UWP and the Imperial Population

[WHULorigan]

Then who does the count? The individual planets or the IISS? If it is the individual planets, does that mean that planetary or balkanized governments decide who is a citizen of the Imperium and who is not or does the Imperial government determine that? All of the books say that the UWP of a world is determined by the IISS.

But I think the point is the population code is not a matter of "Imperial Citizenship", it is a matter of "permanent residency on-world". If the world is an Imperial member-world, then its permanent resident population are by definition "Imperial Citizens", being that they are citizens of the world.

Even if there is an odd cultural situation in which only certain "classes" or "castes" of people within a particular population of a world are considered "citizens" of that world by the local culture or government (say like Roman Citizenship within the Roman Republic and Empire prior to Emperor Caracalla - it was a privileged social position) - that would not necessarily have a bearing on any kind of concept of "Imperial Citizenship", or the IISS records, as the Imperium is largely indifferent to local laws, customs, and culture. And the IISS records in the Survey certainly extend to worlds well outside the Imperium, where nobody is an Imperial Citizen. And I would certainly think that the IISS does not have its "count" or "census" dictated to it by a member-world government.

So the intention certainly seems to be to record a census of the number of permanent or long-term on-world residents. If it does not, then the reason for that should first be determined as to whether it is simply an authorial change to the canonical data (as aggravating as that may be), and if it is not harmonizable, to make a fiat decision to go with one or the other dataset (and no I don't like that solution). Otherwise, the reason is to be found in-setting (and I unfortunately do not have a good explanation at the moment).

Perhaps, going off of my statement above about the IISS "not having its "count" or "census" dictated to it by a member-world government": is it possible (considering how the IISS has been used historically by the Imperial Government for Trade, Control, and Intelligence purposes, that the IISS has deliberately reported the figures the way they have for a political or punitive reason of some sort?

 

[Sigtrygg]

See the article "referee's guide to world building" in GDW JTAS 10 by J. Andrew and William H. Keith, it uses the Spinward Marches world of Craw/Glisten as an example...
the modern audience will not like it one bit.

The 7 million inhabitants are the descendants of human colonists of yore, while there is also a native race with a greater population used as slaves by the humans...

 

[phavoc]

Then who does the count? The individual planets or the IISS? If it is the individual planets, does that mean that planetary or balkanized governments decide who is a citizen of the Imperium and who is not or does the Imperial government determine that? All of the books say that the UWP of a world is determined by the IISS.

It would have to be done by the individual planet, and checked by others (not scout service). Since the Imperium is supposed to be like a confederation, some planets will chafe under Imperial rule, but are unable to do anything about it. Rebellions by individual worlds would tend to be crushed pretty fast. And conducting a census is NOT the same as defining Imperial citizenship. These two issues are totally unrelated to one another. A census counts populations and attempts to break them into statistical buckets - male, citizen, etc, etc. Your citizenship status has nothing to do with being counted and codified.

I'm sure there is an office within the Imperium charged to do this - it's a bureaucratic task. It would be like having the US Coast Guard performing the census every decade instead of the Census Dept (which is under the Department of Commerce - where most of the statistical agencies are that deal with the economy) . While any agency can get a sub-agency assigned to it (we are seeing things like student loans being transferred to the SBA in the US), it doesn't mean it's logical or will work well.

The books stated such a thing because they are selling game manuals, not actually having to design a workable governmental bureaucracy. Having been a member of said bureaucracy for part of my career I've seen a few of these things happen and end results of it.

The discussion is rather academic as it's pitting a gaming universe that has massive holes in it's logic and explanations to actual reality (and the realities we are talking about are also lacking some equivalency because their foundations are also not the same).

At the end of the day you can do it however you like to fit within the gaming universe. So long as there is some logic to the process then your way will fit within the Traveller way.

 

[Condottiere]

There are military and economic reasons to have records of planetary demographics, past, present, and future.

 

[phavoc]

The census in Australia is not voluntary, and is cross-referenced with the electoral rolls (being registered to vote is also compulsory)

This is a good example of a different system. While required by law in the US, enforcement is rare. It's done mostly by mail, so if you are traveling or transient the odds of being counted are low. The census bureau (in the US) will first build a database of what it thinks people are, based on a number of information sources, and then send out flyers, followed up by agents who are trying to get identified people to participate. Once the clock runs out on the data collection portion it's up to the census bureau to make tweaks to the data and then report on it so it can be officially be blessed. That's when all the fun starts as states bring out the knives to get their share of congressional seats and population-defined apportioned funds.

