and Im talking about in a campaign setting where everyone is going to inevitably lose fighters, my 5 RR will buy back 1 nial while your 5 RR will buy back 3 EA fighters. And how about Minbari being the ONLY fleet in the game without the Reenforced hull option on the refit chart...like nerfed stealth means we don't need the ability to increase the damage we can take. and the only fleet that doesnt get extra RR on the duties chart. Also the additional weapons fitted refit only working on 5AD+ weapons when 80% of the fleets artillery is only 4AD or less.
What did the Minbari ever do to mongoose?
- Thread starter Vertexx69
- Start date
Vertexx69 said:
I'm sorry, where is the refit for every other reace to get stealth on every Ship? where are all the precise beams and minibeams for the Narn, the Dilgar? the League? where are our superfast fighters, where is the 8 fighter carrier for most races, why don't our war ships get all those Nials, you can't have everything. If you have such an outlook, that the boneheads MUST have all these things, they would become unbeateable, IF every race had everything, you would have a very boring game.
I'm sorry, but I can't believe people are whining about the Minbari. OK, I reckon yes, you deserve an extra Nial per flight, but thats it, and it isn't the be all and end all, I have still yet to see fighters truly win a game (since presfos anyway) all the other things you don't need, unless of course you only want to win without a challenge, and are so scared of loosing you would rather demand an upgrade to YOUR race to achieve that end. Here Endeth my "i'm pissed of with whiny Minbari players" post.
Why is it that any time anyone points out any deficiencies, whether they do so in a reasoned, logical way or not, they are accused of whining?
Similarly, why is it considered acceptable to have underpowered ships (goodness, if you complain about that, you're whining) whereas overpowered ships are jumped on and sorted straight away (can't have anyone with an unfair advantage! - oh, wait, hangon).
Surely if one fleet has many underpowered ships, then by comparison other fleets are relatively overpowered?
There are some nice things about Minbari. Stealth is only middling nowadays, and I would say that the nerf, paired with the already paper thin hulls, is not one of them. Weapons are nice, but a precise, SAP, DD beam is only so good when you get fewer AD at more restricted ranges vs. the opposition (compare the Teshlan to the Prefect or Sulust for instance).
Secondary armament for Minbari is a big strength, and their fighters are good. But they're too expensive by far. The Carrier/Wings cost imbalance is pretty clear and would be a quick, stopgap fix for the lowest PL. But the Torotha really deserves a revamp, or alternatives. 'agility like that of a whitestar'? How is 2/45 similar to 2/90?
Similarly, why is it considered acceptable to have underpowered ships (goodness, if you complain about that, you're whining) whereas overpowered ships are jumped on and sorted straight away (can't have anyone with an unfair advantage! - oh, wait, hangon).
Surely if one fleet has many underpowered ships, then by comparison other fleets are relatively overpowered?
There are some nice things about Minbari. Stealth is only middling nowadays, and I would say that the nerf, paired with the already paper thin hulls, is not one of them. Weapons are nice, but a precise, SAP, DD beam is only so good when you get fewer AD at more restricted ranges vs. the opposition (compare the Teshlan to the Prefect or Sulust for instance).
Secondary armament for Minbari is a big strength, and their fighters are good. But they're too expensive by far. The Carrier/Wings cost imbalance is pretty clear and would be a quick, stopgap fix for the lowest PL. But the Torotha really deserves a revamp, or alternatives. 'agility like that of a whitestar'? How is 2/45 similar to 2/90?
Locutus9956
Mongoose
animus said:
yep that annoyed me at first too. But to be honest I tend to simply ignore most of the Mongoose fluff and use the AoG stuff for background info which is MUCH better.
Incidentally acording to the AoG books the Tinashi HULL dates back to the last shadow war but that actual design varient is somewhat more recent (though their in service date still predates the Mongoose one). The ones in the previous shadow war though DO have stats.
They are actually armed more like Tigaras, as during the last shadow war the Minbari mainly relied on antimatter weaponry, however with advances in stealth technology and long ranged weapons like neutron lasers they phased most of it out by the time they encountered the EA, finding antimatter weapons too unreliable and problematic.
As an iteresting aside the Vree gravitic engines, artifical gravity and anti matter weaponry was originally based on reverse engineered tech they salavaged from a destroyed squadron of such War Frigates left over from the last war.
