What did the Minbari ever do to mongoose?

[Tzarevitch]

I would tend to question the 'superior firepower' tag. Centauri outgun them in terms of both AD and range comparing Battle Lasers to Neutron Lasers up to Battle PL. Even at battle PL, the Primus gets more AD at the same range as the Tinashi. Then you jump up to war, and the Octurion outranges the Sharlin with the same AD.
Yes, precise sets them apart, but fewer AD = fewer chances to hit in the first instance. Shorter range = more chances for them to shoot at you.

Minbari strength in terms of firepower seems to be really focused around their secondary armament (18" range - except on Torotha) Fusion cannons are very, very nice.

Yes but at those ranges due to the stealth, unless the centauri has help, he can't fire AT ALL most of the time. When you factor the stealth in the Minbari far outguns the centauri.

Tzarevitch

Just want to make sure people are getting this one right so a little comment here: A failed stealth roll does NOT stop you firing, it means you MISS. This is obviously a VERY important distinction for slow loading weapons...

The stealth roll is NOT to lock onto the target, due to the stealth system you CANT lock on. Ever. The stealth roll as I see it represents manually attempting to enter a firing solution for the ship where you you think it is. If you fail the roll your crew has got it a bit wrong and you've missed as a result. Ships with higher stealth ratings are harder to detect at all even passively hence its harder to target them in this manner (thats how I see it anyway, frankly the idea of a stealth system that only stops you being targeted 50% of the time in most cases is just stupid)

Actually it is not that stupid. I think the stupid part is the fact that Minbari live or die on 1d6. Any current warship worthy of the name carries more than one targeting system. Why in the far future ships only carry 1 expecially with Minbari around baffles me.

If they allowed the d6 roll per targeting system (i.e per weapon system) on the ship then did away with the range modifiers and aux craft modifiers to reduce the difficulty. "Stealth" then behaves similar to ablative armor, interceptors and the GEG in being a predictable damage reducer for the Minbari instead of the all or nothing it is now.

Also, calling the Minbari system "Stealth" is inaccurate from the beginning. It is a powerful active jamming system that the Minbari are using not a passive "stealth" system. As I recall from the show they state this. In either case however, both active and passive systems can cause a hit or miss effect that varies from turn to turn and here's how.

Sensors of various types work by firing some sort of energy in a direction and reading the return energy. Jammers fire energy back from the targeted ship in an attempt to disrupt the return energy signature to make accurate readings difficult and introduce big-time error into a targeting solution. Sometimes they jam completely, sometimes partially, sometimes the targeting platform can "burn through" the jamming completely. A lot of variables go into how well it works.

If there is a jammer in the area you KNOW he is there. You just can't get a high level of targeting certainty from your sensors, so the computer or operator makes an educated guess as to which range is correct or it decides the targeting solution is so poor it isn't worth shooting at all. It is like trying to target an extremely blurry image of a fast moving object. This is reflected in game as a miss chance.

Stealth works by reducing (ideally eliminating) the return energy to the sensor platform. Usually stealth systems absorb it or bend it away in a different direction. Stealth is somewhat better than jammers because it is a passive system. If it works ideally, you never see him to even take a shot.

Stealth can be partially effective too. In that case case the return energy can be so low as to cause the targeting computer to mistake a sharlin for a much smaller tinashi or something as small as a Nial. In this case, firing at the "Sharlin" that is really a Tinashi can easily result in a hit or miss due to size difference, turn difference or speed difference.

There are plenty of things I think are dumb about the way "Stealth" works in the game, but the hit/miss nature of it is not one of them. It is a decent reflection of how those types of systems work. The poblem is the fact that it only uses 1 die.

Tzarevitch

 

[JayRaider]

I think the current stealth rules are good.
Thw Minbari were Way over-powered previously. So much so, that people didn't want to play them.
There a great fleet to play now!

 

[Vertexx69]

My minbari fleet found a crashed league ship on a dead world to add to my fleet.

Since I add it to my roster, can I now buy that type of ship with my RR points?

And if so, are the new league ships piloted by minbari or by the race of the ship like mercanaries.

Obviously they would roll on the appropriate league refit chart with XP dice, but would I also roll on the appropriate league duty chart as well?