 

[phavoc]

There are military and economic reasons to have records of planetary demographics, past, present, and future.

At a macro level, yes. But not at the micro level for something as large as the Imperium.

 

[Condottiere]

You do want to know how much economic activity is going on, and what's your cut.

Divide that by the population, and you can figure out if the current planetary regime is pulling its weight.

 

[MasterGwydion]

But I think the point is the population code is not a matter of "Imperial Citizenship", it is a matter of "permanent residency on-world". If the world is an Imperial member-world, then its permanent resident population are by definition "Imperial Citizens", being that they are citizens of the world.

If they are not counted in that number, say because they are of a disfavored class, are they still Imperial Citizens? even if their Homeworld, which they live on, does not count them in the UWP?

Even if there is an odd cultural situation in which only certain "classes" or "castes" of people within a particular population of a world are considered "citizens" of that world by the local culture or government (say like Roman Citizenship within the Roman Republic and Empire prior to Emperor Caracalla - it was a privileged social position) - that would not necessarily have a bearing on any kind of concept of "Imperial Citizenship", or the IISS records, as the Imperium is largely indifferent to local laws, customs, and culture. And the IISS records in the Survey certainly extend to worlds well outside the Imperium, where nobody is an Imperial Citizen. And I would certainly think that the IISS does not have its "count" or "census" dictated to it by a member-world government.

This is even a larger problem outside of the Imperium with a world like Cordan. It flat-out states that the UWP Pop Code is only for the Baronial Households and not for the majority of the planetary population. Cordan isn't even an Imperial World, so why would the IISS only count the Baronial Households? Things like this should be exceptions, outliers. Something that was put in deliberately as a plothook, not just because of either lazy writing/editing or poor quality control.

 

[MasterGwydion]

It would have to be done by the individual planet, and checked by others (not scout service). Since the Imperium is supposed to be like a confederation, some planets will chafe under Imperial rule, but are unable to do anything about it. Rebellions by individual worlds would tend to be crushed pretty fast. And conducting a census is NOT the same as defining Imperial citizenship. These two issues are totally unrelated to one another. A census counts populations and attempts to break them into statistical buckets - male, citizen, etc, etc. Your citizenship status has nothing to do with being counted and codified.

I'm sure there is an office within the Imperium charged to do this - it's a bureaucratic task. It would be like having the US Coast Guard performing the census every decade instead of the Census Dept (which is under the Department of Commerce - where most of the statistical agencies are that deal with the economy) . While any agency can get a sub-agency assigned to it (we are seeing things like student loans being transferred to the SBA in the US), it doesn't mean it's logical or will work well.

The books stated such a thing because they are selling game manuals, not actually having to design a workable governmental bureaucracy. Having been a member of said bureaucracy for part of my career I've seen a few of these things happen and end results of it.

The discussion is rather academic as it's pitting a gaming universe that has massive holes in it's logic and explanations to actual reality (and the realities we are talking about are also lacking some equivalency because their foundations are also not the same).

At the end of the day you can do it however you like to fit within the gaming universe. So long as there is some logic to the process then your way will fit within the Traveller way.

Article 1, Paragraph 5 of the Warrant of Restoration

"The Imperium considers as citizens any living recognized sentient creature native to or naturalized by a member world of the Imperium, or any living recognized sentient creature swearing fealty to the Imperium directly. No immunity, protection, right, or privilege granted by the Imperium to a Citizen of the Imperium may be abridged or denied by any member world."

 

[Sigtrygg]

Ignore that bit of fanon made canon, it is contradicted many times over by the setting "reality" - if not ignore then accept that the Imperium itself takes no notice of it and never did.

"Seven million humans make up the population reflected in the planetary profile, but 7 million is an awfully small number of people to support a budding industrial revolution. In order to give us a sufficient agrarian base on which to build, we will postulate a sizable (though rather uncertain) population of intelligent, indigenous natives as well. We'll sketch them rather briefly: roughly humanoid. adapted to life on Craw's rugged outback, with an average tech level no greater than one, except for those living closer to humans, who enjoy a slightly higher technology.
Many of these primitive locals, being adapted to the planet's oxygen poor atmosphere, will be used for heavy labor by the humans. In this case, slaves and wandering nomadic natives simply aren't going to be counted as part of the population."

 

[MasterGwydion]

Ignore that bit of fanon made canon, it is contradicted many times over by the setting "reality" - if not ignore then accept that the Imperium itself takes no notice of it and never did.