As I've said on many many occasions, I love ACTA and enjoy the game alot but frankly the fluff is just crap compared to the B5Wars books
I brought this up on a rulesmasters thread, since the in service dates were so out of what with what I thought was a Tinashi on screen, was corrected.
Also, it was strange that the Sharlin (current design) was apparently around during the last shadow war, or immediately afterwards (IIRC).
Still, if Mongoose ever do release a campaign book for the last shadow war, you'd get to use a good few models from your Minbari fleet, and also Ancients and Soul Hunters... against lots and lots of shadow ships. Nifty.
Also, it was strange that the Sharlin (current design) was apparently around during the last shadow war, or immediately afterwards (IIRC).
Still, if Mongoose ever do release a campaign book for the last shadow war, you'd get to use a good few models from your Minbari fleet, and also Ancients and Soul Hunters... against lots and lots of shadow ships. Nifty.
Locutus9956
Mongoose
hiffano said:
People arent accused of whining unless they are being genuinely whiney. Pointing out deficiancies is one thing, yes 2 Nials per wing might be fairer especially when it comes to replacing losses but people were not just saying 'its a bit pricey to replace losses it might be better if we had 2 per wing' they were (more or less) saying 'OMG were cant win ever again cos we'll just get ganked by fighter swarms every time!!!' I'm sorry but some of the posts in this thread are way WAY past 'pointing out defficiancies' theyre flat out complaining that the game is unfair and its too hard to play Minbari and making claims about deficiancies which are more than compensated for.
Minbari have weaker hulls yes. This is the why you have stealth.
Stealth has been nerfed, again trued, but its still a very powerful defence mechanism. If you want to really benefit from it you have to stay at range but Minbari tend to have excellent weapon range and very good maneuvering characteristics too!
And as for their weaponry they outgun just about every other race if you compare individual ships (at raid and above). Also every ship in the fleet has advanced jump engines allwoing you to jump in where scenarios allow BEHIND the enemy at long range and immediately open fire. People seem to be far too preocupied with using AJP to hit people with jump points and overlook the far more effective tactic of using it put youreself in possition to engage the enemy at long range for several turns before they can even get close to you!
Sure the Minbari arent overpoweringly nasty any more but theyre still a very formidable opponent and I must agree with Hiffano that anyone claiming the Minbari, as a fleet, are weak, is most definitely being whiney.
The style of the fleet HAS changed a bit and that requires you to adjust your tactics. If you dont do so then yes youre going to lose horribly if you just use the old Minbari tactic of 'close slowly CAFing with neautron lasers laughing as your opponents fail their 5+ and 6+ stealth rolls and ingonring anemy fighters as you can wade in and get a +14 advantage in every dogfight.....'
It's all to easy to complain about defficiancies with a fleet rather than learning to overcome them. Every fleet in ACTA has weaknesses. If they didnt then they would simply be broken. Thats the essence of tactics, you must exploit your opponents weaknesses whilst covering your own:
Minbari Strengths:
Steath
Superior firepower
Excellent ships and fighters
Excellent weapon range
Weaknesses:
Fragile hulls
High cost so tend to be outnumbered
Now from this I would have thought it was obvious that they're a 'Finesse Fleet', you must do as much damage at long range as possible and avoid being fired at as much as possible as its easy to lose ships to 'lucky shots')
animus said:
Thats the in service date of Neutron laser armed Tinashis, not the date the first hull was released (See the Hyperion and its variants as an example). Those of the Shadow War (accordign to AoG), had anti-matter weaponry (hence Vree reverse engineering). B5Wars even had a molecular weaponry armed Sharlin variant, though it was not significantly upgunned from a Tigara.
Locutus9956 said:
I'll second Locutus9956 post above. Sure Minbari have been changed with Armageddon, how could they not with the alteration to Stealth? I don't think they have been nerfed into unplayability, but I am still tweaking my tactics again to compensate and mitigate the effects of the Stealth and fighter changes.
I would tend to question the 'superior firepower' tag. Centauri outgun them in terms of both AD and range comparing Battle Lasers to Neutron Lasers up to Battle PL. Even at battle PL, the Primus gets more AD at the same range as the Tinashi. Then you jump up to war, and the Octurion outranges the Sharlin with the same AD.
Yes, precise sets them apart, but fewer AD = fewer chances to hit in the first instance. Shorter range = more chances for them to shoot at you.
Minbari strength in terms of firepower seems to be really focused around their secondary armament (18" range - except on Torotha) Fusion cannons are very, very nice.
