What did the Minbari ever do to mongoose?
- Thread starter Vertexx69
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Slightly Norse John
Mongoose
I always loved the name they gave to the psychological-statistics unit of improbability; the Standard Deviation. 
There's such a thing as a normal fluke; a certain amount of variation you expect from sheer dumb luck. 1SD is basically the point beyond which, in order to be that far away from the results you were expecting, there must be some other operating factor.
Was the Minbari player getting the figures for Range and AD the wrong way round? Or were their dice psionically active, like mine?
(I am reasonably certain that dice become attuned to their environment. At home, I routinely expect to do things like score eleven hits on hull 6 with a Targrath's bolters, and get four crits. Way outside statistical norms. What makes it worse is that at the games club, they roll reasonably average for the first couple of turns, then increase in performance. I am, of course, kidding- but I'd never admit it to my dice. If they think I believe in them...)
When it comes to better Narn, well, I might have a deal for you. Your Mag Gun is basically a modification of the Centauri Mass Driver. I know certain people who, ley us say, would be prepared to place a certain value on that technology, there would be a reciprocal exchange of course.
There's such a thing as a normal fluke; a certain amount of variation you expect from sheer dumb luck. 1SD is basically the point beyond which, in order to be that far away from the results you were expecting, there must be some other operating factor.
Was the Minbari player getting the figures for Range and AD the wrong way round? Or were their dice psionically active, like mine?
(I am reasonably certain that dice become attuned to their environment. At home, I routinely expect to do things like score eleven hits on hull 6 with a Targrath's bolters, and get four crits. Way outside statistical norms. What makes it worse is that at the games club, they roll reasonably average for the first couple of turns, then increase in performance. I am, of course, kidding- but I'd never admit it to my dice. If they think I believe in them...)
When it comes to better Narn, well, I might have a deal for you. Your Mag Gun is basically a modification of the Centauri Mass Driver. I know certain people who, ley us say, would be prepared to place a certain value on that technology, there would be a reciprocal exchange of course.
There are a few things the Minbari fleet could do with - but short of adding more variants (and there are a few redundant ones already IMO) into the list, I'd say it would make sense to do the following:
Add ISA allies as an option to the fleet, or give the minbari fleet white stars within certain IS dates (they did afterall build and operate the white stars prior to the shadow war).
Add in other minbari built/operated ships such as the Liandra and Imphali and Valen for the crusade era (putting them in the very empty lower PL slots, with Valen perhaps at battle).
Put in some new ships which take advantage of the post-ancients tech. the Narn, EA and Centauri all seem to have new toys, whereas the technological development of the Minbari seems to have been limited to putting TD rather than DD beams on a few very expensive (and in the case of Neroon, undercrewed, underhulled) ships. Adaptive armour or stealth 6+ would be a nice idea.
Give 2 nials for one patrol point. Perhaps remove the CQ check from skin dancing for minbari (all warrior caste pilots are trained in how to do it).
Add ISA allies as an option to the fleet, or give the minbari fleet white stars within certain IS dates (they did afterall build and operate the white stars prior to the shadow war).
Add in other minbari built/operated ships such as the Liandra and Imphali and Valen for the crusade era (putting them in the very empty lower PL slots, with Valen perhaps at battle).
Put in some new ships which take advantage of the post-ancients tech. the Narn, EA and Centauri all seem to have new toys, whereas the technological development of the Minbari seems to have been limited to putting TD rather than DD beams on a few very expensive (and in the case of Neroon, undercrewed, underhulled) ships. Adaptive armour or stealth 6+ would be a nice idea.
Give 2 nials for one patrol point. Perhaps remove the CQ check from skin dancing for minbari (all warrior caste pilots are trained in how to do it).
Locutus9956
Mongoose
I must say its stating to get a bit tiresome the amount of whinging about 'my fleet is at a disadvantage against this particular enemy at this particular priority level, its not fair Im not playing any more wah wah wah and so on.
The Minbari are weak at patrol level and skirmish. So whats new? They ALWAYS been weak at that level. Dilgar are also very strong at Raid level. Again no change there. Armageddon really hasnt changed THAT much. Mibari ships cant rely on stealth as much sure but they are tougher than the tourney versions by contrast (it IS quite a downgrade if youd only used the SFoS variety before Ill grant but they havent changed Nials in the slightest from there so lets not whine about Armageddon nefring Minbari fighters shall we?).
