What did the Minbari ever do to mongoose?

[Burger]

You don't get many Minbari fighters to a point. There's a reason for that; they're the best in the galaxy. Asking for more of them is stretching the limits of the absurd.

The Tishat has a +4 dogfight score. Even as it stands if you take 1 of them you can go toe to toe with a wing of starfuries and have an even chance of winning!

You guys asked for this... out comes the stats :lol:

For 1 Tishat to win against one wing of Starfuries, you must win:
+4 vs +4 (+2 with 2 support): 50% chance of winning
+4 vs +3 (+2 with 1 support): 67% chance of winning
+4 vs +2 (+2 with no support): 81% chance of winning
Overall the Tishat has a 27.5% chance of winning.

Against a wing of Raziks you're just toast:
+4 vs +6 (+3 with 3 support): 19% chance of winning
+4 vs +5: 32% chance of winning
+4 vs +4: 50% chance of winning
+4 vs +3: 67% chance of winning
Overall the Tishat has a 2% chance of winning!

Some more stats without all the working out:
Nial vs. Raziks: 0.5% chance of winning
Nial vs. Sentris: 2% chance of winning
Nial vs. Kothas: 1.5% chance of winning
Nial vs. Tzymm: 27% chance of winning
Tishat vs. Tzymm: 50% chance of winning

 

[Black Omega]

busy day in the office today burger?

 

[Triggy]

Burger's stats back up why a couple of people (me included) think Tishats (and Nials) should be two per wing (and Flyers three per wing). It's the fact that even when even in a single round of a dogfight, if the Tishat wins it still has one or more rounds to fight but if the enemy wins then the battle is over. That and that Tishats have less firepower than the Nial so they'd better be good value for taking on enemy fighters as they aren't going to earn their position purely on taking on capital ships.

 

[Alexb83]

IMO even a Nial's going to have trouble engaging a cap ship, simply because unlike almost all other minbari weapons (I think that shock cannons on the Esharan and the Graviton Pulsars on the Torotha are the only exception) it will not ignore interceptors.

So, where other fighters might well serve to soak up interceptors, Nials are useless in this role, and interceptors well and truly hamstring them in anti-ship, along with the fact that on average you will have very few to shoot at the ship in the first instance.

 

[Burger]

unlike almost all other minbari weapons (I think that shock cannons on the Esharan and the Graviton Pulsars on the Torotha are the only exception) it will not ignore interceptors.

Most of the Tigara's weapons are interceptable too.

But yeah, to say a Nial is a good anti-ship fighter may be true when comparing 1 vs 1 with another race's fighter... but on a Patrol point basis, which is better... 1 Nial or 4 Sentri? 1 Nial or 3 Starfury? 1 Nial or 6 Delta V? 1 Nial or 6 Kotha? etc...

 

[Alexb83]

I can see why Mongoose would be reticent to give Nials minibeam (because in the very, very rare occasion that they actually shoot at other fighters or at Whitestars, they would lose their dodge). However, those occasions are so rare and the interceptors issue a bit more imperative, it might make sense to give it to them.

Perhaps I'm overblowing the situation - but a Nial would have very little chance of getting anything on a ship with hull 5 or 6 and interceptors.
I suppose they would help with Tigaras and the other rare non-beam Minbari, but then in those situations you've only got one or two flights at most to do the soaking up!

 

[Burger]

Giving them mini-beam would be too good, they'd be almost up there with Vorlon fighters. They would become snipers rather than dogfighters. I'm with Triggy: 2 Nials, 2 Tishats and 3 Flyers per wing. Oh and White Star Fighter are stupidly expensive too, they become Patrol level, 1 per wing.

 

[Alexb83]

Is the option in there to do straight swaps, Tishats for Nials? I forget... (attached craft, obviously)

 

[Sulfurdown]

Burger - Out of idle curiosity, have you run the same number sequence for the Starfuries, etc to see if they come out with the other 70% win chance? (I haven't taken the time to look into it yet)

 

[Ripple]

Really hate that math breakdown. It assumes the Nials lost initiative and are the ones getting swarmed. Figure it out in the more normal situation where the Nials are the ones choosing when and where to attack, or are flying in support of a capitol ship and are only engaged one on one.

When you are trying to figure stats try looking at the best case scenario for the object in question as well as the worst. This is a case of you are deliberately distorting the actual in game use of the flight to make it seem worse than it is.

In the razik example if he's taking raziks why did you not take Tishats to balance his. That would be the fair example where he gave up AD for dofight you do too. Given raziks do not have afterburner, you most certainly should be the one getting the drop on him.

You also fail to note that the Minbari ships have the best anti-fighter distribution in the game. Your fighters do not have to deal with his, as the moment his fighters engage your ship they are likely to die (provided you manage to not get skeletoned). So the Nial becomes an anti-ship fighter as good as the Frazi (better actually with stealth and speed and AP) in that you may find yourself with no opposition.

Remember all the comments on this being a game that is balanced on a 'Fleet' scale not individually per ship.

Ripple

 

[Burger]

So the Nial becomes an anti-ship fighter as good as the Frazi (better actually with stealth and speed and AP) in that you may find yourself with no opposition.

Okay, how does 1 FAP of Nials compare to 1 FAP of Frazi?
3AD AP, vs 12 AD.
Frazi are better.

Sure Nials have stealth, but thats only going to be 3+ because they are within 8". Big whoopee for 3+ stealth, thats going to save me a lot.

 

[Alexb83]

In the razik example if he's taking raziks why did you not take Tishats to balance his.

Ripple

Correction: he takes Raziks. You take: A (singular) Tishat.

