Vargr: "their eyesight is worse in darkness?!?"

[Yenaldlooshi]

If they are based on Terran Canids, they have over stated a minor problem they have in low light. They see less detail, but they detect motion better.

"
Dogs' vision is better than humans' in the dark. Their night vision is superior due to a combination of special adaptations:

• Tapetum lucidum: A reflective layer behind the retina that bounces light back through the photoreceptors, improving low-light vision. It’s what makes their eyes glow in the dark.
• More rod cells: Rods are the photoreceptor cells that detect light and motion in dim conditions. Dogs have a higher ratio of rods to cones (color-detecting cells) than humans, which enhances their ability to see in low light.
• Wider pupils: Dogs have larger pupils relative to their eye size, allowing more light to enter.

However, their visual acuity (sharpness) is worse, so they see less detail in both light and dark conditions. Essentially, they can spot movement in near darkness far better than humans but won’t make out fine details."

Based on this it seems they should get a DM+1 instead of -1 in the dark unless they are trying to read small print or build wargame miniatures in the dark. Thoughts anyone? Any designers/authors who can advise different?

 

[Sigtrygg]

Vargr are not dogs. Nor were they uplifted from dogs.

Why would they have features in common with dogs? Wolves yes, dogs no.

So did wolves 300,000 years ago have these features?

 

[Condottiere]

Maybe you need to balance off hearing and sense of smell.

 

[CordwainerFish]

Vargr are related to dogs but they are not dogs. This is not an issue.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Dogs evolved 270,000 years after Vargr were uplifed from wolves.

Do you know if wolves 300,000 years ago had these modern features?

 

[Condottiere]

Since it usually involves game balance, maybe the Vargr have other advantages.

 

[Geir]

"Growing up in a society known for its garish glaring neon lights, Vargr have developed poor night vision, similar to how human children who spend more time reading tend to develop nearsightedness...."

Or something...

 

[G'Naakbusters]

There are the Roth Thokken, who are blind from birth. But they're also psychic.

Evidently, canids can either have good eyesight or magic mind powers. Dogs have one, Roth Thokken the other, normal Vargr are somewhere in the middle.

I declare this settled science.

 

[AndrewW]

"similar to how human children who spend more time reading tend to develop nearsightedness...."

Hey, I resemble that remark.

 

[Condottiere]

 

[Yenaldlooshi]

Vargr are not dogs. Nor were they uplifted from dogs.

Why would they have features in common with dogs? Wolves yes, dogs no.

So did wolves 300,000 years ago have these features?

Well, genetically speaking, wolves are so close to dog that scientists have considered removing any naming difference between Canis Lupis and Canis Familiaris due to the idea that they cannot find any scientific basis for considering them different species rather than different breeds of the same animal.

Are you aware of any massive difference between the night vision of a dog vs a wolf that I am not aware of?

Dogs are descended from wolves that were domesticated. Which if you think about it is what the Ancients were doing as part of their uplifting process.

 

[Yenaldlooshi]

Maybe you need to balance off hearing and sense of smell.

Thought of that maybe that is game mechanic balancing in a direction that is polar opposite of common understanding. Like saying humans get a negative when trying to use technology or tools.

 

[Yenaldlooshi]

"Growing up in a society known for its garish glaring neon lights, Vargr have developed poor night vision, similar to how human children who spend more time reading tend to develop nearsightedness...."

Or something...

Is that an actual quote from canon or something you made on the fly? It's a bit of bending over backward to explain something that doesn't really need to be there.

Besides, evolutionary change takes thousands of years more than even the length of time even the Vilani had the TL for neon lighting. I might be wrong there, it might be millions, actually. Maybe one could say it was an odd artifact of the Ancients uplift process, but still, I like features that dove tail with the primitive species that the sophont described descended from, not differences that run in complete opposition. I know... "then put in your TU". lol.

 

[Yenaldlooshi]

Ok, thanks guys. I appreciate all the responses, honestly.

I am thinking for IMTU, I will say they only suffer a -1 due to darkness if reading or other similar detail work, not everything lowlight. They will not get an extra bonus for night vision to see movement other than the Recon+1 which encompasses the better smell and hearing. No, they do not equal a wolf or dog in this regard, but neither do humans have equal physical abilities with the species we were "uplifted" from through natural evolution. done!

 

[Arkathan]

Well, genetically speaking, wolves are so close to dog that scientists have considered removing any naming difference between Canis Lupis and Canis Familiaris due to the idea that they cannot find any scientific basis for considering them different species rather than different breeds of the same animal.

Are you aware of any massive difference between the night vision of a dog vs a wolf that I am not aware of?

Dogs are descended from wolves that were domesticated. Which if you think about it is what the Ancients were doing as part of their uplifting process.

Google says dogs and wolves have good low-light vision, but wolves have better peripheral vision, needed for hunting.

 

[Geir]

Is that an actual quote from canon or something you made on the fly? It's a bit of bending over backward to explain something that doesn't really need to be there.

