Historic tech levels

[ResslynHalvik]

Do have a position on how tech levels change/have changed over time?

For example, the Sword Worlds Gram and Sacnoth are currently TL 12 (cutting edge for that area). What were they 25, 50, 100, 500 years ago? (Slightly puzzling, the _Gram_ class troop carrying, the eponymous class for the ship _Gram_ that brought the first Sword Worlds settler hundreds of years ago, is listed as TL12)

 

[Limpin Legin]

Tech Levels can advance and increase over time. This is called Tech Uplift.

Tech Levels can stagnate over time. This can be due to i) scientific, ii) cultural and iii) resource reasons.

Technology Level - Traveller

wiki.travellerrpg.com

Tech Levels of certain worlds can go down. For example, during the Long Night (or interregnum period) , between the 2nd and 3rd Imperiums, many worlds did not return to their prior state, because one world was cut off from another during the war.

Long Night - Traveller

wiki.travellerrpg.com

You can view the change of UWP between Imperiums on Travellermap website.

The Traveller Map

An interactive map of the universe of the Traveller role playing game, incorporating official data and fan submissions. The site also provides services for generating custom maps and APIs for incorporating maps into other sites.

travellermap.com

Select the three stacked "-" icon, from the top right menu, then select Milieu, select the timeline you want, and the map will be redrawn under a different timeline.

 

[Vormaerin]

No star system that isn't a major race homeworld developed "organically". So technology is never going to look analogous to any Terran historical period. Everyone got to their world on a starship, so minimum of TL8. And most are Jump drive settlers so probably TL 10+.

What TL they are now depends on the local history/culture/politics and what resources they have. And the vast majority of worlds will have a very eclectic and disparate technology rather than any kind of coherent one, because of trade. Just like you can have rural villagers in developing countries with cellphones on Earth.

So the short answer is you get to invent that with each world you want to put a spotlight on

 

[Condottiere]

This is pretty much plot based.

The Imperium went from technological level twelve to fifteen in a thousand years.

Terrans went from technological level eight/nine to twelve in a couple of centuries.

Sword World colonists may have dropped a couple of technological levels, before building back up to twelve.

Can't say why there wasn't some reverse engineering going on, when encountering an interstellar polity with a higher technological level, except, apparently, by the Terrans and the Aslan.

 

[rinku]

As far as I know, no. As the others have suggested, it's likely that the original TL12 ship and its people would not have counted as full TL12 during the early days of the colony. Their ability to make new TL12 stuff was likely severely limited, but as far as I can tell they never had a true "long night" where they lost records or dropped into barbarism.

As well, they had intermittent contact with more established groups such as the Darrians, the Zhodani and other human enclaves. Probably some wandering Vargr and Aslan in those pre-Imperial days. I suspect they weren't ENTIRELY forced to bootstrap themselves, even if it was just trading for stuff.

 

[Vormaerin]

Which gets back to the point that TL is extremely fuzzy even by Traveller's fuzzy world stats standards. It can't really be based on what the locals can produce, because some very low population worlds don't actually produce anything. And if you try to say it is the TL that the average person has for their daily life, you have different questions. Such as What if the world's technology is extremely segregated? A Technologically Elevated Dictatorship in New Era terms.

What's the TL of Terra right now? The stuff available to the US military? To the typical "first world" person? To the largest number of the population, which will include a rather large number of less developed regions of the world?

 

[rinku]

And keep in mind, they arrived in the Marches only 400 years before the year zero. Imperial traders had made contact by year 73, according to CT Library Data N-Z. So at the very least, they had a source of high technology from that point onwards (though I wouldn't count out Zho or Darrian traders earlier).

 

[rinku]

Which gets back to the point that TL is extremely fuzzy even by Traveller's fuzzy world stats standards. It can't really be based on what the locals can produce, because some very low population worlds don't actually produce anything. And if you try to say it is the TL that the average person has for their daily life, you have different questions. Such as What if the world's technology is extremely segregated? A Technologically Elevated Dictatorship in New Era terms.

What's the TL of Terra right now? The stuff available to the US military? To the typical "first world" person? To the largest number of the population, which will include a rather large number of less developed regions of the world?

All planets are going to vary in this, especially ones that have developed in isolation. You pretty much need to assess each world on a case by case basis, and World Builders Handbook goes into this in some detail.

But essentially - assuming an interstellar trading society - it's what is normally available. What you can go to a shop and buy at list price (Usually. Some specific gear may have little to no demand on a given planet, regardless of tech level... an airless rock is unlikely to have scuba diving equipment for sale. Likewise, Law Level does regulate weapon and armour availability).

Higher tech gear is usually available at a premium, especially if there's an appropriate world nearby. CSC discusses this stuff.

 

[rinku]

TLDR: It's likely that in the short timeframe the Colonists were isolated they retained most of their existing, mature interstellar society knowledge and records, even if they might not have been able to make that stuff yet. It does seem that they never lost the ability to Jump, even if it was just the original ship for a long time.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Basically, no. I am aware of no resource that includes when individual worlds achieved their historical tech levels. I wish there was one, but for that to happen would require an actual setting, with an actual history.

 

[ResslynHalvik]

Thanks, all. I was wondering about this because I have a Sword Worlder NPC who has a hunting rifle handed down through the generations, and I am wondering what TL to make it. I think I'll handwave it as TL 8 or 9.

 

[Vormaerin]

All planets are going to vary in this, especially ones that have developed in isolation. You pretty much need to assess each world on a case by case basis, and World Builders Handbook goes into this in some detail.

But essentially - assuming an interstellar trading society - it's what is normally available. What you can go to a shop and buy at list price (Usually. Some specific gear may have little to no demand on a given planet, regardless of tech level... an airless rock is unlikely to have scuba diving equipment for sale. Likewise, Law Level does regulate weapon and armour availability).

