What happened to the Narn???????

[patton4014]

I have been reading through the new 2ed book for about two weeks now I guess that I have only one real question.

Who owns the knife that emasculated the Narn??????

I mean they used to be tough, mean and had a cool weapon called the emine. Then they had the emine sucked into a black hole called SFOS. Now they get the emine back but now suffer from “one shot” and “lumbering”.

The G’Quan was once the coolest ship in the game. Now I think it wouldn't stand up to a stiff breeze. One shot emine, no torps, slightly better short guns, but they don’t make up for the loss of emines and torps. Just one more die on a bore sight weapon??? Emines hurt a shadow ship in the tv show. Why not give it the teeth it really has?

And don’t get me started on the Dag’Kar. Going from 6 to 4 to 1 emine launcher?????? What’s up with that?

The Bin'Tak, a dreadnought, has 1 emine?????????????????????????????

The only good thing that I see in the whole race it that someone finally realized that the Var’nic was way overpriced for the “scalpel” of the regime.

These guys are supposed to be tough. They like the radiation and have ripped out all the frills from these ships. Most of these ships are even with ships in the same class in crew and damage. Why don't they have shields?? Why no redundant systems or heavy armour?? Where is the ability to crit other ships?

How can I get my tough, terrible spotted pouchlings back????

Somebody give me back my Narn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Celisasu]

Well remember that the Dag'Kar's E-Mines are AP and Triple Damage now. The old Dag'Kar served as fighter clearance. The new Dag'Kar feels more like a ship meant to sweep low crew/damage ships from the skies(most patrol craft, some skirmish vessels, White Stars). It also has more Ion Torpedo dice. You're also going to spend about half your time with closed blast doors(any turn your E-Mine is reloading) increasing your toughness. It probably deserves a slight boost in it's damage score but overall it's still solid if a bit specialized.

The Bin'Tak remains a nasty piece of work bristling with guns. Still a good warship although I do think that the G'Vrahn is better.

The G'Quan...well okay, the G'Quan is a below average vessel and I do wish that they had fixed it. There's no reason to take it other than it looks cool. It needs to have it's beam AD increased to 6.

Narn shouldn't have shields. They don't have them in the series, they shouldn't in the game. I do think that some Narn ships should have very low interceptor ratings though. In that Primus/G-Quan fight it does look like the G'Quan is intercepting some of the Primus shots so they probably should have at least Interceptors 1 or the like. Ditto for the Bin'Tak. Ka'Bin'Tak shoud have Interceptors 4 just like the G'Vrahn(the G'Vrahn for that matter should probably have it's Interceptors dropped to 2).

The T'Loth, T'Rann, Rongoth, and Rothan are probably the four Narn ships that need fixing aside from the G'Quan. None of them are truely worth taking.

The Sho'kos/Sho'kov twofers suffer from the same problem that all the twofers except maybe the Haven suffer from, namely being too good for their cost with only their handing out of extra VPs keeping them from being too strong.

 

[Sulfurdown]

Ouch, just perusing the Narn ships and some others at similar priorities and started looking between the G'Quan and the Veshatan. Just seems that the G'Quan is completely out classed by the Vesh. which is kind of sad for one of the ships you can see in the series as such an icon.

 

[patton4014]

Well remember that the Dag'Kar's E-Mines are AP and Triple Damage now. The old Dag'Kar served as fighter clearance. The new Dag'Kar feels more like a ship meant to sweep low crew/damage ships from the skies(most patrol craft, some skirmish vessels, White Stars). It also has more Ion Torpedo dice. You're also going to spend about half your time with closed blast doors(any turn your E-Mine is reloading) increasing your toughness. It probably deserves a slight boost in it's damage score but overall it's still solid if a bit specialized.

The Bin'Tak remains a nasty piece of work bristling with guns. Still a good warship although I do think that the G'Vrahn is better.

The G'Quan...well okay, the G'Quan is a below average vessel and I do wish that they had fixed it. There's no reason to take it other than it looks cool. It needs to have it's beam AD increased to 6.

Narn shouldn't have shields. They don't have them in the series, they shouldn't in the game. I do think that some Narn ships should have very low interceptor ratings though. In that Primus/G-Quan fight it does look like the G'Quan is intercepting some of the Primus shots so they probably should have at least Interceptors 1 or the like. Ditto for the Bin'Tak. Ka'Bin'Tak shoud have Interceptors 4 just like the G'Vrahn(the G'Vrahn for that matter should probably have it's Interceptors dropped to 2).