Yes, precise sets them apart, but fewer AD = fewer chances to hit in the first instance. Shorter range = more chances for them to shoot at you.
Minbari strength in terms of firepower seems to be really focused around their secondary armament (18" range - except on Torotha) Fusion cannons are very, very nice.
Locutus9956
Mongoose
You said it youreslf, superior firepower is not just about the main lasers, fusion beams are incredibly powerful for secondary weapons and massively outrange all but the main guns of other races in most cases!
My overall point is that the Minbari stregths make up for their weaknesses in other areas. If you want to try an example put a primus up against a Tinashi and fight them a few times. I reckon you'll find the Tinashi wins more often than not.... Same for an Octurion vs a Sharlin. Mibari weapons may not have the same outright power and range on their lasers but precise is a HUGELY potent ability and once you get to 18" you can fire all your other weapons while your opponent still only has their main guns (not to mention the fact theyve generally got at least a 50% chance to completely misse regardless of their attack rolls at thes ranges!)
My overall point is that the Minbari stregths make up for their weaknesses in other areas. If you want to try an example put a primus up against a Tinashi and fight them a few times. I reckon you'll find the Tinashi wins more often than not.... Same for an Octurion vs a Sharlin. Mibari weapons may not have the same outright power and range on their lasers but precise is a HUGELY potent ability and once you get to 18" you can fire all your other weapons while your opponent still only has their main guns (not to mention the fact theyve generally got at least a 50% chance to completely misse regardless of their attack rolls at thes ranges!)
Iain McGhee
Mongoose
I wasn't really complaining about my Minbari actually being beatable now 
For one thing, I play several fleets, including EA, and I just think that the balance has shifted a little too much against them. Although that's me thinking more of their presumed capabilities in the series as opposed to the (playable) version in ACTA. After all if you used the B5 canon as gospel then NONE of the younger races would ever be able to lock on to their ships. If Mongoose introduced a game mechanic like that then you'd really see the whining start :lol:
In ACTA terms it just means that Minbari players will have to alter their tactics a bit and perhaps make more use of the Morshin carrier and the Tishat light fighter.
For one thing, I play several fleets, including EA, and I just think that the balance has shifted a little too much against them. Although that's me thinking more of their presumed capabilities in the series as opposed to the (playable) version in ACTA. After all if you used the B5 canon as gospel then NONE of the younger races would ever be able to lock on to their ships. If Mongoose introduced a game mechanic like that then you'd really see the whining start :lol:
In ACTA terms it just means that Minbari players will have to alter their tactics a bit and perhaps make more use of the Morshin carrier and the Tishat light fighter.
Since I'm still new to the game, I have no preconceptions about tactics and so on. I'm quite happy to use a Morshin (although I'm struggling to try and justify it for a 5 point raid fleet in November... it /might/ work. I'll just have to accept defeat the moment the Narn roll up).
The funny thing is, I seem to have joined the game (and the Minbari) on the crux of some pretty big rules changes. It's all well and good saying 'keep range' but as Burger and others have pointed out, your opponent is under no obligation to /let you do that/. Only the Sharlin and Neshatan have rear and side arc beams, so turning tail is only viable at war and above. Otherwise how can you keep range and stay engaged?
The funny thing is, I seem to have joined the game (and the Minbari) on the crux of some pretty big rules changes. It's all well and good saying 'keep range' but as Burger and others have pointed out, your opponent is under no obligation to /let you do that/. Only the Sharlin and Neshatan have rear and side arc beams, so turning tail is only viable at war and above. Otherwise how can you keep range and stay engaged?
Locutus9956
Mongoose
Hence my cunning point about using your jump engines where possible to come in behind them so they cant just rush at you etc etc. Your opponent as you note is of course going to try and close with you but it is afterall a game of maneuver so the whole POINT is to try and keep range if you want to win. Dont expect your ships to win the game for you, you have to use them correctly 
Greg Smith
Mongoose
Approach at an angle. Don't set up opposite your opponent. Use your turns to keep his ships in arc, but don't turn to face him directly. If you move at angle of 45 degrees to him, you will only move a fraction towards him compared to what you move if you head towards him.
Use all stop. Use all power to engines to over shoot him when he starts to get close.
Use all stop. Use all power to engines to over shoot him when he starts to get close.
Lorcan Nagle
Mongoose
I play against the Minbari quite a bit, and I feel that they're pretty well balanced right now. They still beat me senseless, but I can come close to fighting them to a draw.
