UWP and the Imperial Population

[MasterGwydion]

This is a very good point. Once you start to use extended system generation you suddenly discover a whole lot of new problems to explain away

The problem with Traveller has been the same from the beginning. The system is not designed to worldbuild. It is designed to ram adventures down players throats. When Traveller came out, sandbox games weren't really a thing, just like Setting wasn't a thing originally. Traveller was a random generator pumping out adventure ideas and adventure hooks. That is all. It is our fault now, for wanting an actually fully-fleshed out RPG and not a "choose your own adventure" book. Nothing in Traveller that I have seen really gives rules for anything not directly related to PC activity, like what are the rules for rolling up NPCs? Do NPCs use Terms in their history? Every time I assume a rule that applies to PCs also applies to NPCs, I am told that those rules are for PCs only and NPCs work differently, but never anywhere do they tell Us how NPCs work differently, mechanically.

So, yeah. We can't even get to those "new" problems yet, since We can't even figure out what the damn UWP Pop Code means. The book says that Pop 3 is between 1,000 and 9,999 people. It doesn't say maybe. It states it as fact, but if you look through My previous threads on this forum, you will notice that every time I state that, I get told that I am wrong. That UWPs actually do not mean anything and therefore can be used to mean whatever you want them to mean.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I (and my players) decide what the UPP numbers mean as we explore the universe together.

If the value of the number 3 can change with no reason why, then it is useless. In Population, a 3 is supposed to mean between 1,000 and 9,999 sophont residents, yet often it does not.

 

[WHULorigan]

That's just the main planet.

Other planets, or asteroids, could be populated.

This is a very good point. Once you start to use extended system generation you suddenly discover a whole lot of new problems to explain away

I don;t think I ever replied to this. Yes there is an example, Craw in the Glisten subsector was used by the Keith brothers to guide a referee through interpreting the UPP. GDW JTAS 10.

Or they had read the Keith brothers article in GDW JTAS 10 and used the suggestions contained within.

My personal point of view is that the setting data provided is for referees to use and abuse as they see fit. I steer clear of supplements that seek to provide even capsule descriptions of every word in a sector, unless they contain other information that may be useful.

I (and my players) decide what the UPP numbers mean as we explore the universe together.

What if the UWP data is what the IISS published in its Second Survey Dataset (Publication Date 1065 - actual data somewhat older by time of compilation), by which time population (either colonists or "natives") from other non-mainworlds in-system had been relocated from those worlds to the mainworld (either as labor or for other reasons)? Was it considered sufficiently justified to alter the mainworld POP code? Are they considered medium-term transients? Resident population "In-System" while still not officially being included as permanent residents "On-World"?

 

[MasterGwydion]

What if the UWP data is what the IISS published in its Second Survey Dataset (Publication Date 1065 - actual data somewhat older by time of compilation), by which time population (either colonists or "natives") from other non-mainworlds in-system had been relocated from those worlds to the mainworld (either as labor or for other reasons)? Was it considered sufficiently justified to alter the mainworld POP code? Are they considered medium-term transients? Resident population "In-System" while still not officially being included as permanent residents "On-World"?

If this is the case, then how can it also be used as an out-of-game mechanic for things like Law Level? Tech Level? Trade Codes? Most of the World Builder's Handbook?

Economics in Traveller, per the WBH, are largely based off the Population UWP Code.

 

[WHULorigan]

If this is the case, then how can it also be used as an out-of-game mechanic for things like Law Level? Tech Level? Trade Codes? Most of the World Builder's Handbook?

Economics in Traveller, per the WBH, are largely based off the Population UWP Code.

(This is all just off-the-cuff, remember - I am just throwing it out there . . . )

In this situation, you would say that the published stats were as recorded in 1065 and use those values as recorded. But the situation on the ground has changed since then, and perhaps the people with the advantage (in trade, et al) are those who know what the real values are as compared to the published ones (since it is one small world outside Imperial borders in the Outrim, after all - easy to be overlooked). And in the suggestion I proposed above, the total system population is not altered, just the mainworld itself is increased (and perhaps another non-mainworld or two in-system are decreased). It might go unnoticed . . .

The thing would be to look and see by how much other values (i.e. TL, LL, TCs, etc) would in fact be altered (if at all), and see if any discrepancies can be worked into a recent history and evolved local situational description.

 

[MasterGwydion]

(This is all just off-the-cuff, remember - I am just throwing it out there . . . )

Totally! No worries.

