Vilani Genetics

aspqrz

Mongoose
Pure Vilani, having been separated from baseline human stock 300,000 years or so ago, there are obviously going to be some considerable differences between them and standard Humans ... some things for your consideration ...

* Lactose intolerance. The vast majority of Vilani are likely to be lactose intolerant. That is, they are likely to be unable to process fresh dairy products and suffer considerable unpleasant symptoms if they try. Historically, lactose tolerance seems to have developed fairly recently on Terra, perhaps only 4500 years ago ... and is tied (regardless of the theory of its origin you believe) to the development of human stock raising and, probably, a single point mutation that spread widely thereafter.

Since the Vilani seem to have been dumped by Grandfather on a planet which had little in the way of suitable food for them (cf. the development and importance of the Shulgili class), we can reasonably assume that there were no terran milk producing animals ... and, therefore, no reason to develop (or gain an advantage from the development of by random mutation) a lactose tolerance strain of Vilani.

Also note that, since agriculture only developed 10-12000 years ago on Terra, and Stock raising of milk producing animals therefore postdates this, it means that the mutation must be relatively uncommon for it to have taked 5-7000 years to express itself ... making it unlikely that PSV (Pure Strain Vilani) will have developed it in the the period since their contacts with Terran humans may have resulted in the introduction of terran milk producing animals to their worlds.

Also note that the above comments apply to PS Zhodani and PS minor human races scattered by Grandfather and not provided with terran milk producing animals as part of their biological inheritance on their planet of origin.

* Blue Eyes. While the Vilani will likely know of blue eyes (it is relatively common for babies to be born with blue eyes and it may take, in some cases, up to three years after birth for them to produce enough melanin to change to their baseline colour) it is unlikely that they will have adults with blue eyes as all modern blue eyed people seem to have arisen from a single mutation occurring in the Black Sea or Middle Eastern region c. 6-10000 years ago.

Likewise, the prevalence of Grey and Green eyes is probably related to the development of Blue eyes, and is unlikely to exist in Vilani. Hazel and Amber eyes are also unlikely for similar reasons.

The vast majority (c. 99.99999% or more) of Vilani are likely to be Brown eyed.

Since, historically, there is some linguistic evidence to suggest that Terrans initially associated blue eyed individuals with childlike characters, the Vilani may have had similar ideas about the first blue eyed terrans they encountered ...

* Blond(e) Hair: Again, this seems to have been the result of a single pointg mutation around 10-11000 years ago in NW Europe, probably in N Germany or Denmark. Scientists have estimated that the spread of blonde hair through human societies through pure random chance would take c. 850,000 years ... which means that, on Terra, at least, there must have been some evolutionary (including social) advantage in having Blonde hair for it to have become so widespread so fast (no one really understands why).

Redheads are also the result of mutation, but may not have been positively selected as much as negatively selected (there is some argument about how ancient the mutation is in humans ... it does occur in Neanderthals, but that is the result of a different genetic change than the one that causes it in humans, so do not become confused) ... if it is positively selected, it may have something to do with enhancing Vitamin production in high latitudes where there is less sunlight (and the sunlight is less strong) year round, giving an evolutionary advantage; if it is negatively selected, it may have something to do with it causing skin cancer and other problems in equatorial or high sunlight/high strength sunlight climes.

Vilani are almost certainly overwhelming Black or Brown (maybe one or the other) and even Auburn hair is likely to be rare. This almost certainly applies to the Zhodani and other minor human races.

* Blood Types: Baseline humans have four blood types ... A, B, AB and O. The most commonly accepted theory is that O is the baseline blood type for all humans and that the others are mutations from that.

A type seems to have developed around 20,000 years ago in Western Europe, probably around the time that proto-agriculture was developing.

B type seems to have developed around 10,000 years ago in Asia and Japan. There is no firm theory as to why.

AB developed around 1500 years ago when communications and trade between Europe and Asia became common enough for enough people of the two blood types to encounter and reproduce to make further mutations likely.

It is likely, therefore, that Vilani have Type O Blood, and, like modern Terran humans, the majority of their population have that blood typo. Since there seems to be no specific reason why mutations would not be possible, it is likely that, as with baseline humans, there are *other* Vilani blood types ... but it is also likely that these are *different* to types A, B and AB that are the ones found in baseline humans.

The same developments are likely in Zhodani and other minor human races.

Which makes Blood transfusions ... tricky.

So, for a start, your typical Vilani (or non Terran human) is Brown (or Black) haired, has brown eyes, is lactose intolerant and has Type O Blood

:shock:

There are other likely differences, but these are the biggies.

