UWP Real or Not???

[MongooseMatt]

If you published a setting, you should not go and change something that is already published, except rules updates.

Could not disagree more - for a couple of reasons.

First, there might be some things that were written in the past that are just not...brilliant in the 21st Century. Two examples we have encountered off the top of my head would be some system names that were, umm, a bit political, and that now Droyne Sports can be female. One of those really needed changing, the other had no reason not to be changed. There was no good reason for us to be locked into past publications on those scores.

Second, and in a way this is more important, what you are proposing would result in a static setting and those have a tendency to grow stale. Again, Dune might (at time of typing) be an exception there, but this is where vibrant settings such as the MCU, Battlestar Galactica, and Star Wars live.

That is not to say that there are no sacred cows in Traveller - there absolutely are. The lack of FTL communications beyond the speed of a ship is something that will never, ever change, for example. There are other things that can (and maybe should) stand to be revisited. This way we keep Traveller fresh and relevant to new generations.

And this completely ignores how settings change when you change the medium they are being presented in - a Traveller film or video game would very likely have differences (perhaps quite large ones) compared to the RPG...

 

[Sigtrygg]

I'm sorry but that Droyne sport change really annoys me - the Droyne are an alien race and have three sexes. They do not see gender the way progressives do.

Droyne Gender: Droyne have three sexes, designated Alpha Male, Beta Male, and Female.
[Gender develops only after casting. Would you prefer Female, Male, and male? We don't actually have words for a third sex, plenty of words for genders beyond male and female]
Drones are female; Leaders, Sports, and Warriors are Alpha Males; Workers and Technicians are Beta Males
Reproduction is complex; pheromones generated by Beta Males are necessary before a Female can ovulate and be fertilized by the Alpha Male

Females ovulate, females lay eggs - they are called Drones.

No other caste can ovulate or lay eggs. Caste is the important distinction, not sex or gender, to a Droyne.

Whatever their evolution, Droyne are unique among the major races. Adult Droyne belong to one of six esorde (castes)
which, unlike K'kree and human castes, are not social groupings; they are biologically distinct categories. There is far more difference between Droyne castes than between human sexes, for example.

So it could actually be argued that, in the language of progressives, Droyne have six genders.

Now here is the kicker, Droyne children (who are casteless and thus sex/genderless) have the potential to be any caste and therefore any sex/gender.

All Droyne have the potential to develop into members of any caste; there is no hereditary predisposition known in caste development.

Could Droyne have a ritual that allows a caste to be changed if needed (Don and I discussed this).

Instead of forcing progressive tropes on an alien race with a very different biology try explaining the differences between Droyne and humans and leave prejudice at the door.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Data like that doesn't change for gaming - at least for Traveller it does not. For the past 3-4 decades nearly every version of Traveller has used, roughly, the same exact time period. It's a setting background and not really meant to change unless you advance the game time frame as well.

The 1248 materials assumed time moved on from the original dates, but mostly it's static.

UWP leaves a lot to be desired, and it's nothing more than a very high-level description. GMs should detail out the area they want the players to explore and adventure in. They can, if they want, use already generated data. But, as you've pointed out, the random generated data sometimes is bonkers. This is the area that detailed settings do much better (but consume more time and effort). You will find some of the supplements having very detailed info for specific areas, but nobody has tried to do the entire Imperium (or at least survived to share it).

That last part, that nobody survived to share it? lolz! That I believe! lol

 

[MasterGwydion]

I'm sorry but that Droyne sport change really annoys me - the Droyne are an alien race and have three sexes. They do not see gender the way progressives do.



Females ovulate, females lay eggs - they are called Drones.

No other caste can ovulate or lay eggs. Caste is the important distinction, not sex or gender, to a Droyne.


So it could actually be argued that, in the language of progressives, Droyne have six genders.

Now here is the kicker, Droyne children (who are casteless and thus sex/genderless) have the potential to be any caste and therefore any sex/gender.



Could Droyne have a ritual that allows a caste to be changed if needed (Don and I discussed this).

