whats the deal with mongoose

[McKinstry]

Cartel? The worldwide Mongoose/ADB toy spaceship monopoly out to dominate global commerce by manipulating the release of a set of toy spaceship rules as a pdf?. This is an extremely tiny business with very tight profit margins and whatever they can do to maximize income, more power to them.

Whether, when and if ever, a pdf gets released for this toy spaceship game isn't that big a deal and my preference is for the release to be whatever works best for them as enlightened self-interest has me wanting them to thrive economically so I can continue to get more supplements, models and such.

 

[Totenkopf]

I don't know about anyone else, but trying to help keep local game stores in business cannot be a bad thing. For one these stores provide a public venue for games to be played, they allow for more people with the same interest in games to meet and play together, and they're an excellent place to find new players. So yes, it's frustrating but if it helps keep your local game store competitive and interested in ACTA:SF I don't see how that is bad - frustrating yes, but bad enough to moan like a bunch of overgrown *******?

If the stores are worth them then they will have customers. If not they will die. Economics.

But the fact they are impeding with PDF sales just shows that THEY know they are worse option and therefore can't compete on equal terms.

They want money, they offer inferior service, they know it and are looking for twisting the balance.

If there's something I hate it's cartel-style methods.

Sorry, is this a joke that I don't get because living in the United States when I think of "cartels" I think of Mexican drug cartels that chop peoples' heads off? Or is this more moral equivalency nonsense?

 

[tneva82]

Cartel? The worldwide Mongoose/ADB toy spaceship monopoly out to dominate global commerce by manipulating the release of a set of toy spaceship rules as a pdf?. This is an extremely tiny business with very tight profit margins and whatever they can do to maximize income, more power to them.

Whether, when and if ever, a pdf gets released for this toy spaceship game isn't that big a deal and my preference is for the release to be whatever works best for them as enlightened self-interest has me wanting them to thrive economically so I can continue to get more supplements, models and such.

Whethet mongoose releases pdf or not it gets released. By pirates already if not otherwise. Every day mongoose puts off it costs them sales as people get tired of waiting for official version and go for already available pirayed version.

You want mongoose sales to grow, advocate for immedite pdf release.

 

[tneva82]

I don't know about anyone else, but trying to help keep local game stores in business cannot be a bad thing. For one these stores provide a public venue for games to be played, they allow for more people with the same interest in games to meet and play together, and they're an excellent place to find new players. So yes, it's frustrating but if it helps keep your local game store competitive and interested in ACTA:SF I don't see how that is bad - frustrating yes, but bad enough to moan like a bunch of overgrown *******?

Released
If the stores are worth them then they will have customers. If not they will die. Economics.

But the fact they are impeding with PDF sales just shows that THEY know they are worse option and therefore can't compete on equal terms.

They want money, they offer inferior service, they know it and are looking for twisting the balance.

If there's something I hate it's cartel-style methods.

Sorry, is this a joke that I don't get because living in the United States when I think of "cartels" I think of Mexican drug cartels that chop peoples' heads off? Or is this more moral equivalency nonsense?

It's about using unethical ways to help them sell when they offer inferior service. Resulting in worse for customers and worse sales for mongoose wwhen players go for ALREADY available pirated pdf sales.

Brick and mortae stores know they can't compete on equal ground so tjey do what they can to enssure deck is in thei favour. Damaging customers and mongoosr in the process.

 

[Jean]

Folks, it has always been ADB's policy to promote the local game store. That's why we don't sell at a discount, that's why when we release a product it is timed so that the local game store should get it about the same time that direct mail orders would, and that is why we support Mongoose's efforts to help the stores out.

The stores really got the short end of the stick this time -- rulebooks out after the primary Christmas rush, no ships, the mix-up about when the books should be available. Please realize that we need stores to carry our games. People walk in, they see the books, they check it out because of the cover, they buy and become new customers. We have demo teams and they help grow customers, but they need a FLGS to do so effectively and to provide instant gratification to the new players who want a rulebook NOW. That means that for us, stores are part of the distribution chain and we play ball with them. As for offering "inferior service" -- well, I do feel for those people in that situation. My FLGS has been in business for years by offering top of the line service, a large gaming area open on the weekends (with homemade cookies available), and a wide variety of materials. I want them to stay in business and will miss them when I move in a year and a piece.

I know there are people who broke into my home and stole things that belonged to me, including my dog. I expect they sold my stuff. I'd hope that people who knew the items were stolen didn't buy them. We do know there are pirates. We hope that our customers are too honorable to frequent them. (Sorry, you didn't know that you pushed a button, but you did.) It really, really bothers me.

Jean

 

[Totenkopf]

So moral equivalency nonsense, check.

 

[tneva82]

So moral equivalency nonsense, check.

