UWP Real or Not???

[MongooseMatt]

Those changes only occur as the timelime advances. Why should the UWPs change retroactively? The Travellermap is a snap shot of the universe at that specific point in time. It shouldn't change, unless the rules change and those old UWPs are no longer allowed, which is not the case here.

Because settings/universes develop. Writers get better ideas, the real world changes and has an impact on fictional universes, new inspirations take hold. This is true for every long-running universe I can immediately think of (maybe not Dune?), and it is (and should be) true for Traveller too.

 

[metlk]

This is nearly identical to the discussion happening in another thread and now I'm confused as to whether people want static, unchanging codes or dynamic codes.

Because settings/universes develop. Writers get better ideas, the real world changes and has an impact on fictional universes, new inspirations take hold. This is true for every long-running universe I can immediately think of (maybe not Dune?), and it is (and should be) true for Traveller too.

Can you elaborate on this? If in the Dawn of the Third Imperium, a planetary code is one thing, should that code stay the same even during the 5th Frontier War, or should the code reflect what the planet is for that setting? Are codes static to a snapshot in time regardless of setting, or should codes be updated alongside the setting so they are accurate?

 

[Nelphine]

Some, such as MasterGwydion, want a 'master' list that shows the 'truth' - meaning something objective or authoritative that can always be relied upon in order to avoid apparent contradictions in published materials.

MongooseMatt (upholding how Traveller has generally been for a long time) is saying that does not exist. The best we have is what is written, but what is written is never better than an in-game version, not a 'master' or 'mechanical' version. Which specifically means that it can be changed at any time, and even that two different sources (authors/gamemasters/refs/rulebooks/TravellerMap) can declare different UWPs for the same planet at the same time in the same timeline, and they are then both accurate at the same time despite that contradiction. It also means that if one source says 'population 2 means 200 permanent population and 30000 robots' and a second source says 'population 2 means 200 people and 500 robots and 50000 seasonal workers who come in and out during tourist season', they are also both correct, and can be freely used however someone wants.

Further, part of the reason why Traveller does this is specifically to SHOW gamemasters that they do have the power to do that, and that they should never fall prey to a player saying 'but this source contradicts you, why is it different?'.. but also to show PLAYERS 'hey the gamemaster might have something different - well, we - published sources - also contradict ourselves, so that shouldn't be something you consider a problem'.

 

[Vormaerin]

The general principle of Traveller is to maintain the base state of the Charted Space setting so that anyone who has been building their own version (the intended use) has a stable platform.

Even in the old days when GDW was telling a progressing story, they didn't republish all the maps and make all the changes reflected by adventures and events. For instance, Hard Times gave you a conversion guide to implement as you saw fit. They did not assume that any given DM was using any given product.

They don't want the fact that they published an adventure of a rebellion on Dinom to mean that everyone else publishing in the Marches needs to alter Dinom to reflect that. They aren't going to submmit a change the Tech World UWP for Travellermap because Travellermap also supports other versions of the game, as well as people who don't buy Pirates of Drinax.

None of the "this is the official version" stuff ever comes from the publisher, in my experience. Most of them disavow the idea that there is an official version. "OTU" was a fanwars creation. Most or all of the curation during the period where they cleaned up the plethora of competing versions of things made by 3rd parties and fanzines was done by an FFE approved fan council.

The GURPS Traveller version of Charted Space is different from the GDW version, which is different from the Mongoose version. They all share a baseline and so are pretty compatible, but they aren't identical.

 

[Sigtrygg]

We have a sample size of one so let's see.
Populations can increase or decrees over time.
Governmental systems come and go, same with laws.
Technological progress varies over time.
Pollution can quickly change an atmosphere, hydrographics can be changed by moving icebergs

The Third Imperium is set in the 57th century, it is over a thousand years old. Worlds will change.

 

[Nelphine]

We have a sample size of one so let's see.
Populations can increase or decrees over time.
Governmental systems come and go, same with laws.
Technological progress varies over time.
Pollution can quickly change an atmosphere, hydrographics can be changed by moving icebergs

The Third Imperium is set in the 57th century, it is over a thousand years old. Worlds will change.