Instead of forcing progressive tropes on an alien race with a very different biology try explaining the differences between Droyne and humans and leave prejudice at the door.

I don't know much about the Droyne in general, so I was not even aware of any changes. For Me as a Referee, the Droyne are really difficult to understand as a race, so they do not feature much in My games. I figure that, if I can't do them justice, I should just leave them alone. lol If a player really gets a bee in his bonnet and wants to visit a Droyne world, I won't say no, but I will panic as I understand next to nothing about them. lol

 

[MasterGwydion]

Could not disagree more - for a couple of reasons.

First, there might be some things that were written in the past that are just not...brilliant in the 21st Century. Two examples we have encountered off the top of my head would be some system names that were, umm, a bit political, and that now Droyne Sports can be female. One of those really needed changing, the other had no reason not to be changed. There was no good reason for us to be locked into past publications on those scores.

Second, and in a way this is more important, what you are proposing would result in a static setting and those have a tendency to grow stale. Again, Dune might (at time of typing) be an exception there, but this is where vibrant settings such as the MCU, Battlestar Galactica, and Star Wars live.

That is not to say that there are no sacred cows in Traveller - there absolutely are. The lack of FTL communications beyond the speed of a ship is something that will never, ever change, for example. There are other things that can (and maybe should) stand to be revisited. This way we keep Traveller fresh and relevant to new generations.

And this completely ignores how settings change when you change the medium they are being presented in - a Traveller film or video game would very likely have differences (perhaps quite large ones) compared to the RPG...

Matt - None (almost none) of the original system UWP codes were brilliant. They were randomly generated so that they would have something called Charted Space and didn't want to actually figure out each planet. (Can't say I blame them. Lots of stars in the sky and all.) This is fine as far as methodology goes, but it has created a mess of creative explanations that are needed for some ridiculous worlds, Like Lt worlds with Atmosphere that they cannot survive in without technological assistance. (This rule is in the book, but the original writers violated the hell out of it. lol) In an ideal world, they should all be written to make sense, but I am not asking for that. I am actually asking for the UWP Codes to not change. If you leave the codes the same and just change how they are interpreted, none of the worlds' actually UWP Codes need to change. Although you may want to consider taking that rule about Required TL to live on a world out of the rule book. It adds nothing and automatically assumes human norms and environmental needs for potentially very alien sophonts. For non-altered humans this rule may be true, but for everyone else, it is not.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Instead of forcing progressive tropes on an alien race with a very different biology try explaining the differences between Droyne and humans and leave prejudice at the door.

It is not about progressive tropes - Traveller today now has a much wider range of players and we have to nod to that. This is something we specifically discussed with Marc ('Hey Marc, about these all male Sports...'. 'Umm, yes, I think Droyne can be equal opportunities.'). Especially as Sports are the 'odd' Droyne to begin with, and there is certainly room for this idea.

Things change in the real world, and Traveller can and should move along too - especially as it is rooted in classic science-fiction which, by its nature, is a reflection of the real world. And we have seen the change in the Traveller player base over the past decade or so, whenever we go to a convention, and in the mail orders people are placing. A lot more women visiting TAS hostels these days.

The Droyne change (more of a tweak?) was a really small thing, and no-one made a peep about it when we released that Aliens book. This is just a case of certain things being taken for granted in the past and benefitting from a little review now. The Geonee were a problem. The Aslan, on the other hand, create a genuinely interesting view on a gender-split society and are something both men and women (and male and female characters) can have a lot of fun exploring.

These are all, of course, fascinating areas to explore within the realms of science-fiction, and we may well return to flesh them out. However, we were in the midst of doing a book that (relatively) quickly brought Droyne character into the game, and we needed to introduce that idea at a base level.

Only reasons it is there.

 

[MongooseMatt]

For Me as a Referee, the Droyne are really difficult to understand as a race, so they do not feature much in My games.