Delay of official pdf is bad or custtomers, bad for rule sales, bad for miniature sales and in the end even bad for stores...But they in their shortsighted greedyness don't care.

Hardly nonsene.

 

[scoutdad]

Wow!
This thread has really headed down a road I never expected to follow.

I would love to have a PDF version of the ACTA and as soon as its avaialble - I will purchase it. Until then however; I will continue to use my hard fought for, hardback rulebook.

I don't think it's greed at all that is at the root of the PDF delay. I've discussed this issue with several game publishers and game store owners and they all havethe same opinions on the matter. Most of the game designers and game companies attempt to support the local game stores for just the reasons Jean mentioned above.
You cannot walk into a internet store and browse through the rulebooks. You can not go to an internet store and play a demo game of Settlers of Catan, followed by a demo of Zombies!, followed bya demo game of ACTA: SF. You can't browse through racks adn racks of miniatures and paints... you can't schedule a time to come join in with a bunch of guys to play your favorite wargame... and so on.

At your FLGS, you can do all of those and more. Our FLGS has nights that dedicated to specific games / genres/ and companies. Everyone is free to drop in and join a game or just talk about their favorite game. Let's see you do that with a 30% off internet retailer. Without the brick and mortar stores, the wargame industry would wither and die. We depend on them to introduce newcomers to the hobby. Without the temptation to of a brightly colored box to entice you into the world of a new game, or without the lure of a tabletop full of painted ministures... the whole industry will devolveinto just the latest editions of 'Clix, Magic, and Munchkin. Not that there's anythign wrong with any of those games, but a web-store front page only has so much room and you always dedicate it to your best sellers.

PDF sales do effect the brick and mortar stores. And not becausethe B&M stores are inferior, but because the internet locations have a distinct advantage. They have no rent to pay... no utility bills to pay... no property tax... no payroll and so on.
The owner of two of our FLGS have had recent problems with this.
One of them has asked customers to leave whom he's found scanningthe barcode on the new release hrdback rulebooks and then using his smart phone to websearch for the best deal on them and then purchasing them online -while still in his store and shopping for more internet deals.
The second has removed customers from the store who have perusedthe books on teh shelf to see what they want and then used his wi-fi connection to go to Demonoid (or other torrent site) and downloaded pirated versions of the rulebooks. Not cool. Any some have used the camera feature on their smartphone to photo/scan pertinent charts so they would not have to buy the rulebook.

So Yeah, PDFs do affect brick nad mortar store sales. And you're right. There are already pirated scans of the ACTA rulebook out there. I've seenthem and reported them to the PTBs. Fortunately for Matthew, none of us would stoop so low, right?

Did the fiasco with the rulebook and miniatures hurt Mongoose. Most definitely.
Do they have a business plan in mind? Most definitely.
Should they throw out the previous plan, wreck there relationship with the B&M stores and release the PDFs now? That's their call. I'm really good at spending other peoples money, but if it was my money on the line, I'd expect everyone to let me make the decision. And Mathew has made his. Now it's up to us to support that decison.

OK. Rant mode off.

 

[Totenkopf]

+1 Tony

 

[McKinstry]

+2

 

[Ben2]

B&M stores should be supported wherever possible. My local store isn't particularly keen on Mongoose for a variety of reasons, which is why I order online.

The pdf should wait until the errata issues are dealt with whatever the pros or cons of a pdf release.

 

[tneva82]

At your FLGS, you can do all of those and more

So attract them in other ways. And use the MINIATURES for generating sales. For christ sake in the end rulebooks are MINOSCULAR part of sales. Mongoose could be offering PDF version of rulebook for free and it wouldn't affect sales notably. In miniature games sales come in miniatures.

(heck free pdf rulebook could actually help the sales. No rulebook, no miniatures to buy. Lots of people will not buy one model before they have rulebook in their hand. This delay will result in many of those simply not bothering to wait and buy another game instead)

Fortunately for Matthew, none of us would stoop so low, right?

Dream on.

Should they throw out the previous plan, wreck there relationship with the B&M stores and release the PDFs now?

If B&M wouldn't be so shortsighted PDF release could easily help their sales...Rulebook ain't where money comes in miniature games(indeed often they are barely break even if that...). Miniatures are.

Odds are in couple years we see miniature publishers skip the idea of rulebook sales and offer rules in pdf FOR FREE. It's already happening and will happen more. This way they can hook players faster resulting in miniature sale increase(where's the real cash in miniature games).