Oh and lets look at Nials vs Tbolts a second:
T-Bolts 3 per wing, +1 dogfight
Nial 1 per wing, +3 dogfight
hang on a second.... thats more or less even as far as I can see... Now Ill admit that if they take furies instead of TBolts the advantage shifts to EA but its not a collosal advantage)
Furthermore I dont hear all the EA players whining that the Mibari hopeless outlcass them at War and Battle level (which they do (well ok not crusade era but therye closer to Minbari in terms of how their ships are distributed)).
Coming back to the fighters the numbers advantage does favour the EA SLIGHTLY but it can be beaten. Oh and if you think youre going up against just fighters at that PL how about trying 5 Tishats? +4 dogfight each.....
As for complaining about afterburners... erm well theres two whole races that have them. Dilgar and EA. Thats it. And in the case of the EA they can use them once per game to go as fast as Minbari fighters go ANYWAY.....
It gets on my nerves more than a little when people complain that the Centauri are too weak just because a couple of their ships arent quite up to the rest of them but when the Minbari players start complaining just because they can no longer just wade into the enemy without worrying about little things like tactics and maneuvering, pray to the stealth dice gods and win they start complaining... What all those precisce SAP beams and AP Minibeams arent good enough?!?!
If you get a priortiy level game you dont think you can win at then simply retreat. Or do as much damage as you can then retreat. Please! Discussing tactics and weaknesses is one thing but can we please have less whining? Just because things arent hideously unfair in your favour doesnt make the Minbari rubish...
The Minbari are weak at patrol level and skirmish. So whats new? They ALWAYS been weak at that level. Dilgar are also very strong at Raid level. Again no change there. Armageddon really hasnt changed THAT much. Mibari ships cant rely on stealth as much sure but they are tougher than the tourney versions by contrast (it IS quite a downgrade if youd only used the SFoS variety before Ill grant but they havent changed Nials in the slightest from there so lets not whine about Armageddon nefring Minbari fighters shall we?).
Oh and lets look at Nials vs Tbolts a second:
T-Bolts 3 per wing, +1 dogfight
Nial 1 per wing, +3 dogfight
hang on a second.... thats more or less even as far as I can see... Now Ill admit that if they take furies instead of TBolts the advantage shifts to EA but its not a collosal advantage)
Furthermore I dont hear all the EA players whining that the Mibari hopeless outlcass them at War and Battle level (which they do (well ok not crusade era but therye closer to Minbari in terms of how their ships are distributed)).
Coming back to the fighters the numbers advantage does favour the EA SLIGHTLY but it can be beaten. Oh and if you think youre going up against just fighters at that PL how about trying 5 Tishats? +4 dogfight each.....
As for complaining about afterburners... erm well theres two whole races that have them. Dilgar and EA. Thats it. And in the case of the EA they can use them once per game to go as fast as Minbari fighters go ANYWAY.....
It gets on my nerves more than a little when people complain that the Centauri are too weak just because a couple of their ships arent quite up to the rest of them but when the Minbari players start complaining just because they can no longer just wade into the enemy without worrying about little things like tactics and maneuvering, pray to the stealth dice gods and win they start complaining... What all those precisce SAP beams and AP Minibeams arent good enough?!?!
If you get a priortiy level game you dont think you can win at then simply retreat. Or do as much damage as you can then retreat. Please! Discussing tactics and weaknesses is one thing but can we please have less whining? Just because things arent hideously unfair in your favour doesnt make the Minbari rubish...
the fighter problem is almost with everybodys except EA. with the starfury going up and having twinlinked weapons its good against both fighters and ships. the sentri is supposed to be a good dogfighter but the starfury equals it now and so you wont see sentris anymore just raziks. the thunderbolt should have its dodge lowered, its a fighter bomber after all with a hull 5 to boot.
Locutus9956 said:
Consider: the EA player has 3 chances to shoot at the Minbari. That's 3 chances to roll over stealth (with sensors likely and stealth at -1 already). He then has 3 fighters to every 1 in combat. This means he has a static +3 to dogfight for one turn. If he loses it (chances are he'll draw on average dice) he then has another turn on +2, then +1 and so on. The law of averages says that the EA player will win. Take standard furies and it becomes even more certain. It's more exaggerated when you consider that EA have Raid PL ships with 4 fighters (Nova, Explorer), whilst the Minbari have 1 flight per ship (if any).
Locutus9956
Mongoose
erm.... noooo I think your getting the dogfighting rules a little off there:
3 Tbolts vs 1 Nial:
Tbolt: dogfight rating +1, 2 assisting flights : +2, total dogfight score = +3
Nial: dogfight rating +3, total dogfight score = +3. Even.
If they lose a flight on turn 1 it then goes to a 1pt advantage to the Minbari then 2 pt etc.
I think what some people overlook is that each adtional flight in a dogfight is merely +1 NOT +whatever its dogfight rating is.