Phil
 
IIRC in the DGP Vargr and Vilani book, the Vilani were described has having golden or violet eyes as well as the normal colours.

However, the big thing that blows away the OTU view is that Homo Sapiens wasn't actually present as a distinct species on Earth 300,000 years ago (the latest that the Ancients were around). Any visitors at the time would have found Homo Erectus and possibly Homo Neanderthalis, but Homo Sapiens didn't show up as a separate species til about 250,000 years ago. At best they'd most likely find an intermediate phase between Homo Erectus and Sapiens. Or possibly there'd be Homo Rhodesiensis ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_sapiens_rhodesiensis ), which was around 300,000 years ago too. Take a look here for more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution - it's all rather confusing and intertwined, but either way Homo Sapiens seems newer than 300,000 years ago.

So any hominids that the Ancients would have picked up at the time would have most likely have been Homo Erectus. Which means that the Vilani (and Zhodani, and any other human offshoot race) should actually be very different to Terran homo sapiens. Even 300,000 years is enough for homo sapiens to evolve significantly on Earth, never mind the more pressing needs of adapting to another planet.
 
I'm not sure why you would conclude that Vilani would retain ancestral alleles when the human population on earth clearly experienced enough mutation and genetic drift for alleles encoding many, many traits like blue eyes or blonde hair or freckles or what have you to become fixed. There's no reason why the Vilani wouldn't have their own suite of unique alleles, especially given that they are highly likely to have been exposed to far more ionizing radiation in their transit to their new homeworld than their compatriots left behind. Indeed, given that eye colour is largely a function of melanin content and iris structure, it's not at all improbable that any variant eye colors they might have would cover basically the same range as those of the Solomani.

I think the traits you mentioned, while probably pretty noticable, are not going to be as physiologically significant as, for instance, the completely altered immune complement that a Vilani would have versus a Solomani. Another example might be the bone structure of the Vilani, which might be expected to be significantly more dense, particularly the trabecular bone, in order to cope with Vland's somewhat higher gravity (if I'm reading the UWP correctly..)
 
EDG said:
However, the big thing that blows away the OTU view is that Homo Sapiens wasn't actually present as a distinct species on Earth 300,000 years ago (the latest that the Ancients were around).

Wouldn't that suggest revising the date of "latest the Ancients were around" rather than revising everything else?
 
Who's to say that one of the anchients didn't take an earlier form of mankind and induce the butterfly effect that would eventualy produce the current version of mankind on all the worlds that they exist on.

Of course it is likely then that they left sone unaltered stock somewhere just in case, but as they rarely made small mistakes they may have not. It is possible that homo erectus could be encountered in an unaltered or significantly more altered form somewhere the scouts havn't been yet. (likely corward if the center of Ancient activity is in the Spinward Marches.)
 
dayriff said:
Wouldn't that suggest revising the date of "latest the Ancients were around" rather than revising everything else?

Sure, but there's still the fact that all these human races are remarkably similar despite spending several hundred thousand years in sometimes massively different environments. Whether it's 300k or 200k probably won't make an awful lot of difference.
 
subunit said:
There's no reason why the Vilani wouldn't have their own suite of unique alleles

Indeed, there isn't. I was only looking at the obvious differences between modern baseline humans and Vilani, not the other way around :wink:

And, of course, for 300,000 years they have developed (mutated) to deal with the conditions on Vland.

Not only can we assume that they almost certainly lactose intolerant, but we can reasonably assume that they are able to digest or partially digest items that baseline humans couldn't even come at ... the existence of Shulgili shows that processing of vlandish foods was necessary to be even vaguely edible, but that was a late stage development even on Vland ... cotemporal with the development of something resembling civilisation ... before then they had to be more able to deal with unprocessed (or not extensively processed) local biologicals in ways that no baseline human could.

So, while Vilani will get sick eating terran originated dairy products (no chocolate for the poor Vilani, in all likelihood), even extensively processed vilani originating foods will likely be as unpleasant digestively for baseline humans.

Phil
 
EDG said:
However, the big thing that blows away the OTU view is that Homo Sapiens wasn't actually present as a distinct species on Earth 300,000 years ago (the latest that the Ancients were around). Any visitors at the time would have found Homo Erectus and possibly Homo Neanderthalis, but Homo Sapiens didn't show up as a separate species til about 250,000 years ago.

Not necessarily. The latest scientific theory is that the ancestors of modern humans diverged from Homo Neanderthalis (or what became Homo Neanderthalis) around 500,000 years ago.

