Eventually more companies will change to this. Change is never quick process but it's like landslide. It just keeps happening.
Adapting Borg statement: "Change is inevitable, resistance is futile".
ErikB said:
I don't think I said it's change that will happen overnight
And they didn't try to in house print on demand but get the whole bang and do their own supply of books. Frankly switching to external print-on-demand providing customers with files required to order their own bound rulebook if they want(the one hardback I printed from print-on-demand service is actually pretty darn good apart from the front cover but then again I'm no artist. Can't get good quality front cover 'cause I suck at designing them. But if Mongoose provides that there's no issue there) takes lot less effort. The printing is after all done by company which concentrates on it
But yeah change will happen slowly. But seems even Mongoose is dipping their toes in that water what with Judge Dredd(rules for free) and legend(basic rulebook for 1$ which is practically as good as free). Battlefront swallowed concept real good. Free pocket rulebooks(the kind Mongoose offers on the fleet boxes as freebies but problem with THAT is that a) it's attached on 75£ box players don't impulsively buy that often b) it doesn't cater to those who want to see the rules before they buy models c) we all know how well the delivery of fleet boxes has gone....), big hardcover ones for those who want and main profit comes from miniatures.
Surprising they haven't yet offered the PDF but then again as said changes don't happen overnight.
Good start toward this customer-friendlier future would be simply to fight against the irrational fear of B&M stores against the PDF rules. They ain't your enemies man! Look at them as opportunity to attract MORE players that buy the MINIATURES which is what you in the end want! Rather than wasting time, effort and money fighting against PDF rules to help your store spend more time figuring how to keep players buying the miniatures from your store. That's LOT more productive than chasing PDF sales which in the end is simply shooting at your own leg...
Alas humans have built-in fear of the change
Greg Smith
Mongoose
Just to point out that Mongoose are offering free rulebooks* - buy a fleet a box and you will get one.
*Or would be if things had gone according to plan.
*Or would be if things had gone according to plan.
computerarif
Mongoose
I wrote this post in frustration at mongoose. Never thought it would go like this. But on the plus side they really did make a good rules set. Its a better game than Federation Commander and I am thinking of selling off my Fed Com stuff so I can pay for the Klingon and Kizint box set (if they ever get released).
Its sad that the rules are good and the models have turned into a giant FUBARed mess.
I wonder when any actual "Brick & Mortar" game stores will actually get their merchandise or how long Mongoose will continue to funnel customers through their own store.
I have decided to simply give up and ignore this game. Shelve it till I feel like coming back to it. I refuse to be pressured into submitting to the truly outrageous shipping prices. Prices that one would not have to pay at Brick and Mortar Stores.
In the other Online Retail Stores, the shipping is no where near this expensive. For 1 fleet Box & 1 Ship blister it was 18.00$ Shipping! EIGHTEEN Dollars!
With the doubt of ever getting the product shipped to me, coupled with this unreasonable cost, Im done. Im sure you will find plenty of people desperate enough to get their hands on these but after learning that you are placing Further Delays while you ship manufacturing responsibilities to China and decide that you will be using Resin now or whatever excuse you decide to throw out there to justify the continued extortion method of "Buy from us youll get your models (eventually...maybe)..."
To hell with Mongoose.
I wonder when any actual "Brick & Mortar" game stores will actually get their merchandise or how long Mongoose will continue to funnel customers through their own store.
I have decided to simply give up and ignore this game. Shelve it till I feel like coming back to it. I refuse to be pressured into submitting to the truly outrageous shipping prices. Prices that one would not have to pay at Brick and Mortar Stores.
In the other Online Retail Stores, the shipping is no where near this expensive. For 1 fleet Box & 1 Ship blister it was 18.00$ Shipping! EIGHTEEN Dollars!
With the doubt of ever getting the product shipped to me, coupled with this unreasonable cost, Im done. Im sure you will find plenty of people desperate enough to get their hands on these but after learning that you are placing Further Delays while you ship manufacturing responsibilities to China and decide that you will be using Resin now or whatever excuse you decide to throw out there to justify the continued extortion method of "Buy from us youll get your models (eventually...maybe)..."
To hell with Mongoose.
McKinstry said:ErikB said:Greg Smith said:Not to mention that other small games company, Games Workshop.