The T'Loth, T'Rann, Rongoth, and Rothan are probably the four Narn ships that need fixing aside from the G'Quan. None of them are truely worth taking.

The Sho'kos/Sho'kov twofers suffer from the same problem that all the twofers except maybe the Haven suffer from, namely being too good for their cost with only their handing out of extra VPs keeping them from being too strong.

I agree for the most part. I can deal with the 2fers just because they are point soaks that might get a lucky shot.

The DK is still too weak for the cost. With the old emines it was mostly the antifighter ship that could hurt you if you did not send something after it. THen it just became a worthless antifighter platform. But to take a ship that should be comparable to any other missle ship in the game and cut it back to a 1 shot wonder is just silly. Even with TD and AP it does not stack up to even the LNAW missle ships (which is what this supposed to be for the Narn).

I just don't understand the rest except for the Var'nic. One of the coolest ships in the game model wise is now a useful addition to the fleet. It really takes the place of the G'Quan which is now just an overpriced, underarmed piece of junk. Anyone in the right frame of mind either bumps up to the GV or down to the VN.

I am still shaking my head. Just when the Centuari are fixed and it looks like some good balance is in place with the LNAW, the narn become a worthless fleet to have.

 

[Sean-Khan]

Too bad to hear Especially as I'm going to use canon -ships mostly. Still waiting for books, so my only reference for this has been burger's ship viewer, but it doesn't have shields - has it just been forgotten? It should be 2nd ed.

So would adding 1 to laser, 1 to hull (and dropping shields) fix the ship? Dag-Kar seems pretty simple model, so I might do one too - what would you suggest for a fix for it then?

 

[angelus2000]

Nothing. Dag'Kars are like Saggi cheese, useful and appropriate in low numbers, retardly powerful in large ones. Their weapons were upgraded, and 30/38 dam/crew tracks is better than many close-in vessels at their level, and quite a bit better than any other long-range support vessel. And BTW, Dag'Kars are Slow-Loading, not One-Shot.

Narn don't have shields, period.

Narn don't need interceptors, thats what Frazi's and very high dam/crew scores per PL are for.

Var'Nics are awesome, period.

G'Quans are quite good. About the only thing it really needs is 1AD more to its beams, then it would be perfect. Again, highest Dam/Crew Score in its class among the Big 4.

Ka'Tans are now quite good at E-Mine spamming, even being One-Shot, especially when squadroned. Again, see high Dam/Crew track.

Rothans/Rongoths are now useful as opposed to useless. Arguably, they need to be bumped back to Hull 6 however, with corresponding lowering of the Dam/Crew track.

G'Sten/G'Karith muc more useful now. Hull 4 ain't near the disadvantage as it was in 1e. G'Karith still packs Pulsar Mine fighter clearance goodness.

T'Rann/Frazis still suck. Thats what G'Kariths and Emines are for.

G'Vrahns are awesome, period.

Bin'Tak needs longer range secondaries, in the 10-12" range class. Needs more Emine dice, 2 should do it. Otherwise, awesome.

G'Quonth is now a viable alternative. Emines are SL as opposed to Bin Taks One shot.


I could continue going on but its rather pointless. Narn in 2e are easily twice as scary as they were in 1e. The fleet list is much more balanced across the PL's and at every PL. Emines in any sort of numbers can near cripple certain fleets with the first shot, which only serves the Narn so much better because ship for ship, they are simply tougher than anyone else(although i do miss the Variants, shipbreakers were fun).

Practically the only reason I no longer play Narn is simply due to having to paint the minis; I cordially detest painting that zig-zag pattern. If I could find someone else to paint them for cheap, I'd drop about 8 Arma points in their lap and let them go to town.

EDIT: Another Emine benefit they still retain. It's a template weapon that neither stealth or interceptors can stop, and if your lucky can hit 2-4 ships at the same time. About the only that can save you is shields, and nothing but a Ancient shadow ship carries enough shields to really stop an emine attack. Did I mention it was AP now btw?

 

[angelus2000]

Emines hurt a shadow ship in the tv show. Why not give it the teeth it really has?

IIRC those Emines didn't do diddly squat to those Shadow ships, they pretty much cruised through like the emines were a light breeze.

 

[Hans Olo]

The Dra'Kar has 1 six AD Slow loading E- Mine launcher.
I think that's quite good now.
But I have to admit the G'Quan and his variants are a joke as the T`Loth, T'Rann and Rongoth Rotan are.