The examples Burger gave are valid. Especially against Centauri where with a War level carrier, and assuming you have a Morshin, he matches your boosted Initiative. Regardless of who won the initiative, if he keeps his fighters together as they move, and you engage, you'll end up dogfighting with (at best) 2 of his to one of yours. He can hold you for a turn regardless of how well you do and move in more fighters on the next to wipe you out.

Anti fighter shoots last. It also cannot shoot into dogfights. The only boon you get is that, short of afterburners, minbari secondaries can shoot at his fighters before he can get close enough to attack your ships. But then he can dodge, with lots of flights. Suddenly your 8 AD can (at best) take out 1 of his 3-4 flights. Then you have to pray he doesn't cripple your ships before the minibeams get a chance to fire.

 

[Vertexx69]

Giving them mini-beam would be too good, they'd be almost up there with Vorlon fighters. They would become snipers rather than dogfighters. I'm with Triggy: 2 Nials, 2 Tishats and 3 Flyers per wing. Oh and White Star Fighter are stupidly expensive too, they become Patrol level, 1 per wing.

Then give the flyers mini beam, as they aren't dogfighters. and the vorlons still get precise on theres.

 

[Davesaint]

In the razik example if he's taking raziks why did you not take Tishats to balance his.

Ripple

Correction: he takes Raziks. You take: A (singular) Tishat.

The examples Burger gave are valid. Especially against Centauri where with a War level carrier, and assuming you have a Morshin, he matches your boosted Initiative. Regardless of who won the initiative, if he keeps his fighters together as they move, and you engage, you'll end up dogfighting with (at best) 2 of his to one of yours. He can hold you for a turn regardless of how well you do and move in more fighters on the next to wipe you out.

Anti fighter shoots last. It also cannot shoot into dogfights. The only boon you get is that, short of afterburners, minbari secondaries can shoot at his fighters before he can get close enough to attack your ships. But then he can dodge, with lots of flights. Suddenly your 8 AD can (at best) take out 1 of his 3-4 flights. Then you have to pray he doesn't cripple your ships before the minibeams get a chance to fire.

Correction - You are Minbari with +4 initiative, he is Centauri with a +3 initative. If you win initiative as Minbari, and you have positioned your fighters outside of range 12 from the enemy fighters, have the fanheads move their fighters first and you will only have to fight 1 fighter in a dogfight on the first turn, and likely no more than 2 on the second turn.


Dave

 

[Triggy]

Giving them mini-beam would be too good, they'd be almost up there with Vorlon fighters. They would become snipers rather than dogfighters. I'm with Triggy: 2 Nials, 2 Tishats and 3 Flyers per wing. Oh and White Star Fighter are stupidly expensive too, they become Patrol level, 1 per wing.

Yeah, the WS fighter is one I'd advocate doubling the number of too although I'd make it two for a Skirmish choice (partly to keep them unique at Skirmish level and more importantly to give the ISA a Skirmish choice to work with when looking at FAP breakdowns).

Like this people still wouldn't take fighter flights that often but at least they're viable (if a tad unpopular)

 

[lastbesthope]

Is the option in there to do straight swaps, Tishats for Nials? I forget... (attached craft, obviously)

YEs, Nials can be swapped for Tishats or Breaching pods. Flyers you are stuck with though.

LBH

 

[Davesaint]

Is the option in there to do straight swaps, Tishats for Nials? I forget... (attached craft, obviously)

YEs, Nials can be swapped for Tishats or Breaching pods. Flyers you are stuck with though.

LBH

Yeah you are stuck with flyers who have a 4+ Dodge, but at least they are steath 5 and have 3AD AP guns.


Dave

 

[Alexb83]

In the razik example if he's taking raziks why did you not take Tishats to balance his.

Ripple

Correction: he takes Raziks. You take: A (singular) Tishat.

The examples Burger gave are valid. Especially against Centauri where with a War level carrier, and assuming you have a Morshin, he matches your boosted Initiative. Regardless of who won the initiative, if he keeps his fighters together as they move, and you engage, you'll end up dogfighting with (at best) 2 of his to one of yours. He can hold you for a turn regardless of how well you do and move in more fighters on the next to wipe you out.

Anti fighter shoots last. It also cannot shoot into dogfights. The only boon you get is that, short of afterburners, minbari secondaries can shoot at his fighters before he can get close enough to attack your ships. But then he can dodge, with lots of flights. Suddenly your 8 AD can (at best) take out 1 of his 3-4 flights. Then you have to pray he doesn't cripple your ships before the minibeams get a chance to fire.

Correction - You are Minbari with +4 initiative, he is Centauri with a +3 initative. If you win initiative as Minbari, and you have positioned your fighters outside of range 12 from the enemy fighters, have the fanheads move their fighters first and you will only have to fight 1 fighter in a dogfight on the first turn, and likely no more than 2 on the second turn.


Dave

The specific example I was giving above was for Minbari + Morshin vs. Centauri + Balvarix. Even initiative in that case. Add that to the fact that he can take 4 scouts for your 1, IIRC.
And I'd highlight the /if/ in your sentence. It's no guarantee. For example, I managed to fail initiative with +5 vs. Dilgar today, even if it was only once in the game. That's time enough for him to get his fighters in. What can you do?

 

[katadder]

well only had one fighter so you know

 

[Silvereye]

Yeah you are stuck with flyers who have a 4+ Dodge, but at least they are steath 5 and have 3AD AP guns.

That Stealth 5 usually ment they were better for anti-ship work than Nials (as they carry the same weaponry). It would've been nice to be able to swap out some Nials for them on occaision.