To directly answer the above post anyway:
1) When was the last time you EVER saw fighters aside from Vorlon ones actually FIRE at each other as opposed to dogfight in a game of Call to Arms?
2) See above, Im not sure exactly what your trying to say but the T-Bolts dogfight score for all three engaging one Nial flight only EQUALS it.
3) you dont get +3 for three flights engaged as only 2 of those are ADDITIONAL flights, the first one merely gets its dogfight rating that the other 2 assists add to:
3 T-Bolts have a rating of 3 (df1 + 2assists)
3 Starfuries have a rating of 4 (df2 + 2 assists)
1 Fury and 2 Tbolts have a rating of 4 (df2 + 2 assists)
1 Nial has a rating of 3 (df3 + no assists)
1 Tishat has a rating of 4 (df4 + no assists)
Now the advantage is STILL to the EA as simply put their superior numbers means that they can tie up all the nials with one flight each and then gang up on one at a time for a bigger bonus, and furthermore even if they go 3 on 1 in every fight they only need to get lucky once to take out that nial and have those fighters free to reinforce other dogfights whereas the Minbari have to win 3 times in each furball before they free up a nial to go kill something else. But its not nearly as harsh as some people have made out...
3 Tbolts vs 1 Nial:
Tbolt: dogfight rating +1, 2 assisting flights : +2, total dogfight score = +3
Nial: dogfight rating +3, total dogfight score = +3. Even.
If they lose a flight on turn 1 it then goes to a 1pt advantage to the Minbari then 2 pt etc.
I think what some people overlook is that each adtional flight in a dogfight is merely +1 NOT +whatever its dogfight rating is.
To directly answer the above post anyway:
1) When was the last time you EVER saw fighters aside from Vorlon ones actually FIRE at each other as opposed to dogfight in a game of Call to Arms?
2) See above, Im not sure exactly what your trying to say but the T-Bolts dogfight score for all three engaging one Nial flight only EQUALS it.
3) you dont get +3 for three flights engaged as only 2 of those are ADDITIONAL flights, the first one merely gets its dogfight rating that the other 2 assists add to:
3 T-Bolts have a rating of 3 (df1 + 2assists)
3 Starfuries have a rating of 4 (df2 + 2 assists)
1 Fury and 2 Tbolts have a rating of 4 (df2 + 2 assists)
1 Nial has a rating of 3 (df3 + no assists)
1 Tishat has a rating of 4 (df4 + no assists)
Now the advantage is STILL to the EA as simply put their superior numbers means that they can tie up all the nials with one flight each and then gang up on one at a time for a bigger bonus, and furthermore even if they go 3 on 1 in every fight they only need to get lucky once to take out that nial and have those fighters free to reinforce other dogfights whereas the Minbari have to win 3 times in each furball before they free up a nial to go kill something else. But its not nearly as harsh as some people have made out...
You just reiterated exactly what I said - the 3 on one means he has +3 to dogfight on turn 1. He then has +2 (assuming he loses turn one) for turn two. Assuming he loses turn 2 he's down to one on one, and is at a 2 point disadvantage (+1 vs +3).
My point is this: he can hold three rounds in a dogfight minimum. The minbari can hold only one. Dice being dice, I'd put my money on the EA.
And anyone who doesn't fire their fighters at each other given the chance is missing a trick - again, I was pointing out the advantage that the EA have in that situation. They have 3 lots of shooting, 3 chances to beat stealth (and this is stealth down to 2+!) and lots of AD to try and beat that dodge (even if only once!) - the best the Nial can do is shoot at one flight in the same situation, and it's not as if he has minibeams (which might be nice given that's what they are in the series...)
My point is this: he can hold three rounds in a dogfight minimum. The minbari can hold only one. Dice being dice, I'd put my money on the EA.
And anyone who doesn't fire their fighters at each other given the chance is missing a trick - again, I was pointing out the advantage that the EA have in that situation. They have 3 lots of shooting, 3 chances to beat stealth (and this is stealth down to 2+!) and lots of AD to try and beat that dodge (even if only once!) - the best the Nial can do is shoot at one flight in the same situation, and it's not as if he has minibeams (which might be nice given that's what they are in the series...)
Locutus9956
Mongoose
Ah right I see what you were getting at now (for some reason I read it as implying the EA had the a +3 advantage in the dogfight. Thouhgh going by averages the Nial should still win, though it would of course take it 3 turns to do so.