Well, in this particular case, the argument is about 'at a particular instant of in game time'. So, we're not talking about changes over in game time - there is no 'passage of years' to allow for those changes to occur.

 

[Vormaerin]

This is part of why I don't like how GURPS Traveller built all their economic extensions directly off the UWP. It is both a flimsy foundation and lacks distinctiveness from one planet to another. UWP is intentionally designed to be vague and subject to DM interpretation.

Even something straightforward like planet size doesn't tell you enough to derive much information. Mercury, Ganymede, and Callisto are all the same size class (3). But Mercury's gravity is .38g, while the larger Ganymede is .15g because they are different densities. Callisto is pretty close to Mercury's diameter, but it is even less dense. And none of them have the "average" gravity of a size 3 object, which is given as .25g.

Every single value in the UWP has that kind of variability in it. So trying to lock it down so you can build formulae off of it doesn't work, imho.

 

[Nelphine]

Sorry, there is a second problem that is being discussed, which I overlooked.

There is also the problem of published materials, using a UWP, and a description, in the same document (adventure or whatever) that clearly contradict each other (water world by UWP, desert world by description) in ways that aren't super reasonable to explain.

It's one thing to say the population changed (say, dropped down from 8 to 6) due to a recent catastrophe. Its a different thing to say ah yes, the introduction of the adventure has you going to this size 2 planet that's been colonized for hundreds of years with regular trade (but trade fell off recently, so you need to investigate), and when you get there, it turns out it is size A.


However, I think this second problem is not widespread, and is worthy of being limited to a 'huh this exact published product is silly' rather than making it part of an overall discussion about UWP 'problems'.

 

[metlk]

Well, in this particular case, the argument is about 'at a particular instant of in game time'. So, we're not talking about changes over in game time - there is no 'passage of years' to allow for those changes to occur.

This is where my point in this debate stems from. If there are no "official" planet conditions, then when a publishers makes a setting, the codes they use for that setting need to reflect that setting and not some arbitrary, unofficial code that has just been established as mostly correct at some point in the OTU. Not changing the code to properly fit the setting is disingenuous and leads to arguments such as these where the validity of codes is called into question.

 

[metlk]

Sorry, there is a second problem that is being discussed, which I overlooked.

There is also the problem of published materials, using a UWP, and a description, in the same document (adventure or whatever) that clearly contradict each other (water world by UWP, desert world by description) in ways that aren't super reasonable to explain.

It's one thing to say the population changed (say, dropped down from 8 to 6) due to a recent catastrophe. Its a different thing to say ah yes, the introduction of the adventure has you going to this size 2 planet that's been colonized for hundreds of years with regular trade (but trade fell off recently, so you need to investigate), and when you get there, it turns out it is size A.


However, I think this second problem is not widespread, and is worthy of being limited to a 'huh this exact published product is silly' rather than making it part of an overall discussion about UWP 'problems'.

This is my take on it and what I thought the discussion was originally about. I don't have any opinion on whether there is an official, canon setting or not. I'll use my own sandbox. That's where Traveller shines. I think it's important for Mongoose to try to ensure published material follows the rules, but otherwise authors should be free to do what they want.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Because settings/universes develop. Writers get better ideas, the real world changes and has an impact on fictional universes, new inspirations take hold. This is true for every long-running universe I can immediately think of (maybe not Dune?), and it is (and should be) true for Traveller too.

Exactly, but if I play a game set in 1105 3I, the map should always be the same. What happens in the future will not change the 1105 map, or shouldn't anyhow. The setting may develop, but unless you are writing specific retroactive changes, why would the future change the past?

The setting advances in time. Of course. These changes would be on whatever date map you put out next. If I have a street map from 1955, I expect it to be more or less accurate in 1955. If I use the same map in 2024, somethings will be the same, but not all. So, a map for 1105 should be accurate in 1105. That is all I am saying.

 

[Vormaerin]

Yes, if a given book has a description that is incompatible with its code, that should not happen. It is pretty rare, however.

But it needs to clear that situation applies specifically to completely incompatible. Not "a different interpretation than I favor". Tech World's Drinax description has no interpretation I can think of that makes it fit the UWP code it gives. I don't know why they changed it from 30 people and 4k robots to 4k people and 1mil robots. I suspect simple error given that Mongoose's 1e materials are less than ideally proof read and then they were probably used as a source/copy pasted into Drinax for 2e.