Before the release of 2nd ed the Narn players where promised to get ships that have Damage scores one level higher as the ship is actually rated. Reality is that not the Narn but the Brakirie have those ships now.
Of course in most cases the Narn have higher Damage scores as most of the other fleets, but we are talking about what? 5 Points?
That's not exactly what I would call an advantage in damage scores.

Anyway the Battle and above levels have suffered in efficiency since the release of 2nd ed.
You really have to thing twice before choosing an Battle level ship because Raid and Skirmish choices are still fare superior.

One of the things causing this problems is the new Beam rule (I'm not getting tired of saying that it was a stupid fix for Hull 4, ships to make a single Weapon category less effective against thin armored ships but in comparison more deadly against thick armored Battleships, just a silly idea :evil: )

 

[madpax]

Funny, I thought the Narns, maybe the fleet I played most (but not as much as I would), was one of the lesser fleet in ACTA, before 2ed. Now I feel that if they could be tweaked, they are a better fleet than before. They still have virtually no defense. No shield, no interceptors (one exception), no GEG, low antifighter (although they don't really need it), no stealth no dodge, no adaptive armour, no nothing. OK, they have better crew and hull point values, but it's better to block damage than to absorb it, as you would have to face more critics.
I also feel the G'quan is a little low for a battle ship, but the G'lan is worse. I remember playing it many times in B5Wars, and the mag gun was a truly awesome weapon. Now it's just a little bit more powerful than a laser. 2 AD...pfff...
At least, the G'tal is a good command ship, but if I have to choose some battle ships, G'lan wouldn't be my choice.

By the way, fluff says that the Frazi was designed to counter the sentri, and to win. Could someone say to narns scientits that they fail in that regard.

Marc

 

[angelus2000]

They still have virtually no defense. No shield, no interceptors (one exception), no GEG, low antifighter (although they don't really need it), no stealth no dodge, no adaptive armour, no nothing. OK, they have better crew and hull point values, but it's better to block damage than to absorb it, as you would have to face more critics.

Most other fleets have no other defense either, or if they do they have correspondingly lower dam/crew tracks. EA ships have interceptors, but 7-10 damage/crew less than a Narn counterpart. Aside from the Maximus and Adira, Cent have pratically no other defense. Emines make a mockery of Minbari stealth. Only the Ancients and ISA have adaptive armor or shields. And almost all of those kinds of defenses have ways of negating them; Emines, beams, bucketloads of dice. More Damage/Crew is the one-size fits all defense, good against anything.

By and large the new Beam rule works, quite well in fact. The average I've noticed is that the number of hits corresponds a great deal with the starting AD of the Beam weapon, averaged out over a couple of games. Then thiers the freak hits that wipe a clean omega from the board in one shot (18 hits with a DD Beam ain't pretty).

I will agree though, that Battle and above didn't get quite the boost from 2e that raid and below did, especially in the Patrol PL.

 

[emperorpenguin]

Who owns the knife that emasculated the Narn??????

I mean they used to be tough, mean and had a cool weapon called the emine. Then they had the emine sucked into a black hole called SFOS. Now they get the emine back but now suffer from “one shot” and “lumbering”.

The G’Quan was once the coolest ship in the game. Now I think it wouldn't stand up to a stiff breeze. One shot emine, no torps, slightly better short guns, but they don’t make up for the loss of emines and torps. Just one more die on a bore sight weapon??? Emines hurt a shadow ship in the tv show. Why not give it the teeth it really has?

Why don't they have shields?? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Err where exactly did the G'Quan actually HAVE torpedoes!? :roll:

The energy mines now CAN hurt ships where before they were only useful as an anti-fighter weapon

Because Narn don't have shields in the show.... :roll: oh dear, oh dear, oh dear...

are you actually aware of what the Narn are really like? Have you seen the show? :?

 

[madpax]

They still have virtually no defense. No shield, no interceptors (one exception), no GEG, low antifighter (although they don't really need it), no stealth no dodge, no adaptive armour, no nothing. OK, they have better crew and hull point values, but it's better to block damage than to absorb it, as you would have to face more critics.

Most other fleets have no other defense either

EA has interceptors, as Centauri to a lesser extent. Abbai have interceptors and shield. Minbari have stealth, drazi have dodge, ISA have dodge and/adaptive armour, drakh have GEG, vorlons have adpative armor, shadow have shields, etc., and many other fleets have better anti-fighters. No, I disagree, Narns, in that regard, are one of the worst fleet (in that regard, I insist).