Higher tech gear is usually available at a premium, especially if there's an appropriate world nearby. CSC discusses this stuff.

And "normally available" is a practically meaningless statement. Normally available to whom? Normally available *from* whom? My point is that TL is almost useless as a stat, because it's at such a high level you can't really predict anything with it.

Two different TL5 worlds are going to have radically different technological infrastructure based on local environmental and cultural demands.

 

[rinku]

And "normally available" is a practically meaningless statement. Normally available to whom? Normally available *from* whom? My point is that TL is almost useless as a stat, because it's at such a high level you can't really predict anything with it.

Two different TL5 worlds are going to have radically different technological infrastructure based on local environmental and cultural demands.

Sure. But you wouldn't expect to get your Air/Raft repaired at either one.

 

[Vormaerin]

No, you shouldn't expect it. But it's entirely possible because some local with more money than they know what to do with might have imported them and so there's some facility to provide that service.

And, of course, there's the whole issue of the starport. If it's C (or maybe even D) then the level of technological contamination in the values is going to be pretty absurd. Just in the Regina subsector there are 5 pre-stellar tech worlds with C or B starports. Heya being literally TL 5 with a class B starport.

The topic was how have TLs on various worlds varied over time.

All I am suggesting is that it is impossible to take the TL rating too loosely. 99% of the worlds are not going to look anything like the TL eras suggested by comparison to Earth. Most people will have started at higher tech and now are lower tech. You aren't going to have layers of ancient ruins of castles and whatnot because people almost certain slid down rather than climbed up to their current TL if its pre-stellar. Trade in most Charted Space situations is going to be mixing things up.

It's going to be messy and the lower the TL, the more likely it'll be extremely messy. The TL 11-13 worlds would probably be more "compliant" than any sub TL 10 world is with its rating.

 

[rinku]

Yeah, I agree there. The Stellar brackets are going to stabilise because of interstellar trade. Pre-Stellar worlds are reliant on visiting trade, or are actually isolated.

One of the best things that MegaTraveller had was bringing in TL brackets.

 

[MasterGwydion]

No, you shouldn't expect it. But it's entirely possible because some local with more money than they know what to do with might have imported them and so there's some facility to provide that service.

And, of course, there's the whole issue of the starport. If it's C (or maybe even D) then the level of technological contamination in the values is going to be pretty absurd. Just in the Regina subsector there are 5 pre-stellar tech worlds with C or B starports. Heya being literally TL 5 with a class B starport.

The topic was how have TLs on various worlds varied over time.

All I am suggesting is that it is impossible to take the TL rating too loosely. 99% of the worlds are not going to look anything like the TL eras suggested by comparison to Earth. Most people will have started at higher tech and now are lower tech. You aren't going to have layers of ancient ruins of castles and whatnot because people almost certain slid down rather than climbed up to their current TL if its pre-stellar. Trade in most Charted Space situations is going to be mixing things up.

It's going to be messy and the lower the TL, the more likely it'll be extremely messy. The TL 11-13 worlds would probably be more "compliant" than any sub TL 10 world is with its rating.

As I have stated before. This is what happens when you dilute the meaning of a word so much that it is no longer usable in any real way. Because "morons" wanted to think "outside of the box" or didn't want to be "restricted" in any way while building their adventures, now you have a system with no actual definitions for almost everything. Population does not equal population. Tech level doesn't equal Tech Level. Congrats guys! This is the result of your "creativity"

 

[MasterGwydion]

I'll put this here since this thread is the closest to what I am looking for.

The Sindalian Empire started at TL-13 in -2,074 3I. By the time of their demise 400 years later, they were TL-15 with some TL-16 Artificial Intelligence stuff. How did they manage to advance from TL-13 to TL-15+ in just over 400 years? No one ever reverse engineered a Rorix or a Harrier in over 2,000 years? They have ruins and hidden underground bunkers on every single planet that they controlled. People in the region often used Sindalian robots and technology until the fall of Drinax 2,400 years later, but it never advanced past TL-15. Makes sense as during that time, they were a failing empire and so no longer developing new technologies and infrastructure.

Seems like the Darrians and the Sindali were of the same tech levels during the same time period. The only difference is that the Sindali destroyed themselves at TL-15 and the Darrians destroyed themselves a bit later at TL-16.

 

[swordtart]

Thanks, all. I was wondering about this because I have a Sword Worlder NPC who has a hunting rifle handed down through the generations, and I am wondering what TL to make it. I think I'll handwave it as TL 8 or 9.

If it doesn't have to be from the sword worlds originally (i.e. it was already an antique when they brought it from the core) it could be any age. If you have the Field Guide you can have fun populating your worlds with all sort of yester-tech.

In my campaign the professional hunters on Tarsus are traditionalists and use long barrelled bolt action rifles with a single round magazine for Nobble culls. They load the magazine and then put another round up the spout (so the magazine is really a cut-off device). They have a single well aimed shot to bring the nobble to a stand still, then 1 minor action to cycle the mechanism, and a major action to finish the animal off. A heavy rifle with Enhanced wounding ammunition usually only requires 2 shots.

The people from Regiment (who are Sword Worlder origin) use 5 shot internal magazine rifles (Krag rifles) but rely on multiple shooters to target each beast. Crass off-worlders might use assault rifles and use auto-fire from closer range. The swamp dwellers use custom made single shot very long barrel rifles from far off. These lovingly crafted guns have the Accurate and Lethal traits, but as they are single shot even a potential 6x price multiple keeps the cost reasonable. With enhanced wounding ammunition they can generally drop a large nobble with a single shot and are so far way that the rest of the herd doesn't even notice.

Every gun needs a story