Other cases, like Cordan or Craw or Vanejen, where they have pops that are counted and pops that aren't as an intentional decision are a different issue, imho. That is within the remit of the rules as written and all the supporting intention of the publishers since day one agrees on that.

 

[Nelphine]

Exactly, but if I play a game set in 1105 3I, the map should always be the same. What happens in the future will not change the 1105 map, or shouldn't anyhow. The setting may develop, but unless you are writing specific retroactive changes, why would the future change the past?

The setting advances in time. Of course. These changes would be on whatever date map you put out next. If I have a street map from 1955, I expect it to be more or less accurate in 1955. If I use the same map in 2024, somethings will be the same, but not all. So, a map for 1105 should be accurate in 1105. That is all I am saying.

i think you misread what he said.

Because settings/universes develop. Writers get better ideas, the real world changes and has an impact on fictional universes, new inspirations take hold. This is true for every long-running universe I can immediately think of (maybe not Dune?), and it is (and should be) true for Traveller too.

He didn't say that time passes IN GAME, he said time passes OUT OF game, and that has an impact on the fictional universe. Meaning, yes there may be retroactive changes. And more, there may be changes that should be applied retroactively, but no one takes the time to go do so. So if you have a UWP for a world that was created in 1995, and the UWP is supposed to be for 1105 3I, and then a new book comes out in 2024, and there is a different UWP for that same world, in 1105 3I.. that's ok. That happens.

A good example of this is star generation - over the (real world) years, we have learned a lot about star generation, and early generations of games which had star generation, have been redone with completely different star generation as we have learned more, and this has sometimes retroactively changed what stars exist where depending on the game.

Traveller UWP is the same - as we learn something in the real world, a new author may go 'huh, this UWP for this planet isn't quite what i need, and i don't recall anyone else using this planet significantly, so.. we're just changing the UWP so I can write a cool story using this new thing we've learned.' And MongooseMatt (among others) is saying, that's ok, and is the kind of evolution that was always intended for Traveller.

 

[Sigtrygg]

The Third Imperium of yore did not have personal energy screens, ion weapons, stored personality/memory wafers, makers and probably a lot more. Settings evolve over time.

 

[MasterGwydion]

i think you misread what he said.

Because settings/universes develop. Writers get better ideas, the real world changes and has an impact on fictional universes, new inspirations take hold. This is true for every long-running universe I can immediately think of (maybe not Dune?), and it is (and should be) true for Traveller too.

He didn't say that time passes IN GAME, he said time passes OUT OF game, and that has an impact on the fictional universe. Meaning, yes there may be retroactive changes. And more, there may be changes that should be applied retroactively, but no one takes the time to go do so. So if you have a UWP for a world that was created in 1995, and the UWP is supposed to be for 1105 3I, and then a new book comes out in 2024, and there is a different UWP for that same world, in 1105 3I.. that's ok. That happens.

It shouldn't. That is poor editing. If you published a setting, you should not go and change something that is already published, except rules updates.

A good example of this is star generation - over the (real world) years, we have learned a lot about star generation, and early generations of games which had star generation, have been redone with completely different star generation as we have learned more, and this has sometimes retroactively changed what stars exist where depending on the game.

Changing the maps to reflect Our new understanding of stars and star formation, would add nothing to the game, but would destroy decades of history written previously. If you want that, you are better off starting a new setting from scratch.

Traveller UWP is the same - as we learn something in the real world, a new author may go 'huh, this UWP for this planet isn't quite what i need, and i don't recall anyone else using this planet significantly, so.. we're just changing the UWP so I can write a cool story using this new thing we've learned.' And MongooseMatt (among others) is saying, that's ok, and is the kind of evolution that was always intended for Traveller.

For every UWP you change, you invalidate maps people may have paid money for. You never want to invalidate your previous setting products. If you need a planet with a UWP Code different than the one you are looking at? Switch to a system that matches what you need. I guarantee that there is one in one of the innumerable stars in Charted Space.

 

[MasterGwydion]

The Third Imperium of yore did not have personal energy screens, ion weapons, stored personality/memory wafers, makers and probably a lot more. Settings evolve over time.