Tzarevitch
Mongoose
Alexb83 said:
Yes but at those ranges due to the stealth, unless the centauri has help, he can't fire AT ALL most of the time. When you factor the stealth in the Minbari far outguns the centauri.
Tzarevitch
Locutus9956
Mongoose
Tzarevitch said:
Just want to make sure people are getting this one right so a little comment here: A failed stealth roll does NOT stop you firing, it means you MISS. This is obviously a VERY important distinction for slow loading weapons...
The stealth roll is NOT to lock onto the target, due to the stealth system you CANT lock on. Ever. The stealth roll as I see it represents manually attempting to enter a firing solution for the ship where you you think it is. If you fail the roll your crew has got it a bit wrong and you've missed as a result. Ships with higher stealth ratings are harder to detect at all even passively hence its harder to target them in this manner (thats how I see it anyway, frankly the idea of a stealth system that only stops you being targeted 50% of the time in most cases is just stupid)
Alexb83 said:
Tp point out deficiencies, to offer solutions, to try to argue a valid point, is fully acceptable, however when it is harped on about repeatedly, and the people who try to offer a case against are shot down in flames, it becomes self obsessed whining. Luckily, this thread has not, as yet, hit the fantastic heighst of the Centauri are weak thread,
Now I'm gonna point out that I'm new to miniature games and after investing $200 in Minbari minis and books to play in a campaign starting up today, I'm just a bit disconcerted about the advancement portions like replacing fighters and not getting any tougher.
And I created this thread specifically to vent to strangers about it so I don't become "whiney" to the people I'm actually going to be playing with. and if you don't like it you can just stop watching the thread =P
And now a few general questions:
If several ships use the "stand down and prepair to be boarded" SA successfully, do they all get the double XP dice for forcing the surrender?
If a squardon destroys/cripples/skeleton crews a ship do they all get the XP dice from it?
Can you get XP dice for crippling/skeleton crewing and forcing a surrender?
When a squadron attacks, do you have to declare targets from all ships at the same time before doing damage, or can you target with all of a single ships systems then do damage and repeat for each ship in the squadron?
And I created this thread specifically to vent to strangers about it so I don't become "whiney" to the people I'm actually going to be playing with. and if you don't like it you can just stop watching the thread =P
And now a few general questions:
If several ships use the "stand down and prepair to be boarded" SA successfully, do they all get the double XP dice for forcing the surrender?
If a squardon destroys/cripples/skeleton crews a ship do they all get the XP dice from it?
Can you get XP dice for crippling/skeleton crewing and forcing a surrender?
When a squadron attacks, do you have to declare targets from all ships at the same time before doing damage, or can you target with all of a single ships systems then do damage and repeat for each ship in the squadron?
Slightly Norse John
Mongoose
I don't want to sound like some old grognard, but really, play the game and some of your questions will answer themselves. Using the rules is the best way to the logic of them.
The first ship to use 'stand down' successfully gets the credit for it. It is not simultaneous, and any ship doing so subsequently is flogging a dead horse- they've already surrendered by then.
Fire from a squadron has to be declared by all ships before any rolling of dice occurs, but it usually makes more sense, i.e. avoids confusion and problems like this, if you resolve each weapon system on each ship individually.
Especially as no, only the ship that does the damage gets the XP.
Say, for instance, three squadroned Salust- I could try for a single twelve dice splash of laserfire, but it's a lot simpler to roll three sets of four, because then the ship that does the damage gets the credit, and XP.
It's possible for one ship to get the XP from cripple/skeleton, for instance, and the next ship to tip the target over the edge and get the points for zeroing it. Trying to arrange this deliberately is probably cheesing it.
The first ship to use 'stand down' successfully gets the credit for it. It is not simultaneous, and any ship doing so subsequently is flogging a dead horse- they've already surrendered by then.
Fire from a squadron has to be declared by all ships before any rolling of dice occurs, but it usually makes more sense, i.e. avoids confusion and problems like this, if you resolve each weapon system on each ship individually.
Especially as no, only the ship that does the damage gets the XP.
Say, for instance, three squadroned Salust- I could try for a single twelve dice splash of laserfire, but it's a lot simpler to roll three sets of four, because then the ship that does the damage gets the credit, and XP.
It's possible for one ship to get the XP from cripple/skeleton, for instance, and the next ship to tip the target over the edge and get the points for zeroing it. Trying to arrange this deliberately is probably cheesing it.