"Seven million humans make up the population reflected in the planetary profile, but 7 million is an awfully small number of people to support a budding industrial revolution. In order to give us a sufficient agrarian base on which to build, we will postulate a sizable (though rather uncertain) population of intelligent, indigenous natives as well. We'll sketch them rather briefly: roughly humanoid. adapted to life on Craw's rugged outback, with an average tech level no greater than one, except for those living closer to humans, who enjoy a slightly higher technology.
Many of these primitive locals, being adapted to the planet's oxygen poor atmosphere, will be used for heavy labor by the humans. In this case, slaves and wandering nomadic natives simply aren't going to be counted as part of the population."

So, in other words, every Population UWP in the entire game is now null and void as a measure of planetary population? Then what the hell is the point of having a Population UWP Number?

 

[WHULorigan]

Article 1, Paragraph 5 of the Warrant of Restoration

"The Imperium considers as citizens any living recognized sentient creature native to or naturalized by a member world of the Imperium, or any living recognized sentient creature swearing fealty to the Imperium directly. No immunity, protection, right, or privilege granted by the Imperium to a Citizen of the Imperium may be abridged or denied by any member world."

Ignore that bit of fanon made canon, it is contradicted many times over by the setting "reality" - if not ignore then accept that the Imperium itself takes no notice of it and never did.

Or possibly that was the "official" concept/propaganda (call it what you will) that was the case at the Founding, when the Sylean Federation and Vilani Confederation Worlds were brought together to establish the fledgling Third Imperium, and may still have been what was espoused to early worlds to convince them to join the economic empire (prior to the employment of sanctions or force), but later as the Imperium became established, became a piece of "propaganda on paper" to justify itself while increasingly acting as it chose to best further its own interests (until all pretense was finally dropped under the Lentuli Dynasty and the Pacification Campaigns).

"Seven million humans make up the population reflected in the planetary profile, but 7 million is an awfully small number of people to support a budding industrial revolution. In order to give us a sufficient agrarian base on which to build, we will postulate a sizable (though rather uncertain) population of intelligent, indigenous natives as well. We'll sketch them rather briefly: roughly humanoid. adapted to life on Craw's rugged outback, with an average tech level no greater than one, except for those living closer to humans, who enjoy a slightly higher technology.
Many of these primitive locals, being adapted to the planet's oxygen poor atmosphere, will be used for heavy labor by the humans. In this case, slaves and wandering nomadic natives simply aren't going to be counted as part of the population."

And it may be that over time, what began as a relatively small and inconsequential stratum of forced labor grew and expanded as profits and settlement increased, until the "sizable but uncertain-sized population of intelligent, indigenous natives" became an immense forced labor group, but records conveniently never caught up to reality, and outsiders really have no idea of the actual scope of the institution.

 

[WHULorigan]

If they are not counted in that number, say because they are of a disfavored class, are they still Imperial Citizens? even if their Homeworld, which they live on, does not count them in the UWP?

My impression is that the IISS wants accurate records (for its own purposes, if nothing else). How much of that accurate information it shares publicly would probably depend on whether or not the Imperium had something that it did not want to disclose.

This is even a larger problem outside of the Imperium with a world like Cordan. It flat-out states that the UWP Pop Code is only for the Baronial Households and not for the majority of the planetary population. Cordan isn't even an Imperial World, so why would the IISS only count the Baronial Households? Things like this should be exceptions, outliers. Something that was put in deliberately as a plothook, not just because of either lazy writing/editing or poor quality control.

I tend to agree. I would hope that an author would respect the setting and not arbitrarily change existing data (or demonstrate that he does not understand how to read the data, or was sloppy). So I would lean toward an in-setting explanation. But that would necessarily imply that the Sociological-UWP values are Setting-viewpoint, and not Authorial-viewpoint.

 

[WHULorigan]

So, in other words, every Population UWP in the entire game is now null and void as a measure of planetary population? Then what the hell is the point of having a Population UWP Number?

Well, in one sense it really depends on how you view and/or prefer to have your Game Setting / Universe:

1. In the early days of Traveller when not much was detailed except in broad overview in a scattering of Library Data entries, the setting was wide open as a sandbox, and referees could pretty well do almost anything: a few canonical descriptions of things here and there to guide the imagination for feel and flavor and a lot of fairly bland alphanumeric strings waiting to be given definition and filled in by a GM. It also led to an excitement any time a new published sector or region came out, as it was fresh, never before seen material with its own peculiar flavor. Was the data accurate? Was it out of date? Was it propaganda? Did it deviate from what was expected due to viewpoint and perspective, etc?
   • - This was really what those UWPs were designed for initially - springboards for creativity and imagination from a bit of very basic info to guide the thought processes. (That is why some GMs still like the old "uncorrected/unmodified" UWPs, some of which really seemed whacky, but yet required a GM to think outside the box creatively in order to explain them.
     