I love having rules for them and I use them when I run Traveller games which are not in the known parts of Charted Space or in other universes. Charted Space has pretty much always had limitations on what kind of tech is out there. Jump Drives, not Hyperdrives, etc. This doesn't effect the rules, it just limits what is included in the "official" Charted Space.

Oh, and for new players that may not know, I just put Post-It Notes over the things that don't exist in the universe.

 

[Vormaerin]

I love having rules for them and I use them when I run Traveller games which are not in the known parts of Charted Space or in other universes. Charted Space has pretty much always had limitations on what kind of tech is out there. Jump Drives, not Hyperdrives, etc. This doesn't effect the rules, it just limits what is included in the "official" Charted Space.

Oh, and for new players that may not know, I just put Post-It Notes over the things that don't exist in the universe.

yeah, but personal energy screens were (imho, mistakenly) published in the The Third Imperium sourcebook for the Core. Lots of things can and should be in the Traveller Rulebook. Putting them in a Charted Space sourcebook is the gripe.

 

[Nelphine]

It shouldn't. That is poor editing. If you published a setting, you should not go and change something that is already published, except rules updates.

Changing the maps to reflect Our new understanding of stars and star formation, would add nothing to the game, but would destroy decades of history written previously. If you want that, you are better off starting a new setting from scratch.

For every UWP you change, you invalidate maps people may have paid money for. You never want to invalidate your previous setting products. If you need a planet with a UWP Code different than the one you are looking at? Switch to a system that matches what you need. I guarantee that there is one in one of the innumerable stars in Charted Space.

The general response here (which I know you disagree with) is 'no, this is how things like UWP have always been defined. When you purchase a given map, things may change in the future. We generally try to keep changes to a minimum, but, just like a specific gamemaster can decide something needs to change for their game, we can also decide something needs to change for Traveller.'

While you say that a setting 'should not go and change', Traveller, since day 1, has specifically said 'yes, a setting can change.' So, the response is claiming that your use of 'should' is inaccurate - instead, that is simply how you would like a setting to exist, but Traveller has specifically said that is not how it will exist (and MongooseMatt claims, and I agree with him, that virtually no setting ever has ever actually acted the way you suggest if the setting has lasted for a long time, further suggesting your use of 'should' is incorrect). This isn't something new that is being sprung, this is what has been here since day one.

Ok, edit complete.

 

[phavoc]

Those changes only occur as the timelime advances. Why should the UWPs change retroactively? The Travellermap is a snap shot of the universe at that specific point in time. It shouldn't change, unless the rules change and those old UWPs are no longer allowed, which is not the case here.

Data like that doesn't change for gaming - at least for Traveller it does not. For the past 3-4 decades nearly every version of Traveller has used, roughly, the same exact time period. It's a setting background and not really meant to change unless you advance the game time frame as well.

The 1248 materials assumed time moved on from the original dates, but mostly it's static.

UWP leaves a lot to be desired, and it's nothing more than a very high-level description. GMs should detail out the area they want the players to explore and adventure in. They can, if they want, use already generated data. But, as you've pointed out, the random generated data sometimes is bonkers. This is the area that detailed settings do much better (but consume more time and effort). You will find some of the supplements having very detailed info for specific areas, but nobody has tried to do the entire Imperium (or at least survived to share it).

 

[MongooseMatt]

Can you elaborate on this? If in the Dawn of the Third Imperium, a planetary code is one thing, should that code stay the same even during the 5th Frontier War, or should the code reflect what the planet is for that setting? Are codes static to a snapshot in time regardless of setting, or should codes be updated alongside the setting so they are accurate?

It would be lovely if everything could be updated, in real time, but there are certain issues there.

First, we publish books which, by their nature, are static.

Two, and this is a problem with any RPG (and miniatures game, for that matter) that has a 'meta' running in the background, not every group will be at the same place at the same time, and so information will not be correct for everyone everywhere.

The fuzziness we have been talking about is not just desirable from a creative standpoint (both of writers and Referees) but, to a degree, necessary.

And this is the thing about something as popular as Traveller - we have to try to cater to everyone and create a game & universe that all can find value in. Not all the pieces may fit precisely, but the overall picture is the place people want to spend their time.