Now: Player A gets interested. "I'll buy the pdf and calculate what ships I want to buy. Damn. No PDF. Well let's wait for 1 month. Still no PDF? Still haven't got even slightest idea of what fleet to play, what models to buy, no nothing. No PDF for couple months? Screw the game. I'll start game I can at least get rules now rather than 6 months+ later"

B&M's are looking PDF's as their enemy when it could be their best ally if the B&M's would wake up and realize we aren't living in 1970's anymore....What B&M's want is players to games. To attract players you need rules available quickly and easily. PDF's is good on that. That's why there's miniature rules available for free and trend will be growing from now on. 5 years now and I'm surprised if there's many companies(other than eternally stuck on their ways GW) are bothering to actually sell rulebooks for profit. Much more cost effective to offer free rules to draw players and get them to buy the models(as said that's where real money comes from. Rulebook's are pittances if they are even doing profit)

 

[Nerroth]

For my part, the main reason why I got the pdf for ACtA:NA was because, at the time, the odds of my FLGS being able to get the hardcopy from their Canadian distributors was pretty much nil. (As it happened, the book did arrive a month or two ago; it was a surprise, but I'm glad I was able to pick it up after all. time will tell what may happen when Fleets of the Fading Suns comes around, but we'll see.)

In another non-Joint Venture-related game system I've been following lately (BattleTech), all of Catalyst's releases go up on the likes of DriveThruRPG as PDFs; some of them will remain as online only, while others will later be given actual print runs. (Like Mongoose, and unlike ADB, they don't seem to have a print-on-demand option; which is a shame, since I'd actually not mind ordering pre-printed versions of a few of their pdf-exclusives.) I suppose if I cave and get the PDF edition of Field Manual: 3085, I could at least compare and contrast it to the eventual print edition, to see if any errata generated by the online release makes it into the dead-tree edition or not; but I'd rather hold on for the next big PDF-only file I'm looking forward to (the Wars of Reaving Supplemental file).

I don't know if it would be better for me to have the option of getting the ACtA:SF PDF now, even if it required downloading further errata updates; but if the FLGS does end up getting it, I will still buy it there as a point of principle. However, I do think there is something to the pdf-then-errata-then-fixed-print-edition model, if only to make sure that the versions that stores get is that much more polished.

But then, different game companies have different business models to consider, so what is sauce for the goose need not necessarily be sauce for the gander.

 

[McKinstry]

The idea that pdf's are taking over is simply not true.

Battlefront (Flames ofWar), Spartan (Dystopia, Uncharted Seas & Firestorm Armada), Osprey/Slitherine (Field of Glory), Blackpowder & Hail Caesar from Warlord, all the Command Decision/Volley and Bayonet rules from Frank Chadwick and the the Blitzkreig/Combat/Future War Commander series are solely available in print, bound, color copies. ADB is essentially a rules company that sells a few miniatures. Many firms can make miniatures be they spaceships or Panzer IV's, holding the IP on your rules set offers a far higher margin and no competition unless someone can write a better set and even then, the current trend for glossy high end product seems to give great advantage to production values.

 

[Renny]

Using a pdf ruleset to create a market for miniatures? Ridiculous. Oh wait. http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/miniatures/judge-dredd.html.

Seriously. Release the pdf. Provide some counters so people can play the game and get hooked without having to lay out a load of cash before trying the rules out. Build a player base and take the time to get the miniatures right and make plenty of them. Then relaunch the game properly. Revised, errata-ed rulebook, ship cards and miniatures available for all of the races in the corebook when it's released.

 

[Ben2]

There are a number of miniature games that make free versions of the rules available, because you don't make money on books, you make money on miniatures.

Also giving away free pdfs means you can basically have an open beta test and update the rules with feedback received and then sell the final version print on demand for those who want it.

At the moment if you realise you've missed something you're left looking at the crates of them you have arranged about the place thinking you'll sort it out in the second printing sometime next year.

 

[Greg Smith]

Battlefront (Flames ofWar), Spartan (Dystopia, Uncharted Seas & Firestorm Armada), Osprey/Slitherine (Field of Glory), Blackpowder & Hail Caesar from Warlord, all the Command Decision/Volley and Bayonet rules from Frank Chadwick and the the Blitzkreig/Combat/Future War Commander series are solely available in print, bound, color copies.

Not to mention that other small games company, Games Workshop.

 

[ErikB]

Not to mention that other small games company, Games Workshop.

You can download the rules for things like Battlefleet Gothic and Epic Armageddon and Inquisitor though.

 

[McKinstry]

Not to mention that other small games company, Games Workshop.

You can download the rules for things like Battlefleet Gothic and Epic Armageddon and Inquisitor though.

All games they will not be doing reprints or updates for and when the molds wear out, no more miniatures.

 

[ErikB]

All games they will not be doing reprints or updates for and when the molds wear out, no more miniatures.

Sure, but it does demonstrate there is a point where GW think it is better for them to release the rules for free in the hope of persuading people to buy minis.