As for firing givent the chance, yes absolutely the EA should fire at the Nials, but bear in mind the Nial is FASTER than the T-Bolts and you cant shoot into a dogfight. If the Minbari player ever leaves a flight of Nials withing 4" of a T-Bolt and doesnt simply dogfight it then he needs his head examined
(inititives being what they are the Mibari will nearly always be moving their fighters second)
As for firing givent the chance, yes absolutely the EA should fire at the Nials, but bear in mind the Nial is FASTER than the T-Bolts and you cant shoot into a dogfight. If the Minbari player ever leaves a flight of Nials withing 4" of a T-Bolt and doesnt simply dogfight it then he needs his head examined
(inititives being what they are the Mibari will nearly always be moving their fighters second)
CheesyRobMan
Mongoose
"you cant shoot into a dogfight."
You can't? Where does it say this? :?
You can't? Where does it say this? :?
Sulfurdown
Mongoose
CheesyRobMan said:
pg 10 of Sky Full of Stars:
"Dogfighting flights may not be fired upon by either side for fear of hitting their own fighters. However, in multiplayer games, it is quite possible that two or more sides will be engaged in a dogfight and another force will be quite ready to fire into the melee if none of its own fighters are present."
Sulfurdown
Mongoose
Out of idle curiosity, why is it that the Razik which is supposed to be an older, outdated fighter becomes a better ship then the Sentri? To my mind the Razik should probably have around 1AD instead of 2 to make it a balancing decision. Or maybe raise the hull on the Sentri. /end random thought #2931.
I see a lot of folks claiming that stealth is down to 2+! That assumes everything has gone right for the EA.
The EA has put there fighters in a spot where the Minbari cannot reach them but they can reach the Minbari.
They won initiative and got to move last to put themselves in position.
They successfully made the the CQ check to AStF.
They beat the stealth (2.5 out of the much quoted 3 flights).
Hit with their AD (non-antifighter so dodgeable).
And then the dodge has to fail.
Dogfighting is much more reliable way for most people to kill fightes. And as long as you win initiative you will move after your opponent. Why is this important, because it means he will not be fighting at +3, then +2 then +1...he will fight three individual fights at +1 while all three of yours are at +3.
See through your stealth on a Nial, how did he get within one inch? You had initiative and can jump farther than he can, should not ever happen.
I agree with folks that for a patrol choice for use against ships it would be nice to have an advantage, but you are hardly at a disadvantage vs fighters of other races in a one on one match unless you assume you are losing initiative and started withing the enemy fighters jump range.
Even against ships you effectively have a dodge (stealth works vs anti-fighter) that is not available to other flights. It may not be a great score, but it is a chance.
I do love to talk about what a race needs (perhaps the a weaker fighter with more flights?) but before anyone takes you seriously you have to acknowledge what makes your race great. In the case of the Nial the speed, racial initiative bonus, and dogfight rating are very powerful. You also have 3 AD AP which for fighter armerment is great. AND you have a stealth system that give you two chances to live vs most fire.
Ripple
The EA has put there fighters in a spot where the Minbari cannot reach them but they can reach the Minbari.
They won initiative and got to move last to put themselves in position.
They successfully made the the CQ check to AStF.
They beat the stealth (2.5 out of the much quoted 3 flights).
Hit with their AD (non-antifighter so dodgeable).
And then the dodge has to fail.
Dogfighting is much more reliable way for most people to kill fightes. And as long as you win initiative you will move after your opponent. Why is this important, because it means he will not be fighting at +3, then +2 then +1...he will fight three individual fights at +1 while all three of yours are at +3.
See through your stealth on a Nial, how did he get within one inch? You had initiative and can jump farther than he can, should not ever happen.
I agree with folks that for a patrol choice for use against ships it would be nice to have an advantage, but you are hardly at a disadvantage vs fighters of other races in a one on one match unless you assume you are losing initiative and started withing the enemy fighters jump range.
Even against ships you effectively have a dodge (stealth works vs anti-fighter) that is not available to other flights. It may not be a great score, but it is a chance.
I do love to talk about what a race needs (perhaps the a weaker fighter with more flights?) but before anyone takes you seriously you have to acknowledge what makes your race great. In the case of the Nial the speed, racial initiative bonus, and dogfight rating are very powerful. You also have 3 AD AP which for fighter armerment is great. AND you have a stealth system that give you two chances to live vs most fire.
Ripple
Slightly Norse John
Mongoose
The Minbari are very good- not unbeatable. I was on the 'argh, they're too good, turn them down' bandwagon for a while, but I'm better now (better at blasting them into itty bitty bits, anyway).
The one thing I really want to see in the Minbari fleet lists is more variety.
t's very easy to remember what your ships' weapons' traits are. They're the same every fragging time...