Homo sapiens idaltu seems to possibly be the only close relative we have (c. 110,000 years ago, extinct), but the evidence for its relationship to (and even for its existence) is, like that for Rhodesian man, extremely scant ... and the theory that the progression is H Neanderthalensis - H. Rhodensis - H Sapiens Idaltu - H Sapiens is, to say the least, regarded as tenuous at best.

So, given that all this theorising is in a state of flux, there is no particular reason to assume that the morphological differences are necessarily indicative of such gross genetic differences as to make H. Sapiens Vlandensis and H. Sapiens Zhodensis different species ... or, indeed, so different that cross-breeding is impossible, or only possible with sterile offspring.

I can remember reading in the late 60's, at High School, that H. Sapiens had only been around for 50,000 years ... so these estimates do change ... and need not be taken as absolute gospel since they are still subject to scientific disagreement and likely revision as new evidence is discovered.

Or, to put it another way ... there's plenty of wriggle room left!

Phil
 
As far as Traveller goes, the 300,000 year statement is an approximation as well, though apparently a very close one.

What would be more important to the setting in play is a statement regarding interfertility of the ~49 known branches of Humaniti. There have been some published statements in (now suspect) sources (*cough*DGP*cough*) and I think Marc has posted (back when he did that) to the effect that most of the branches of Humaniti are interfertile, but that exceptions exist. IIRC, the Suerrat and Geonee are on the list of non-interfertile HRs, but its been a while...
 
aspqrz said:
Or, to put it another way ... there's plenty of wriggle room left!

Well, a generation ("the average time between a mother's first offspring and her daughter's first offspring" according to wikipedia ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation , which agrees with various other sources I found). is about 25-30 years long for us humans.

So 300,000 years is 10,000 to 12,000 generations - that's more than enough generational cycles for significant drift to have occurred from the baseline. Even on Earth homo sapiens changed a lot since it first appeared - so factor in the stressors of dealing with a new environment and you'd probably get even more divergence (if not more rapid evolution as the unfavourable genes get whittled out more quickly). And remember, humans dumped on alien worlds won't know what's dangerous or poisonous in the local fauna and flora, and any ancestral knowledge is worth diddly-squat in such environments - and that's disregarding the threat of alien diseases that are compatible with humanity. Not to mention having to survive having the crap bombed out of them when the Ancients had their Final War. The races of humaniti seen in the modern OTU would be the descendants of the lucky ones who survived all of that - which implies there would have had to be a lot more attempts at human seeding that failed catastrophically and totally.

In short, one could perhaps imagine the Ancients doing some serious hand-holding while they were around to at least make sure the initial transplanted human stock survived long enough to know how to survive in their new environments. But after that, you've got at least 10,000 generations of unguided, chaotic evolutionary drift - so the Vilani (and any other Terran offshoot) would have to be at least as different from modern homo sapiens as we are to ancient homo sapiens, and in very different ways too. Maybe they will be lactose-intolerant, but that's probably a minor difference compared to everything else.

One thing that bugs me is the lack of skin colour variation described for other human offshoots. Vilani and Zhos have always been portrayed as white caucasian types - who's to say that they wouldn't be black-skinned, or olive-skinned, or brown-skinned, or any other colour for that matter? Why wouldn't they have the same regional variations across their planet as we have on ours? All our skin colour variations evolved over the time since we left Africa a couple of hundred thousand years ago, so the Vilani and Zhos and other races should have had more than enough time to evolve their own skin colours (again probably based on melanin and climate). This makes for an interesting read on the subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_skin_color . Same goes for hair - there's no reason why they'd stick with any particular hair colour (or type) over all that time either. Generational drift will change things over time.

All of which can be used to make them even more alien than they actually are (and currently, none of the human offshoots are very different from us at all).
 
EDG said:
aspqrz said:
Or, to put it another way ... there's plenty of wriggle room left!

Well, a generation ("the average time between a mother's first offspring and her daughter's first offspring" according to wikipedia ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation , which agrees with various other sources I found). is about 25-30 years long for us humans.

Just a note, generations for non-technological man (as in before fire and flint axes technology) is much shorter. more like 12-15 years.
 
Its probably important to remember that Anatomically modern humans and archaic humans (non Neander) are not significantly different from modern humans. The hair skin and eyes stuff, even the blood type is visually distinctive, but really trivial. Honestly, modern humns are remarkably homogenous....especially the case in non-african populations. Remember - the genetics of every modern populations is inherent in Baseline african populations.