That is understandable, and some of the Traveller aliens can be a little daunting from that perspective because they are not simply humans with exaggerated personality traits in a costume. However, the Droyne can be fun - start with small doses, perhaps with a Traveller taking one in non-Droyne space, You can get a real 'fish out of water' feel to things and, as a Referee, you will love it if/when the Droyne starts trying to make predictions with coyns

 

[Vormaerin]

The fact that humans put outsize importance on sex behaviors and feel the need to map their gender constructs onto everything they encounter, whether it is an alien, an animal, an inanimate object, or a concept is one of their less useful characteristics. Droyne don't have the same genders as humans and assigning them "male" and 'female' is innately flawed.

That said, if a player came to me and said "I wanna play a female droyne" despite the above, that would leave me with three choices:

1) No, fidelity to these imaginary beings' concept is more important than your fun, sorry.

2) Let they play a Drone that somehow functions independently and interacts with aliens as effectively as a Sport

3) Let them play a sport that they can consider female.


Of the three, the last makes the most sense to me. Droyne don't have gender roles or concepts that map to male and female, so a sport forming a kroyless with aliens may well decide that their role in this alien kroyloss matches the alien word "female". Especially if they had early encounters with Aslan.

Because one thing I can tell you is that the PC's role in Droyne reproductive rites is going to have a relevance to the campaign approaching zero.

 

[Condottiere]

Everything is about sex.

And sex is about power.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Of the three, the last makes the most sense to me. Droyne don't have gender roles or concepts that map to male and female, so a sport forming a kroyless with aliens may well decide that their role in this alien kroyloss matches the alien word "female".

I was going to go into this, but thought I had already written too much

The idea here would be that the Droyne is 'presenting' as female or, at least, female as humans would perceive them. In the interests of convenience, given that players are all human and not always as 'deep' into Traveller lore as the Referee, the term 'female Droyne' is an easy shorthand that gets the idea across and allows everyone to start playing.

There is obvious nuance here, and maybe something we can delve into with a future Droyne book.

 

[Sigtrygg]

It is not about progressive tropes - Traveller today now has a much wider range of players and we have to nod to that. This is something we specifically discussed with Marc ('Hey Marc, about these all male Sports...'. 'Umm, yes, I think Droyne can be equal opportunities.'). Especially as Sports are the 'odd' Droyne to begin with, and there is certainly room for this idea.

It's not about twenty first progressive equal opportunities. The Droyne have three sexes and only the drone caste is female. There is no room for Sports being female, human definitions of gender and sex are meaningless to them. If a Droyne sport wants to act like a human female good luck to them.
Droyne that are caste as drones are female, end of.

Like I said, we were exploring if Droyne could change caste (and therefore sex/gender) through a very rare ritual. That is exploring the sci fi

Things change in the real world, and Traveller can and should move along too - especially as it is rooted in classic science-fiction which, by its nature, is a reflection of the real world. And we have seen the change in the Traveller player base over the past decade or so, whenever we go to a convention, and in the mail orders people are placing. A lot more women visiting TAS hostels these days.

Why can't it be accepted that an alien race has three sexes and six biologically different castes?

The Droyne change (more of a tweak?) was a really small thing, and no-one made a peep about it when we released that Aliens book. This is just a case of certain things being taken for granted in the past and benefitting from a little review now. The Geonee were a problem. The Aslan, on the other hand, create a genuinely interesting view on a gender-split society and are something both men and women (and male and female characters) can have a lot of fun exploring.

Probably because no one noticed, I would certainly have raised the issue had I noticed at the time, much like noticing how much plagiarism is in the Zhodani - entire passages word for word exactly the same as GT.

These are all, of course, fascinating areas to explore within the realms of science-fiction, and we may well return to flesh them out. However, we were in the midst of doing a book that (relatively) quickly brought Droyne character into the game, and we needed to introduce that idea at a base level.

The Droyne are a fascinating race, with a lot more potential than just "they were the Ancients weren't they."

Don and i discussed some really interesting stuff, and a lot of his ideas were really good.

Only reasons it is there.

 

[Sigtrygg]

The fact that humans put outsize importance on sex behaviors and feel the need to map their gender constructs onto everything they encounter, whether it is an alien, an animal, an inanimate object, or a concept is one of their less useful characteristics. Droyne don't have the same genders as humans and assigning them "male" and 'female' is innately flawed.