The list is dominated by two weapons, neutron lasers and fusion cannon; there is one minor variation of each- improved neutron lasers and the occasional twin linked fusion cannon- and the rare Molecular Disruptors, on two small ships (one admittedly the mainstay of Minbari efforts at lower PL), the very rare Antimatter converter (seen much more often than used, given it's absurd range), and the freakishly rare Shock Cannon, seen only on one seldom- deployed design.
They are the least diverse of any of the major races. The EA and the Narn have alternatives coming out of their ears, by comparison. The Centauri lists are dominated by three weapon types, but there are a dozen actual, if rarer, and ten fluff- enabled potential alternatives (and I reckon movement away from the core three towards some of the alternatives would make a more interesting fleet, more fun to play both with and against. That's another debate- one I haven't heard much from, recently, come to think of it.)
Anybody got any ideas as to what was in use by the Minbari at the time of the last Shadow War? Not the current kit, surely.
The one thing I really want to see in the Minbari fleet lists is more variety.
t's very easy to remember what your ships' weapons' traits are. They're the same every fragging time...
The list is dominated by two weapons, neutron lasers and fusion cannon; there is one minor variation of each- improved neutron lasers and the occasional twin linked fusion cannon- and the rare Molecular Disruptors, on two small ships (one admittedly the mainstay of Minbari efforts at lower PL), the very rare Antimatter converter (seen much more often than used, given it's absurd range), and the freakishly rare Shock Cannon, seen only on one seldom- deployed design.
They are the least diverse of any of the major races. The EA and the Narn have alternatives coming out of their ears, by comparison. The Centauri lists are dominated by three weapon types, but there are a dozen actual, if rarer, and ten fluff- enabled potential alternatives (and I reckon movement away from the core three towards some of the alternatives would make a more interesting fleet, more fun to play both with and against. That's another debate- one I haven't heard much from, recently, come to think of it.)
Anybody got any ideas as to what was in use by the Minbari at the time of the last Shadow War? Not the current kit, surely.
Greg Smith
Mongoose
Slightly Norse John said:
We saw Tinashis on screen in 'War Without End'.
Just some math about the Nial vs 3 T-bolt :
even CQ, 2D6 rolled :
turn 1 : 0.41 Nial win 0.16 draw 0.41 T bolt win. Ignoring draw we go to a 0.5-0.5
If nial win this 0.5 is reduced by the further round :
turn 2 : 0.58 Nial 0.13 Draw 0.27 T bolt -> 0.68 - 0.31
turn 3 : 0.72 N 0.11 D 0.16 T -> 0.81 - 0.18
So Nial survive if he always win : 0.5*0.68*0.81 = 0.27 It's a 1 against 2 ratio
Against a ship it's 12 AD hull 5 against 3 DD stealth 4.
And it was stated somewhere on this forums that the nial weapon is a minibeam, but not powerfull enought to earn the trait.
Look like the nial is beaten. But Fighter is an EA strength anyway.
even CQ, 2D6 rolled :
turn 1 : 0.41 Nial win 0.16 draw 0.41 T bolt win. Ignoring draw we go to a 0.5-0.5
If nial win this 0.5 is reduced by the further round :
turn 2 : 0.58 Nial 0.13 Draw 0.27 T bolt -> 0.68 - 0.31
turn 3 : 0.72 N 0.11 D 0.16 T -> 0.81 - 0.18
So Nial survive if he always win : 0.5*0.68*0.81 = 0.27 It's a 1 against 2 ratio
Against a ship it's 12 AD hull 5 against 3 DD stealth 4.
And it was stated somewhere on this forums that the nial weapon is a minibeam, but not powerfull enought to earn the trait.
Look like the nial is beaten. But Fighter is an EA strength anyway.
Slightly Norse John
Mongoose
I remember that, it wasn't supposed to actually be a Tinashi, despite being the same CGI; it was a predecessor, something called a Tinash-Haza. I think.
It occurs to me, neutron cannon, neutron laser, how is it that the Shadows' chief opposition from the last Shadow War and their senior auxilliaries the Drakh in this one use a weapon that seems to have the same technological root? Is the Drakh weaponry actually based on the Minbari weaponry of a thousand years ago?
Unlikely; the stats are too good. Parallel technical evolution, maybe.
It occurs to me, neutron cannon, neutron laser, how is it that the Shadows' chief opposition from the last Shadow War and their senior auxilliaries the Drakh in this one use a weapon that seems to have the same technological root? Is the Drakh weaponry actually based on the Minbari weaponry of a thousand years ago?
Unlikely; the stats are too good. Parallel technical evolution, maybe.