, or if they do they have correspondingly lower dam/crew tracks. EA ships have interceptors, but 7-10 damage/crew less than a Narn counterpart.

As I said, it's better to avoid damage than to absorb it, when it comes to critis.

Aside from the Maximus and Adira, Cent have pratically no other defense. Emines make a mockery of Minbari stealth.

Never thought them with 2ed, but now that dag-kar has only one emine launcher, and many other are one-shot only, I wonder if now minbari are more vulnerable than before.

Only the Ancients and ISA have adaptive armor or shields. And almost all of those kinds of defenses have ways of negating them; Emines, beams, bucketloads of dice. More Damage/Crew is the one-size fits all defense, good against anything.

I prefer having interceptors against bucket load of dice than nothing against the same bucket load of dice. Having more damage/crew points doesn't do any good againts crits.

By and large the new Beam rule works, quite well in fact. The average I've noticed is that the number of hits corresponds a great deal with the starting AD of the Beam weapon, averaged out over a couple of games. Then thiers the freak hits that wipe a clean omega from the board in one shot (18 hits with a DD Beam ain't pretty).

Agreed, and much more than before, what a relieve when your opponent throws only 3 or less on each AD... :lol:

Marc

 

[angelus2000]

angelus2000 wrote:
Quote:
They still have virtually no defense. No shield, no interceptors (one exception), no GEG, low antifighter (although they don't really need it), no stealth no dodge, no adaptive armour, no nothing. OK, they have better crew and hull point values, but it's better to block damage than to absorb it, as you would have to face more critics.



Most other fleets have no other defense either

EA has interceptors, as Centauri to a lesser extent. Abbai have interceptors and shield. Minbari have stealth, drazi have dodge, ISA have dodge and/adaptive armour, drakh have GEG, vorlons have adpative armor, shadow have shields, etc., and many other fleets have better anti-fighters. No, I disagree, Narns, in that regard, are one of the worst fleet (in that regard, I insist).

With the exception of Adaptive Armor, shields, and GEG, all of those defenses are completely negated by Narns two primary weapons systems, Beams and Emines. Drahk, Vorlon, and Shadows give up a lot to gain those defenses too.

 

[Locutus9956]

The Mag Gun is WAAAAAY better than a laser:

1) Tripple Damage. The implications of this REALLY shine when you get a big hit or nasty crit.

2) Forward arc as oppossed to Boresight. This really should speak for itself!

As for Emines: Yes alot of them are one shot now but they can do HORRIFIC damage especially to smaller swarmy ships (like say the traditional enemy of the Vorchan/Demos....). They can potentially devastate 2 or even 3 ships in a group. And theyre unbelievably sick vs Minbari (and pretty good vs EA as well who rely heavily on interceptors (and fighters). And dont foget that theres ships like the Dag'Kar that are just plain NASTY.

Narns in general: As noted theres some HORRIBLY nasty ships in the Narn fleet, the Dag'Kar and Varnic spring to mind and the G'Vrahn is verging on broken (but I think it's just the right side of that line still... (rather like the Demos and the entire Gaim fleet ). The Dag'Kar as has been noted is I think if used 'en masse' actually a pretty damn cheesy (but thats not really the fault of the ship its the tactic really, in ANY game massed long range fire tends to be very effective, very boring and very unsporting (Try 10 Saggitarius at 5pt raid or 5 Sullusts in 1st edition, or massed Nova Cannons in BFG, or fielding an elf army in WFB that takes nothing but a cheap general and as many archers as legally possible (and so on and so forth))

These are all counterable with certain forces of course but it is STILL frankly just not much fun to play against. Its this problem that tends to make the Dag'Kar a bit beardy if abused. You dont have to DO anything except scream 'Fire!' (presumably getting slowly out of your chair and clenching your fist and turning bright red a la William Shatner ) and roll a bunch of dice, theres very little TACTICS involved (this incidentally is my main beef with the Gaim, not that theyre unbeatable (I dont believe they are) just that their massed long range turret emines render them a tad dull to fight against).

But I digress..... (yes I know I do that alot and use that phrase alot as well but I thik its a good phrase so yah boo sucks to you Jimmy!* )

Narn are NOT 'nerfed' in 2nd Ed, theyre DIFFERENT but overall I actually think they're an improvement. And for the record the G'Quan NEVER had torpedoes! Not even in B5 Wars. I've got EVERY ACTA fleet list ever published and all the original supplements except for the revised 1st ed book (which was the same as SFoS without troops basically). In fact the only version of the G'Quan I CANT say with abosolute certainty never had torpedoes would be Fleet Action and they as far as I know would be basically the same as B5W just simplified! Some of the VARIANTS may have had torps but not the GQuan itself!

