Vehicle Building Issues

[tytalan]

So I’ve been playing around with both high guard and the vehicle handbook. Now the last time I played Traveller it was MegaTraveller which IMO still had the best and most comprehensive ship/vehicle design system of any Traveller edition. That said I have a issue pg 44 under Spacecraft Weapons states “Any spacecraft weapon can, in theory, be mounted upon a vehicle.” “ To place a spacecraft weapon into a vehicle, simply multiply the tonnage of the weapon by four”. Seems easy enough Except High Guard doesn’t have tonnage for any weapon, they have tonnage for weapon mounts but if you use that then a fixed beam laser costs no spaces other than the mount. This makes no sense at all. Why build a tank without a ships laser if it only cost 1 or 4 spaces. And since the weapon supposed to have a dedicated fusion power plant based on the weapon space requirements this makes even less sense. I really think more effort should be put into making the two construct system either work together better or merge them into a collected whole like MegaTraveller.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

That said I have a issue pg 44 under Spacecraft Weapons states “Any spacecraft weapon can, in theory, be mounted upon a vehicle.” “ To place a spacecraft weapon into a vehicle, simply multiply the tonnage of the weapon by four”.

I only have the 2017 version, but that says:

To place a spacecraft weapon into a vehicle, simply multiply the tonnage of the weapon by four. This is
how many Spaces it will consume, to a minimum of 1 Space. Unless it is to be placed in a fixed mount, it will also need a spacecraft style turret which, at one ton on a spacecraft, will mean another 4 Spaces is required.

If it has no defined tonnage, it's one space. One laser is one space, in addition one turret is four spaces.

Highguard counts volume, so a laser fits into a turret.
Vehicle Handbook counts weight, so a laser is in addition to the turret.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

And since the weapon supposed to have a dedicated fusion power plant based on the weapon space requirements this makes even less sense.

In the 2017 ed. it's a vehicle fusion plant at 20% of total vehicle Spaces, minimum 10 Spaces, at MCr 0.2 per Space. It's a noticeable cost.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I really think more effort should be put into making the two construct system either work together better or merge them into a collected whole like MegaTraveller.

I think it's supposed to be simplistic, not realistic or compatible. It's deliberate...

 

[tytalan]

I only have the 2017 version, but that says:

If it has no defined tonnage, it's one space. One laser is one space, in addition one turret is four spaces.

Highguard counts volume, so a laser fits into a turret.
Vehicle Handbook counts weight, so a laser is in addition to the turret.

Actually what if I want to put something else in or do you assume all ship weapons take only 1 space? It’s shouldn’t talk about weapon tonnage if it doesn’t matter. That makes it a issue

 

[tytalan]

In the 2017 ed. it's a vehicle fusion plant at 20% of total vehicle Spaces, minimum 10 Spaces, at MCr 0.2 per Space. It's a noticeable cost.

Except it also saids it need a dedicated fusion plant so the plant would be based on weapon tonnage not vehicle and if you have a Fusion plant for the vehicle also you now have a minimum of 20 spaces by your logic goodbye Qiknavra and Ftaohte grav tanks your no longer buildable

 

[tytalan]

I think it's supposed to be simplistic, not realistic or compatible. It's deliberate...

It’s no simplistic if it’s no at least a little internally cohesive. I never said it needed to be completely compatible but it would be nice if we could convert existing canon vehicles and ships reasonable.

 

[tytalan]

I only have the 2017 version, but that says:

If it has no defined tonnage, it's one space. One laser is one space, in addition one turret is four spaces.

Highguard counts volume, so a laser fits into a turret.
Vehicle Handbook counts weight, so a laser is in addition to the turret.

And also the Vehicle Handbook specifically states that 4 spaces equals 1 tonnage. It also counts volume otherwise it wouldn’t track vehicle volume because that what the spaces are vehicle volume

 

[Condottiere]

We can use batteries in our spacecraft to power everything, so I wouldn't count on it for internal consistency.

Also, if you think about it, we can cram upto four spacecraft scale turret weapon systems into said turret, plus a human, which in theory is just a tonne, and therefore four spaces in total.