Probably, the main divergence would be due to two sources: the original intent of the Ancients in sampling, and any survival bottlenecks that the transplantees experience after the collapse or the ancients. A small survivor population acts to concentrate rare traits, and homogenize common ones -and eliminate bad ones.

For instance, north American timberwoves have apparently passed thru such a population bottleneck -IIRC, the study crossed direct sibs for multiple generations and expressed no harmful recessives. They are really,really homogenous with few or no harmful recessives.

In which case, it is quite possible that the extrastellar populations have way less variance than modern populations -even the inbred ones after this length of time.
 
EDG said:
Same goes for hair - there's no reason why they'd stick with any particular hair colour (or type) over all that time either. Generational drift will change things over time.

As I believe I mentioned, geneticists (scientists, anyway) did some calculations as to how long it would have taken for the single point (probably in a single person) mutation that created blonde hair in adults to make blonde hair as common as it is today, c. 11000 after the event, if it was not specifically survival promoting ... and they estimated 650,000 years.

Their explanation for why it became so common so quickly against the seeming odds? That there must have been a cultural preference right from the beginning that made it attractive ... so blondes evidently had more fun even 11000 years ago.

I could speculate that, perhaps, since it was, like blue eyes, associated with babies and, since there seems to be a hardwired response to safeguarding the young inbuilt in human beings, that this may have actually made it more likely for blondes to be safeguarded and, in women, where childlike features are morphologically more evident, make them more attractive as potential mothers and thus be the reason behind the 60 fold increase in speed of spread ... but, of course, I freely admit that I Am Not A Scientist 8)

The point I was making was that the mutation needed for blonde hair to exist at all amongst adults seems to have occurred exactly once in the possibly 500,000 (and certainly 250,000) years since something resembling H Sap Sap has existed ... so the likelihood of it occurring on Vland is ... low ...

Other hair colouring, such as Red hair, seems related to the development of Blonde hair temporally and geographically, and also seems to have occurred once in the established timeframe.

That is, these are rare -- and it would therefore not be unlikely to assume that they simply never occurred within the ranks of H Sap Zho or H Sap Vilani ...

Are other colour variations possible? Auburn, possibly. White, from something like albinism. Grey, possibly. Exotic ones like Green or Blue? Unlikely.

So while, yes, it is theoretically possible that non baseline humans would develop the same mutation, its rarity makes it ... unlikely.

Skin colouring, however, as you suggest, is an inexplicable assumption ... there's no way that they are likely to be WASPs ... it will very much depend on the planet, how close to the sun it is, and what latitudes the specific sub-branch of HSZ and HSV lived on it at.

Phil
 
EDG said:
dayriff said:
Wouldn't that suggest revising the date of "latest the Ancients were around" rather than revising everything else?

Sure, but there's still the fact that all these human races are remarkably similar despite spending several hundred thousand years in sometimes massively different environments. Whether it's 300k or 200k probably won't make an awful lot of difference.

Doesn't that place it slap bang in the middle of the point that you get that massive hominid numbers restriction in Africa from which Homo Sapiens then exploded?

If you want a scifi connection with the Ancients fiddling - isn;t that just about perfect timing?
 
aspqrz said:
The point I was making was that the mutation needed for blonde hair to exist at all amongst adults seems to have occurred exactly once in the possibly 500,000 (and certainly 250,000) years since something resembling H Sap Sap has existed ... so the likelihood of it occurring on Vland is ... low ...

I don't think that's a valid assumption to make at all. If the Ancients took a small pool of people from Earth (enough to make a viable breeding population anyway), who's to say that one or two of those people didn't have the mutation (or the potential for it) already? Or that they didn't put several breeding groups on each planet, to encourage environmental variability? Or that the environments on Vland or the Zho world wouldn't have encouraged it? I don't think there's any basis whatsoever to make the assumptions that the same things that happened on earth would happen in another alien environment, or would be as rare or common as they are here. All bets are out of the window when you change to an alien environment - Terran cavemen didn't have to adapt to biologically incompatible flora, or the aftermath of a cataclysmic war, or the shock of being moved to an alien world. The Vilani also had to adapt to a brighter star, and the Zhos to a dimmer one, which would also have affected their evolution somewhat.

And also, the Ancients may have made other tweaks that aren't so obvious. The longer Vilani lifespan for example won't be something that evolved naturally.
 
EDG said:
And also, the Ancients may have made other tweaks that aren't so obvious. .