I completely agree, they have six biologially different castes, which have three sex/gender categories.

That said, if a player came to me and said "I wanna play a female droyne" despite the above, that would leave me with three choices:

1) No, fidelity to these imaginary beings' concept is more important than your fun, sorry.

2) Let they play a Drone that somehow functions independently and interacts with aliens as effectively as a Sport

3) Let them play a sport that they can consider female.

I'd go with 3 as well. Players are what matter in my games, if they want to try a character like that then I am not going to stop them.

Of the three, the last makes the most sense to me. Droyne don't have gender roles or concepts that map to male and female, so a sport forming a kroyless with aliens may well decide that their role in this alien kroyloss matches the alien word "female". Especially if they had early encounters with Aslan.

Precisely.

Because one thing I can tell you is that the PC's role in Droyne reproductive rites is going to have a relevance to the campaign approaching zero.

You should have seen what could have made it to the next Droyne book...
scenarios involving ritual warfare vs real warfare, alternative coyn rituals, and yes reproduction.

 

[Geir]

And I thought only the Drone Droyne had gender... or to be more correct, were the only Droyne with a reproductive function, but what do I know. I don't spend much time looking at dirty Alien pictures. I don't think (haven't checked, not planning to) any of it was clearly delineated in the classic Aliens book. Don't even know if they're birthed as eggs or not (was going to say 'live' but don't want to be placentaist).

 

[Sigtrygg]

I was going to go into this, but thought I had already written too much

As long as we are not distracting you from not getting the next book out it is good to talk.

The idea here would be that the Droyne is 'presenting' as female or, at least, female as humans would perceive them. In the interests of convenience, given that players are all human and not always as 'deep' into Traveller lore as the Referee, the term 'female Droyne' is an easy shorthand that gets the idea across and allows everyone to start playing.

That's good enough for me

There is obvious nuance here, and maybe something we can delve into with a future Droyne book.

Agreed.

 

[Sigtrygg]

And I thought only the Drone Droyne had gender... or to be more correct, were the only Droyne with a reproductive function, but what do I know. I don't spend much time looking at dirty Alien pictures. I don't think (haven't checked, not planning to) any of it was clearly delineated in the classic Aliens book. Don't even know if they're birthed as eggs or not (was going to say 'live' but don't want to be placentaist).

It's called research - reading all the CT material is a good place to start.
The bits I quoted above are from the CT Droyne Alien module - you do have the CT cd I hope?

And yes, the drones (females) lay eggs. The females ovulate thanks to, well read it for yourself:

Reproduction is complex; pheromones generated by Beta Males are necessary before a Female can ovulate and be fertilized by the Alpha Male.
The drones lay clutches of fertilized eggs, and nurture them after they hatch. They are fed predigested food reduced to manageable consistency in a mouth pouch; the young are weaned at the age of about one standard year.

 

[Geir]

It's called research - reading all the CT material is a good place to start.
The bits I quoted above are from the CT Droyne Alien module - you do have the CT cd I hope?

And yes, the drones (females) lay eggs. The females ovulate thanks to, well read it for yourself:

Forgot about the egg reference, but:

The Droyne family is essential to procreation. The presence
of the different castes helps to make the drone lay eggs and
to allow them to be fertilized. Each of the caste members
secretes a variety of pheromones which, in combination, makes
the drone fertile.

-Classic Traveller Aliens Module 5, p. 10

Calling a Drone 'female' with that in mind is er, humanist(?). At best 'Egg layer'.

And then on page 11 it pretty much contradicts (at best clarifies in a muddy way) itself with the quote you included. But I should have kept my mouth (fingers) shut... unfortunate tangent.

 

[MasterGwydion]

It is not about progressive tropes - Traveller today now has a much wider range of players and we have to nod to that. This is something we specifically discussed with Marc ('Hey Marc, about these all male Sports...'. 'Umm, yes, I think Droyne can be equal opportunities.'). Especially as Sports are the 'odd' Droyne to begin with, and there is certainly room for this idea.