In this situation, you would say that the published stats were as recorded in 1065 and use those values as recorded. But the situation on the ground has changed since then, and perhaps the people with the advantage (in trade, et al) are those who know what the real values are as compared to the published ones (since it is one small world outside Imperial borders in the Outrim, after all - easy to be overlooked). And in the suggestion I proposed above, the total system population is not altered, just the mainworld itself is increased (and perhaps another non-mainworld or two in-system are decreased). It might go unnoticed . . .

Ideally then, "they" should change the dates on the Travellermap to 1,065 instead of 1,105

The thing would be to look and see by how much other values (i.e. TL, LL, TCs, etc) would in fact be altered (if at all), and see if any discrepancies can be worked into a recent history and evolved local situational description.

If the UWP is one point lower than the actual population, this would raise both the Government Type and the LL by 1 point each. One point is also the difference between a world being classified as Hi, In, Ag, Ri, Lo, as well as Na and Ni. Then this affects the tables in the Trade chapter of the CRB, not only in what goods are available, but also quantities and passengers. If this change increased the LL by one as a result of the population increase, then it could go from being a Green world to an Amber world. Each one of these would have large effects on the planet and how it would be and could be used in game. It may also change other things that I have not thought of yet.

 

[Condottiere]

You have to write a gazetteer for each system, if not populated planet.

The Grand Duchy of Karamursel.

 

[rinku]

Then what is the definition of the Travellermap and UWPs? Why does the Travellermap have Gas Giants listed if there is no game benefit? Seems to be mor than just background color to Me? It literally tells you if you can do gas giant refueling or not. That seems to be a rules thing, not a background color thing.

Um, absence of a Gas Giant is totally a game benefit thing. It affects refuelling options. Been integral to mainworld generation since 1977.

Travellermap, while an amazing and convenient resource, tries to bring together too much at times. But I do not envy those trying to wrangle over forty years of data and more than seven editions of the game.

The *canon* is not fully consistent, and now and then gets changed. Personally, I prefer to use Supplement 3 as published, typos and all. It's not as it doesn't contain designed content (i.e. Sword Worlds were NOT rolled up randomly).

So you HAVE to make Referee decisions about it all. On a world by world basis if needs be. On a per campaign basis if you must.

 

[boggo2300]

If the value of the number 3 can change with no reason why, then it is useless. In Population, a 3 is supposed to mean between 1,000 and 9,999 sophont residents, yet often it does not.

it always does for me

 

[metlk]

The problem with Traveller has been the same from the beginning. The system is not designed to worldbuild. It is designed to ram adventures down players throats. When Traveller came out, sandbox games weren't really a thing, just like Setting wasn't a thing originally. Traveller was a random generator pumping out adventure ideas and adventure hooks. That is all. It is our fault now, for wanting an actually fully-fleshed out RPG and not a "choose your own adventure" book. Nothing in Traveller that I have seen really gives rules for anything not directly related to PC activity, like what are the rules for rolling up NPCs? Do NPCs use Terms in their history? Every time I assume a rule that applies to PCs also applies to NPCs, I am told that those rules are for PCs only and NPCs work differently, but never anywhere do they tell Us how NPCs work differently, mechanically.

So, yeah. We can't even get to those "new" problems yet, since We can't even figure out what the damn UWP Pop Code means. The book says that Pop 3 is between 1,000 and 9,999 people. It doesn't say maybe. It states it as fact, but if you look through My previous threads on this forum, you will notice that every time I state that, I get told that I am wrong. That UWPs actually do not mean anything and therefore can be used to mean whatever you want them to mean.

You present your argument as something you want an in-game explanation for, yet when many people providing many different in-game reasons on why a pop code isn't accurate, you jump to it needing to be an out-of-game reason (such as the idea that the map should change the date.) You've brought this discussion up many times, but it's really beginning in to sound like you're being argumentative just to be argumentative. There's a slew of in-game reasons for why they may not match, with many of those based on real-world examples. If you want an out-of-game reason, then it's simple. An author screwed up and it is what it is. It happens across all types of media and entertainment. That does not suddenly invalidate the population codes across the board. What answer are you wanting? Perhaps it might be more productive to work backwards from the answer you hope to get, and figure out how to get there (or not.)

 

[rinku]

I'd also argue thatTraveller was very much designed for worldbuilding from the very beginning. The UWP was always meant to be a starting point and inspiration for the Referee to work from.

 

[Condottiere]

Shorthand as to what to expect.