You can download the rules for things like Battlefleet Gothic and Epic Armageddon and Inquisitor though.
All games they will not be doing reprints or updates for and when the molds wear out, no more miniatures.
Unlikely they will let them go that bad unless there's literally no demand. Replacing moulds for metal models is dirt cheap so they can do those as needed and get slight income.
Also btw worth pointing out they were offering those for free even when they were marketing them and releasing new models. They didn't die off because they weren't profitable or needed. GW opted to kill them deliberately 'least they create internal competition with FB/40k/LOTR...
Specialist games were doing pretty darned good for their budget. Heck epic armageddon exceeded sale expectations by 300%-400%. Not too shabby with almost zero marketing. But of course free rules=easier to attract players
Greg Smith said:
As I said: a) those are not really free. You need to pay 75£ box to get one b) because of that it's not that good at attracting casual player for impulse "let's try that game". Players don't spend 75£ for unknown game just like that just as easily as free rules+some models. And everybody who tries rules is potential hooker who's going to spend LOT more in future c) this doesn't cater to those who want to determine BEFOREHAND what they want to buy. You know the type. Create army list, playtest it, tweak it, buy models. These will buy lots of models eventually anyway but they will do it in organised manner. They don't just buy tons of models of which lots will stand on shelves d) of course there's also the fact there is major distribution issues...Free rules don't suffer from that and will keep the point c) players happy until models actually hit the shelves(after all tweaking list and settling on what to buy takes time as well. They don't NEED models available from the get-go)
"Free" rulebook in 75£ isn't nearly as good way to attract new players as free rules period. And attracting new players is lot more valuable even to the B&M stores(btw somebody claimed webstores don't have rents etc to worry about and so are at unfair advantage. Well duh. Several of the big webstores have actually B&M stores and big playrooms as well. So why are those B&M stores more evil then?) than preventing PDF sales.
As I said. If B&M's would get over pointless fear they could realise PDF's ain't enemy. They are opportunity to bring more cash to them.
I wonder what they will do when print-at-your-home way of distributing miniatures will become common(I figure that's probably some 10 years from now). Stores will be royally screwed trying to adapt to that if they can't even adapt to PDF rulebooks :lol:
Greg Smith
Mongoose
tneva82 said:
Not with their initial releases they weren't.
Battlefront offered the free version 3.0 book only for prior owners of the $55 USD v2.0 rules and once those are gone, will be selling version 3.0 for I believe $65 USD and there will be no pdf. Their reason for offering the change free was simply to avoid the charge of GW like behavior and it was only meant to apply to owners of the prior set. I had a stamp and a sticker put in my version 2.0 by my FLGS owner to receive my version 3.0.
Note: I will buy the full new 3.0 as well because I perceive value in the painting guides, color diagrams and bigger print. I wouldn't touch a pdf of a rules set that big.
Spartan issued Dystopia version 1.0 one year ago, they have so much errata that version 1.1 is being issued now. The errata is pdf but the full version, $50+ with no plans for a pdf.
The market for ACTA is not so big that there is any commercial value in pirating for profit and the limited number of players are such that out of enlightened self-interest, most any sensible gamer would shun a sleaze bag trying to play out of a scanned copy.
Note: I will buy the full new 3.0 as well because I perceive value in the painting guides, color diagrams and bigger print. I wouldn't touch a pdf of a rules set that big.
Spartan issued Dystopia version 1.0 one year ago, they have so much errata that version 1.1 is being issued now. The errata is pdf but the full version, $50+ with no plans for a pdf.
The market for ACTA is not so big that there is any commercial value in pirating for profit and the limited number of players are such that out of enlightened self-interest, most any sensible gamer would shun a sleaze bag trying to play out of a scanned copy.
I worked on both Armada and the second version of the Blue Book and no, BFG was and is toes up. The cruisers are plastic as are the weapons sprues, once those molds go, that's it and as far as demand, you can buy whole fleets on Ebay for the cost of a battleship in the online store.
Specialist did very well when supported but all the folks were transferred out or were fired. The free pdfs were the moral equivalent of an obituary and the fact that no new models were issued in the year prior or after the pdf white flag is pretty telling.
Specialist did very well when supported but all the folks were transferred out or were fired. The free pdfs were the moral equivalent of an obituary and the fact that no new models were issued in the year prior or after the pdf white flag is pretty telling.