*This is just an expression, I don't know anyone called Jimmy and if you read this and happened to be called Jimmy this is not aimed at you specifically!

 

[noobdelux]

trie em out a few time, you might be surpriced!

 

[madpax]

The Mag Gun is WAAAAAY better than a laser:

1) Tripple Damage. The implications of this REALLY shine when you get a big hit or nasty crit.

Yes, but with 2 AD only, I know it wil not make such a big difference. And you lose almost half of your range. Knowing that they are usually carried by lumbering ships, you shouldn't expect much fire as soon as you began to be close.

2) Forward arc as oppossed to Boresight. This really should speak for itself!

The only real advantage, but not that much, due to the lumbering trait.

You dont have to DO anything except scream 'Fire!' (presumably getting slowly out of your chair and clenching your fist and turning bright red a la William Shatner )

that's an idea! :lol:

Marc

 

[Da Boss]

Recently being fighting and watching battles with White Stars and Vorlon transports etc with 2 AD beams - can be scary how many hits you get - also a crit or two with tripple damage can kill a ship...............

we had two War level ships killed in the same turn ( 1 on each side ) on Wednesday night to 6,5 crits with double and tripple damage beams respectively (one from a 3D beam).

 

[Locutus9956]

The Mag Gun is WAAAAAY better than a laser:

1) Tripple Damage. The implications of this REALLY shine when you get a big hit or nasty crit.

Yes, but with 2 AD only, I know it wil not make such a big difference. And you lose almost half of your range. Knowing that they are usually carried by lumbering ships, you shouldn't expect much fire as soon as you began to be close.

2) Forward arc as oppossed to Boresight. This really should speak for itself!

The only real advantage, but not that much, due to the lumbering trait.

You dont have to DO anything except scream 'Fire!' (presumably getting slowly out of your chair and clenching your fist and turning bright red a la William Shatner )

that's an idea! :lol:

Marc

It's worth noting that where the G'Lans concerned though that you STILL have a laser as well (its just shorter ranged but otherwise identicle to the regular G'Quans one).

What youre really trading the Mag gun for is the Emines and better laser range not the laser itself.

Basically the G'Lan to me is now actually a pretty fine ship, its a mid range heavy hitter rather than a stand off ship like the G'Quan, and given both ships toughness I think the G'Lan is actually quite a nasty piece of work now. Alos bear in mind it carries a couple of Frazis as well, and with the change to fighters (or more precicely the change to ANTI fighter) Frazis can actually be rather dangerous!

Lumbering IS a handicap to be sure as well, but when you get right down to it it doesnt really make the G'Quan and its varients THAT much less maneuverable than they used to be anyway! It can still turn just as soon and can even use come to new about to turn 90 degrees (remeber lumbering stops you making ADITIONAL TURNS, not increasing how much you turn at one time) it just has to STOP at that point rather than carry on moving a bit more (again for me no big deal given how slow it is anyway!)

Also as noted 2AD can still make all the difference. High damage modifiers in my experience really have their biggest impact not with just taking chunks out of stuff but by magnifying big crits to shocking levels (though with enough dice they can work both ways..... and with beams its still possible even with only 2AD!)

 

[H]

My Narn had a 5 battle point outing against the Minbari last night. Whilst I lost, this was mostly down to the 4-1 crit ratio in the favour of the Minbari, indeed I had one G'Quan carrying 14 criticals, more than the entire Minbari fleet had suffered.
Don't let that fool you, some bad choices by me, and my dismal stealth rolling indeed dismal dice rolling contributed to my downfall as much as the Sharoos crit monster of doom!! Whilst I do think the G'Quan needs some boosting, the narn are far from weak, although they do come undone when facing lots of dice, Demos, and Dilgar in particular have crushed me in recent weeks. I also disagree with the comments on the t'loth, rothan and rongoth, they all have very respectable amounts of damage and are good at what they do, it's just they happen to be in priority levels where there are much better options!

for the record, the narn lost 1 G'Quan, 1 Scout, 3 Thentus, 2 G'Karith, and had 2 mauled dag'kars and a mangled G'Quan left. the Minbari lost 2 Escort destroyer things, one Ashinta varient and one hanging on for dear life, and had a third damaged Sharoos, although the Morshin looked healthy as a salad!

 

[Da Boss]

I do agree the G'Quan is a bit weak for it PL and compared to other ships in its class