Do they get the racial bonuses of that league race?

 

[Iain McGhee]

You can't get any more (unless you roll up another crashed ship on the table that is).

It's crewed by it's native race and I'd presume that any crew replacements are from it's own race too. Same goes for replacing fighters etc. Just treat it as if it is still part of it's own fleet.

It doesn't specifically say it, but I'd treat it as if it was part of a mixed League fleet as far as working out which racial traits the ship could still use.

 

[Vertexx69]

would I gain the racial traits of the race of the crashed ship like pacifist if I took an Abbai ship or conglomerate backing if I took a Vree ship since it is crewed by that race?

 

[Wulf Corbett]

would I gain the racial traits of the race of the crashed ship like pacifist if I took an Abbai ship or conglomerate backing if I took a Vree ship since it is crewed by that race?

SFoS lists the traits that remain usable in a mixed League fleet - the same traits would be applicable to a League ship in this case. And neither of your examples are 8)

Wulf

 

[Locutus9956]

On a fairly unrelated note incidentally and as a direct answer to the original question:

Mongoose is a publishing company run by humans (well as far as I know anyway....)

And the Minbari did sort of try and exterminate the species.....

So THAT is what the Minbari ever did to Mongoose if you really must ask

 

[Vertexx69]

don't supose you woulds mind listing them since my SFoS is still in transit? and by that i just mean the names of the traits...wouldn't want to get anyone in trouble by posting rules descriptions ;p

 

[Alexb83]

On a fairly unrelated note incidentally and as a direct answer to the original question:

Mongoose is a publishing company run by humans (well as far as I know anyway....)

And the Minbari did sort of try and exterminate the species.....

So THAT is what the Minbari ever did to Mongoose if you really must ask

Well, in a roundabout way then, didn't Mongoose murder the Minbari leader Dukhat, and shouldn't they be careful not to miff the Minbari off again - lest the little blue fishy models of doom fly off the table, and Neutron Laser their ears off?

 

[captainsmirk]

Well I still think that a misunderstanding which is partially your own fault which results in the death of your great leader (who himself actually tried to stop you making the mistake in the first place), whilst obviously somewhat upsetting and requiring some form of retribution is hardly cause for the attempted genocide of an entire species...

IMHO nothing justifies the attempted genocide of an entire species (except perhaps them being the instigator of the successful genocide of an entire species, and even then only because we could be next...)

Nick

 

[Vertexx69]

Mongoose: noun, Small mamilian rodent. A larger cousin of the ferret or mink.

no we did not attempt the genocide of the mongoose ;p

P.S.

And we didn't attempt genocide. We just needed to teach them youngens a lesson about respectin your elders out in the woodshed.

 

[Wulf Corbett]

IMHO nothing justifies the attempted genocide of an entire species

You've never been on the sle of Skye during Midge season... :shock: :evil: :twisted:

Wulf

 

[Vertexx69]

Then how about giving me 3 flgihts of Tishats in a patrol so i can at least be competitive in dogfighting?

 

[Slightly Norse John]

LARP Rule/Commandment no. 2; "Thou shalt not take the piss.".

The Tishat is the best fighter interceptor in the game- quite a few people already consider it far too effective at it's job. Wanting to triple your numbers of them is a clear violation of Rule 2. No.

 

[Vertexx69]

LARP Rule/Commandment no. 2; "Thou shalt not take the piss.".

The Tishat is the best fighter interceptor in the game- quite a few people already consider it far too effective at it's job. Wanting to triple your numbers of them is a clear violation of Rule 2. No.

But each 1 can still only hold up to 3 fighters in a dogfight, and in a campaign you arent just choosing what you want for each battle.

And if your 5 fighters are scared of 1 tishat you are really lame...all you need to do is fire 10 dice at it from outside of dogfight range...only 1 roll needs to beat its whopping hull 3...silly rabbit ''

 

[Slightly Norse John]

You don't get many Minbari fighters to a point. There's a reason for that; they're the best in the galaxy. Asking for more of them is stretching the limits of the absurd.

Do you understand how Dodge and Stealth work? You certainly don't sound as if you understand how to play to the Minbari's strengths. Your grasp of the mechanics and the balance of the game is, to say the least, not that of many people who have replied to you so far.