I just suddenly had the concept of the Ancients putting GFP into Vilani progenitors so they could track their genetic constructs and the idea of having every Vilani glow under UV :)
 
aspqrz said:
The point I was making was that the mutation needed for blonde hair to exist at all amongst adults seems to have occurred exactly once in the possibly 500,000 (and certainly 250,000) years since something resembling H Sap Sap has existed ... so the likelihood of it occurring on Vland is ... low ...

EDG said:
I don't think that's a valid assumption to make at all.

Well, statistically speaking, I wouldn't bet on your assumption ... and I would on mine ... that's why, quite deliberately, I stated "so the likelihood of it occurring on Vland is ... low ... " :shock:

When I argue I choose (or at least try to) my words very carefully, and this is a case in point 8)

The numbers are with me, and against you.

Which is not to say that it's impossible ... merely extremely improbable :wink:

Phil
 
EDG said:
... The Vilani also had to adapt to a brighter star, and the Zhos to a dimmer one, which would also have affected their evolution somewhat. ... The longer Vilani lifespan for example won't be something that evolved naturally.
Maybe the longer life span came from the need or a genetic tweak to adapt the Vilani to a brighter star. With the increased UV, the Vilani would have to have better cell regeneration than Terran humans. With better cell regeneration could come a longer life span.
 
Valarian said:
EDG said:
... The Vilani also had to adapt to a brighter star, and the Zhos to a dimmer one, which would also have affected their evolution somewhat. ... The longer Vilani lifespan for example won't be something that evolved naturally.
Maybe the longer life span came from the need or a genetic tweak to adapt the Vilani to a brighter star. With the increased UV, the Vilani would have to have better cell regeneration than Terran humans. With better cell regeneration could come a longer life span.

Of course, the downside would be that a brighter star means more radiation -- which means more mutation -- and most mutations (in excess of 99.99%) that express in active DNA segments = cancer or are deleterious.

So, in fact, the Vilani lifespan should probably be *shorter* than baseline humans because of increased incidence of cancer ... at least, before they get off planet.

Yes, I know, this is an environmental factor rather than a genetic one ... but it would make it extremely unlikely that genetic developments such as pale skin, blonde hair and blue eyes, all of which arose in high latitudes on Terra, would be common on Vland ... and would be unlikely to spread far or fast if they did appear, as they would be perceived as non-survival.

Ergo, the overwhelming likelihood is that Vilani will have Black or Brown hair, Brown (possibly Hazel) eyes, and dark (black or brown) skin (and also be lactose intolerant but capable of eating things baseline humans would get sick thinking about eating :shock:).

Phil
 
Hey aspqrz, thank you for the interesting thread. Not often I get to think about exogenetics!!

A couple of points. First, your assumptions with regard to hair colour are somewhat flawed. A specific point mutation is not required for non-black hair colours, all you need is differences in production of eumelanin and phaeomelanin, which can occur at a number of levels, including transcriptional and post-transcriptional regulation. That is to say, there are dozens if not hundreds of mutational events, and probably hundreds or thousands of epigenetic events, which could cause hair colours other than black. Keep in mind that hair colour is a complex polygenic trait that incorporates environmental inputs! Also- if Vland has more UV or different light spectra, we might expect to see some bleached hair anyway :wink:

With regard to your point about increased incidence or prevalence of cancer or other diseases arising from increased exposure to UV on Vland- this is likely to be true if you assume no adaptational response to this pressure. Keeping in mind that these cancers are likely to be skin cancers, any reduction in Vilani lifespan would have to be a function of the proportion of these lesions which become malignant and how early they do so. Fortunately for our Vilani, skin cancers are probably the only ones they have any reasonable hope of treating (surgically) with their limited medical expertise, but some proportion will go undetected or will become malignant before they are detected.

The question then is how much UV they're getting- if they're getting enough that kids are getting cells in their epidermis initiated soon after birth (skin cancers are generally latent for years or if not decades after initiation), they may actually suffer disease effects before they get a chance to reproduce- in this case, it is likely that there will be selection for individuals with much higher DNA repair enzyme activity, and the Vilani as a whole may actually have a vastly increased tolerance to cancer! On the other hand, if the Vilani are dying from metastisized skin cancers after age 40 or so, there might not be much selective pressure for increased DNA repair, and, as you suggested, the average lifespan of the Vilani is likely to be reduced somewhat. They would also probably have a cultural wariness of discoloured skin, birthmarks, etc; anything that could be interpreted as being cancerous or pre-cancerous.

Just some thoughts!
 
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