Besides, evolutionary change takes thousands of years more than even the length of time even the Vilani had the TL for neon lighting. I might be wrong there, it might be millions, actually. Maybe one could say it was an odd artifact of the Ancients uplift process, but still, I like features that dove tail with the primitive species that the sophont described descended from, not differences that run in complete opposition. I know... "then put in your TU". lol.

Nah, just randomly making up something that might almost funny during breakfast.

 

[WHULorigan]

Well, *IF* Vargr vision is similar to modern Canine (i.e. Dog and/or Wolf) vision, then their primary qualities are:

• Good Low-light Vision (more Rod-Cells than Humans)
• Poorer colour perception - Dichromatic as opposed to Trichromatic Vision - Canines are approximately Red-Green Colourblind having only two types of Cone-Cells instead of three. They see mostly Blues, Yellows and Greys/Browns, and confuse Reds/Greens (probably seeing Greys/Browns/Blacks instead).
• Good motion detection sense
• Rely more heavily on hearing and smell ^* than humans to sense and track.

See: https://www.canadavet.com/blog/are-dogs-actually-color-blind​

https://www.rover.com/blog/are-dogs-colorblind/​

^* Also, very recent studies of Canine neurological structure and pathways in the brain have shown that their Olfactory Lobes in their brains are HUGE compared to all other species (not necessarily surprising), but those lobes are also interconnected/intertwined with their Visual Cortex in a way not seen in any other species. When canines "sniff" at things or "sniff" the air, their Visual Cortex is also activated - they are actually "seeing images" in some way that we cannot understand. ​

 

[Geir]

Well, *IF* Vargr vision is similar to modern Canine (i.e. Dog and/or Wolf) vision, then their primary qualities are:

• Good Low-light Vision (more Rod-Cells than Humans)
• Poorer colour perception - Dichromatic as opposed to Trichromatic Vision - Canines are approximately Red-Green Colourblind having only two types of Cone-Cells instead of three. They see mostly Blues, Yellows and Greys/Browns, and confuse Reds/Greens (probably seeing Greys/Browns/Blacks instead).
• Good motion detection sense
• Rely more heavily on hearing and smell ^* than humans to sense and track.

See: https://www.canadavet.com/blog/are-dogs-actually-color-blind​

https://www.rover.com/blog/are-dogs-colorblind/​

^* Also, very recent studies of Canine neurological structure and pathways in the brain have shown that their Olfactory Lobes in their brains are HUGE compared to all other species (not necessarily surprising), but those lobes are also interconnected/intertwined with their Visual Cortex in a way not seen in any other species. When canines "sniff" at things or "sniff" the air, their Visual Cortex is also activated - they are actually "seeing images" in some way that we cannot understand. ​

I wonder what they 'see' when they roll around in poop. Um... dogs, I mean. Though if we're going down that road, then do Vargr also roll in excrement for fun? And eat it?

But to the neon light random comment of the morning. The human nearsighted thing came about after writing was invented, probably after printing, though who knows how young scribes where when they started to learn - still only a few hundred or thousand years , not evolutionary, but environmental (or.... remove the negative Recon DM for Vargr of TL4 or less and grant DM+1 to Humans of EDU 5 or less? Or not.)

 

[ottarrus]

If they are based on Terran Canids, they have over stated a minor problem they have in low light. They see less detail, but they detect motion better.

"
Dogs' vision is better than humans' in the dark. Their night vision is superior due to a combination of special adaptations:

• Tapetum lucidum: A reflective layer behind the retina that bounces light back through the photoreceptors, improving low-light vision. It’s what makes their eyes glow in the dark.
• More rod cells: Rods are the photoreceptor cells that detect light and motion in dim conditions. Dogs have a higher ratio of rods to cones (color-detecting cells) than humans, which enhances their ability to see in low light.
• Wider pupils: Dogs have larger pupils relative to their eye size, allowing more light to enter.

However, their visual acuity (sharpness) is worse, so they see less detail in both light and dark conditions. Essentially, they can spot movement in near darkness far better than humans but won’t make out fine details."

Based on this it seems they should get a DM+1 instead of -1 in the dark unless they are trying to read small print or build wargame miniatures in the dark. Thoughts anyone? Any designers/authors who can advise different?

Vargr are uplifted, yes, but they've also had 299,000 years of evolutionary development entirely free from Ancients manipulation.
I personally treat Vargr senses as about par with human in eyesight, MUCH better in hearing, significantly better in taste /smell. Where Vargr vision 'fails' them is in declination of color. Humans see finer gradients of color [the difference between rose red and scarlet, for example], where Vargr seem to be slightly color blind in human terms. That doesn't mean that Vargr don't see well. They can identify movement and track it far better than humans can, for example.
Beyond all this is the biological imperatives that interpret sensory input for all life forms. Humans evolved from prey animals... SMART prey animals, but no matter how you parse it a monkey troop is still prey for a pack of hyenas. Humans therefore interpret their sensory input as threats. But Vargr never lost their basic predatory impulse. They interpret information in hunting terms...

 

[Condottiere]

Evolutionary pressure on their home planet, so, I'd say environmental.

Light conditions, whether at day or night.