Play it out, and see what happens.
You will find;
1) it requires a death- wish on the part of the minbari to be in that position.
2) it's much less easy to score a long range kill on a fighter flight than you think.

 

[LaranosTZ]

Now now, no need to be dismissive. I can see how folks are 'unhappy' with the percieved changes to their favorite fleet. Of course, whereas before all minbari games kinda lived or died on the D6, and most minbari admirals were happy with their uber fleet, it kinda hurts ya right in the tender spots when someone makes your fleet vulnerable again.

Does this change mean that the minbari are now more vulnerable then any other fleet? I don't really think so. They went from a fleet where you could take two or three 'core' ships and roll most opponents to a fleet where you have to be much choosier about which ships you take, and you have to pay much more attention to your own, as well as your opponent's tactics.

As to minbari fighters, am I upset that you get a lot less of them then any other fleet, especially when you buy them seperately? Again, not at all, minbari fighters are the best out there, but in most engagements with the minbari that you see, there are no 'independant' flights out there, they are all launched from sharlins and supporting ships.

I think it's been said before, the Minbari are a 'top heavy' fleet, they believe in the superiority of their capital ships, and therefore that's primarily what they use.

I've also said it before. If you want fighters, take a bloody morshin. It is a battle level ship with 2 battle points worth of fighters in it. So you're getting 2 battle points worth of fighters, a ship that's at least worth a raid, which also ups your initiative and makes your fighters more effective. Where's the problem?

 

[Vertexx69]

You don't get many Minbari fighters to a point. There's a reason for that; they're the best in the galaxy. Asking for more of them is stretching the limits of the absurd.

Do you understand how Dodge and Stealth work? You certainly don't sound as if you understand how to play to the Minbari's strengths. Your grasp of the mechanics and the balance of the game is, to say the least, not that of many people who have replied to you so far.

Play it out, and see what happens.
You will find;
1) it requires a death- wish on the part of the minbari to be in that position.
2) it's much less easy to score a long range kill on a fighter flight than you think.

Try reading a bit back into this thread (which I made just so I can rant) where I say that I just started playing.

Then you should find out that Im playing in a Battle 10 campaign with 13 other people. and when almost every other race gets a handful of patrol level ships that can gain XP dice and then gets high numbers of fighters as well, having my main fighter patrol reduced from a paltry 2 (already lowest in the game) to 1 and no patrol level ships makes gaining XP dice even harder.

So if my Nial is now effectively a patrol level ship(1 per FAP) that counts as a fighter, then it should gain XP dice too.

P.S. I don't give a flying patooty about EA crusade era, play a different time with your 40 models to my 10 ya whiner-baby ;p

 

[Vertexx69]

I think it's been said before, the Minbari are a 'top heavy' fleet, they believe in the superiority of their capital ships, and therefore that's primarily what they use.

Then the Minbari should have an ability to raise their FAP by 1 just like the dilgar can lower the opponents by 1. call it Zealotry or something like that.

And thinking the minbari wouldn't learn any new tactics after fighting for and against the EA for 10 years (or the 1000 since the first shadow war) is just not using common sense. Cause we all know the way you beat shadows is with swarms of small ships.

 

[Locutus9956]

Yes but Tinashi War Frigates ARE 'swarms of small ships' when compared to the shadows!

And in ITB the Minbari tactic of choice seems to be 'swarms of Sharlins'.

Incidentally the Minbari WERE attemtping Genocide in the EM War. Delenn even said as such despite Morann's protestations.

As for the three Tishats I hate to say it but I think SNJ's second rule is most definitely correct in this instance.

The Tishat has a +4 dogfight score. Even as it stands if you take 1 of them you can go toe to toe with a wing of starfuries and have an even chance of winning! Giving Minbari 2 per wing might be a small improvement but 3 would just be rediculous. It wouldnt give you a 'small chance' in dogfighting, it would all but guarentee victory!

Consider that EA and Centauri get 3 fighters per wing with HALF the dogfight score, no stealth and generally speaking weaker weaponry (with the exception of T-Bolts that Nials or Tishats would eat for breakfast in equal numbers!)