2. Modern Traveller audiences have had decades of game development over multiple editions and even companies publishing for the setting, leading to almost every nook and cranny of Charted Space having some degree of development and standard description detailed somewhere, some regions in great detail. This has led to an expectation that everything in Charted Space be highly detailed and well-integrated, with very consistent and well-thought-out explanations for how everything interrelates and works over vast regions and in small detail.
   • While this perspective is understandable and what has come to be expected in the modern gaming community, it sometimes leads to conundrums with the existing data due to the sheer volume of information and unfortunately can sometimes put a straight-jacket on GM or developer creativity. Many of the mechanics peculiar to Traveller were never intended to be monolithic in their interpretation to begin with - in fact, the UWP was initially created so that it could easily be input into one of the basic DOS-based computer databases of the era in which it was invented. As a result, sometimes a simple character string will get used to oversimplify what can (and perhaps should) be a much more complex series of situations, world-to-world, (lest they all start to begin to look bland and the same).

Those are just my thoughts on the issue. I understand the complaint about the UWP digit seeming to have no relevance to the actual situation with no clear explainable reason why, but the original UWPs (especially the bizarre ones) were meant to be a spur to creativity in trying to explain their existence, and not an error to be corrected. It took me a long time to figure that out.

 

[Condottiere]

If we take the Confederation as an example, Solomani Security definitely wants to know who's on the planet, and their genetic make up.

If only to spot Imperium agents and spies.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Good luck with that when the majority of Confederation polities and worlds couldn't care less about SolSec or the Party.

 

[Condottiere]

Going by the pseudo Communistic experience, it's quite possible, with minimal interference, and financial incentives.

 

[Sigtrygg]

There is no pseudo communism - the confederation is made up of polities that agreed to trade with the Third Imperium nearly a thousand years ago, and when Imperial nobles declared an autonamous Solomani state ignored that as well.

Imperial propaganda is that SolSec is everywhere, that the Solomani Movement and Solomani Party are in control of the Solomani; the various terran polities that can trace their ancestry back to the ISW era laugh this off. Sylean nobles cosplaying Solomani supremacists are not worth giving the time of day to.

Confederation states continue to trade with each other, with the Imperium, with the Aslan, with the Hive Federation, and continue to explore to rimward - regardless of the SolSec LARPers.

 

[Condottiere]

One party state?

Modern surveillance equipment?

Artificial intelligence prediction?

Trade is encouraged, except possibly by the hardliners.

Whether it's intended or not, the Confederation bears an awful resemblance to the Chinese Mainland.

 

[WHULorigan]

The thing about the Solomani is that they are a Confederation. The Dingir League, Easter Concord, Old Earth Union, etc., were all independent polities that joined the Imperium freely at different times over the course of the 5th-6th Centuries Imperial. The rise of Vilani power at the Imperial Court in the late 7th-early 8th Century that so offended certain Sylean-Solomani elements of the Nobility either may or may not have found resonance with some elements of the former Rimward polities and its former member and independent worlds. Others could have probably not cared less, having had little or nothing to do with the Vilani for a long time.

Even so, Sylean-Solomani Nobles (and Rimward Cultures) in 704 at the time of the establishment of the SAR would likely have had time to evolve and change by the time reactionary elements declared the independent Confederation in 871. And why a Confederation in the first place (not only of worlds but also of subordinate multiworld member-polities) if they were so unified in viewpoint and racial purpose? And why is the Solomani Party so factionalized almost 240 years later, not even agreeing on a common defining and unifying vision for what the Party promotes?

SolSec and the Party and the Movement may be a thing, but it seems definitely to be a thing belonging to a certain niche demographic among the Solomani among certain factions of those holding power at the interstellar level and those they can co-opt among local aspiring "wannabes". The strength of the Movement within the Party or Governance of the Solomani likely waxes and wanes among the elites depending upon the era; the member polities, worlds, and polity/world-citizens of a confederation need not necessarily care at all about the Confederation Organization elites' personal ideas and motivations, as long as they are not interfered with too much (and the "independent-minded Solomani" get it in their heads to be even more "independent-minded" yet once again - and get rid of the Confederation Organization itself).

The Imperium likely exaggerates all of this in its own political propaganda, painting the Confederation as far more monolithic than it actually is, in fact (and therefore depicted as far more of a perceived threat).