Things change in the real world, and Traveller can and should move along too - especially as it is rooted in classic science-fiction which, by its nature, is a reflection of the real world. And we have seen the change in the Traveller player base over the past decade or so, whenever we go to a convention, and in the mail orders people are placing. A lot more women visiting TAS hostels these days.

The Droyne change (more of a tweak?) was a really small thing, and no-one made a peep about it when we released that Aliens book. This is just a case of certain things being taken for granted in the past and benefitting from a little review now. The Geonee were a problem. The Aslan, on the other hand, create a genuinely interesting view on a gender-split society and are something both men and women (and male and female characters) can have a lot of fun exploring.

These are all, of course, fascinating areas to explore within the realms of science-fiction, and we may well return to flesh them out. However, we were in the midst of doing a book that (relatively) quickly brought Droyne character into the game, and we needed to introduce that idea at a base level.

Only reasons it is there.

See? Stuff like that makes sense to Me. It is such a minor change in, what is mostly, fluff. It has some mechanical changes, but not really. The Droyne thing makes Me giggle, in all honesty. It reminds Me that when Aslan deal with other races, they refer to them by the gender of their job, not the gender of their biology, because Aslan care more about culture than biology. It always reminded Me of Doctor Who when Strax couldn't tell the difference between the genders of races other than his own. I giggle every time I watch those episodes.

Changing the UWP of a world in 1105 or deciding that in 1105 the 3I no longer exists would be problems.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Forgot about the egg reference, but:

-Classic Traveller Aliens Module 5, p. 10

Calling a Drone 'female' with that in mind is er, humanist(?). At best 'Egg layer'.

Welcome to Traveller. Everything in Traveller is humanist, Earth humanist. How long is the standard day? Year? Maintenance Period? Mortgage payments? The concept of a month or a week means nothing to the Aslan. They tell time differently and even use a non-Base-10 number system. It is narrow-minded to think that they make their ship payments every 28 Earth days, but those are the rules as written, so I use them. (Plus, figuring out Aslan math breaks My brain. lol) Even the prices for Aslan goods are listed in Imperial Credits.

And then on page 11 it pretty much contradicts (at best clarifies in a muddy way) itself with the quote you included. But I should have kept my mouth (fingers) shut... unfortunate tangent.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Forgot about the egg reference, but:

-Classic Traveller Aliens Module 5, p. 10

Calling a Drone 'female' with that in mind is er, humanist(?). At best 'Egg layer'.

And then on page 11 it pretty much contradicts (at best clarifies in a muddy way) itself with the quote you included. But I should have kept my mouth (fingers) shut... unfortunate tangent.

Like I said upthread, we had a scenario...
the bare minimum for procreation is one male (leader, warrior, sport), one female (drone)and one facilitator (worker, technician). But for a thorough mixing of genetic material and nearly everything in Droyne society requires a ritual act...

by the way drones in the insect world are fertile male ants or bees etc.

 

[phavoc]

Matt - None (almost none) of the original system UWP codes were brilliant. They were randomly generated so that they would have something called Charted Space and didn't want to actually figure out each planet. (Can't say I blame them. Lots of stars in the sky and all.) This is fine as far as methodology goes, but it has created a mess of creative explanations that are needed for some ridiculous worlds, Like Lt worlds with Atmosphere that they cannot survive in without technological assistance. (This rule is in the book, but the original writers violated the hell out of it. lol) In an ideal world, they should all be written to make sense, but I am not asking for that. I am actually asking for the UWP Codes to not change. If you leave the codes the same and just change how they are interpreted, none of the worlds' actually UWP Codes need to change. Although you may want to consider taking that rule about Required TL to live on a world out of the rule book. It adds nothing and automatically assumes human norms and environmental needs for potentially very alien sophonts. For non-altered humans this rule may be true, but for everyone else, it is not.

Yup. Totally agree. To fill in the vast quantities of blanks we got random dice rolls. Now we are left with the flotsam of randomness and gyrating logic to even try to justify the existence for many locations.

I think, in hindsight, they should have left it alone until they were able to better conceptually plot out major explored areas.

Sometimes smaller is better.