And unless I'm missing something, no limitations on hardpoints, or if you have to scale it down to firmpoints, including range limitations.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Actually what if I want to put something else in or do you assume all ship weapons take only 1 space? It’s shouldn’t talk about weapon tonnage if it doesn’t matter. That makes it a issue

It's tonnage × 4, minimum 1.
If tonnage is 0 or undefined, the minimum of 1 is used.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Except it also saids it need a dedicated fusion plant so the plant would be based on weapon tonnage not vehicle and if you have a Fusion plant for the vehicle also you now have a minimum of 20 spaces by your logic goodbye Qiknavra and Ftaohte grav tanks your no longer buildable

The vehicle needs a dedicated fusion plant, that powers the entire vehicle including the weapons.

Look at the old beta conversations on this board.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

And also the Vehicle Handbook specifically states that 4 spaces equals 1 tonnage. It also counts volume otherwise it wouldn’t track vehicle volume because that what the spaces are vehicle volume

The base is 1 Space = 250 kg payload.

"A vehicle can carry 250 kg for every Space that is dedicated to cargo."
"The only conversion that will be necessary is to turn the Mass of each weapon (usually listed in Kg or tons) into Spaces. This is done at a rate of 1 Space for every 250 Kg or 0.25 tons of Mass or part of."

Originally it was 1 spacecraft displacement ton = 10 Spaces. That was IIRC changed during beta as it was incompatible with Highguard Smaller Weapons.

They keep the exact definition of Space a bit undefined, to avoid this kind of discussions. You are not supposed to compare with real world units. It's the opposite of MT vehicle design.

 

[Saladman]

Originally it was 1 spacecraft displacement ton = 10 Spaces. That was IIRC changed during beta as it was incompatible with Highguard Smaller Weapons.

Is there any game balance argument for using the dton = 10 space ratio as a house rule for larger weapons, or was that always off to begin with?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Is there any game balance argument for using the dton = 10 space ratio as a house rule for larger weapons, or was that always off to begin with?

No, as far as I can remember it was just an inconsistency with HG, no real problem.

 

[Condottiere]

Spacecraft measurements are based on volume.

In theory, to make transfers compatible, so should vehicles.

I remember looking at the potentialities, but it's rather conflicting, so I moved to airships and faux air/rafts.

 

[tytalan]

T

The vehicle needs a dedicated fusion plant, that powers the entire vehicle including the weapons.

Look at the old beta conversations on this board.

That not what the book said it says the weapon need a dedicate power plant so unless it’s been errata you would need two power plants one for weapon one for vehicle that’s how it reads

 

[MongooseBella]

If you're trying to use spaceship guns on a vehicle, the book (Vehicle Handbook) says 'Any vehicle of TL15 or below will require a dedicated fusion plant (see page 49) to provide enough power to use a spacecraft weapon'. If you're using a 'normal' vehicle weapon, you wouldn't need this.

 

[tytalan]

If you're trying to use spaceship guns on a vehicle, the book (Vehicle Handbook) says 'Any vehicle of TL15 or below will require a dedicated fusion plant (see page 49) to provide enough power to use a spacecraft weapon'. If you're using a 'normal' vehicle weapon, you wouldn't need this.

Which is exactly what I said if you want a tank for example that has a starship beam laser than if it uses fusion power for movement it requires two fusion power plants at a minimum of 10 spaces each.

 

[tytalan]

Spacecraft measurements are based on volume.

In theory, to make transfers compatible, so should vehicles.

I remember looking at the potentialities, but it's rather conflicting, so I moved to airships and faux air/rafts.

Yup which is my point. That and even some of the internal rules of the vehicle handbook are conflicting with others or just makes no sense. Unpowered boats for example includes Sailboats and Steam boats maybe yet powered boats also includes those. And very few chassis’s actually address what type of power plant is used.

It’s like on one hand they went with volume like MegaTraveller did but than the stepped away from that and just hand waved everything else. I’d really like to see a major rewrite for the updated one coming next year something that is more consistent with high guard and makes better internal sense.

 

[Condottiere]

You could abuse the cart and rowboat chassis(ii), but it's not really fun.

Though I was considering using the cart as a carriage for cannon(s).