 

[MasterGwydion]

You present your argument as something you want an in-game explanation for, yet when many people providing many different in-game reasons on why a pop code isn't accurate, you jump to it needing to be an out-of-game reason (such as the idea that the map should change the date.) You've brought this discussion up many times, but it's really beginning in to sound like you're being argumentative just to be argumentative. There's a slew of in-game reasons for why they may not match, with many of those based on real-world examples. If you want an out-of-game reason, then it's simple. An author screwed up and it is what it is. It happens across all types of media and entertainment. That does not suddenly invalidate the population codes across the board. What answer are you wanting? Perhaps it might be more productive to work backwards from the answer you hope to get, and figure out how to get there (or not.)

Actually, what I asked, was that, if anyone was aware of a Cordan-type situation with the Pop Code versus the descriptive text within the Imperium.

I asked this to see if I had any basis for a follow-up question. If no planet like that existed, then the point would be moot.

If it does exist in Canon then the follow-up question was, "if the planet's UWP Pop Code says one number for population, but the descriptive text gives an even larger number for the population of an Imperial world, are those people, who were not counted in the Pop Code and therefore not counted by the IISS, Imperial Citizens?"

What I wanted to know was about strictly in-game stuff. None of My original post was a "rules" question.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I'd also argue thatTraveller was very much designed for worldbuilding from the very beginning. The UWP was always meant to be a starting point and inspiration for the Referee to work from.

My rebuttal would be that, "No. It was designed for adventure-building, not world-building" That is why We have no rules for how anyone does anything expect for the PCs.

 

[rinku]

My rebuttal would be that, "No. It was designed for adventure-building, not world-building" That is why We have no rules for how anyone does anything expect for the PCs.

Right.

We clearly have different needs in worldbuilding, MG. I wish you luck with your quest on being told how to do everything.

 

[phavoc]

Which is why My OP was asking if anyone knew of any situations like Cordan within the Imperium.

Right, but what happens when the UWP of an Imperial world says that there are between 10,000 and 99,999, but the descriptive texts says that is only 1% of the actual planetary population? Are the other 99% not Imperial Citizens?

People got off on the tangent about censuses (censsi?), but My question is specifically about the UWP. Who cares how the planetary governments do their censuses. What matters is the UWP number. In-game, that means that the IISS surveys say there are that many people on the world, not the planetary government. This is even more true outside of the Imperium. IISS maintains stealth scout ships for performing surveys where they are not welcome.

Like I keep saying, these two are not the same thing. UWP would (or should) cover entire population. A Census MAY cover the same, but they are distinctly different instruments with different purposes.

I don't think the IISS would bother with stealth scout ships for routine system surveys. That would be called 'spying'. Beyond that rough estimates would do just fine since all the statistics in a UWP are just bands within which there can be a great deal of variance.

 

[phavoc]

Or my personal point of view: whoever wrote the fluff for Corden didn't even bother to read the rules, and thus that fluff text is garbage and has no bearing on the ACUTAL Corden system, just a piece of Fan-Fic... Poor Fan-Fic, because the UWP POP code IS the ACTUAL Population of the world, as recorded by the IISS, not some ficticious number made up by numpties

LOL! Welcome to Traveller!

 

[boggo2300]

LOL! Welcome to Traveller!

Fluff text is fluff, if it contradicts something Crunchy, especially something as integral to the system as UWP then the fluff is wrong, every time.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Fluff text is fluff, if it contradicts something Crunchy, especially something as integral to the system as UWP then the fluff is wrong, every time.

Then some published adventures and adventure hooks no longer function, such as the Patron task for Cordan out of the Drinax books.

(Yes. I agree that is how it should be, but @MongooseMatt and Mongoose in general disagrees with us.)

 

[metlk]

Actually, what I asked, was that, if anyone was aware of a Cordan-type situation with the Pop Code versus the descriptive text within the Imperium.

I asked this to see if I had any basis for a follow-up question. If no planet like that existed, then the point would be moot.

If it does exist in Canon then the follow-up question was, "if the planet's UWP Pop Code says one number for population, but the descriptive text gives an even larger number for the population of an Imperial world, are those people, who were not counted in the Pop Code and therefore not counted by the IISS, Imperial Citizens?"

What I wanted to know was about strictly in-game stuff. None of My original post was a "rules" question.

Okay, so you are asking census-related question. The most logical in-game answer would be that the scout service does not count each individual when they do a survey. They just collect data provided to them by the local governments (or whoever is in charge) and in some cases, not every sophont is counted by that locality for reasons which may be left unanswered. They may not be Imperial Citizens per se, but rather counted by whatever metric the local government determined. I think expecting a scout ship to do a manual count of every sophont is a bit of a stretch when we're talking billions of sophonts across the galaxy. It would make much more sense that they are simply compiling data already gathered by others, and it is susceptible to error, intentional omission, or even malicious intent.