Unarmed parry

PhilHibbs

Mongoose
I tried to find the rules about unarmed combat and parrying, but failed.

The creature attribute "formidable natural weapons" implies the existence of a rule saying that natural weapons can't parry actual weapons. But then, when does the "take weapon (unarmed only)" CA happen? Only on a failed attack?

I allowed my player to roll Unarmed parry against a failed Dagger attack, and he took the guy's dagger. I think that's how it's supposed to be used. If the dagger attack had succeeded, and the parry had been a normal success, would that have just been like a dagger attack to the parrying arm, since he doesn't have Formidable Natural Weapons? As I said earlier, I cannot find a rule that says anything about parrying weapons with Unarmed.

...again as with my last thread, I seem to remember this coming up before but the search reveals nothing. Is search broken? I couldn't find another thread the other day that I was 100% sure I had the right term for.
 
PhilHibbs said:
I tried to find the rules about unarmed combat and parrying, but failed.

The creature attribute "formidable natural weapons" implies the existence of a rule saying that natural weapons can't parry actual weapons. But then, when does the "take weapon (unarmed only)" CA happen? Only on a failed attack?

I allowed my player to roll Unarmed parry against a failed Dagger attack, and he took the guy's dagger. I think that's how it's supposed to be used. If the dagger attack had succeeded, and the parry had been a normal success, would that have just been like a dagger attack to the parrying arm, since he doesn't have Formidable Natural Weapons? As I said earlier, I cannot find a rule that says anything about parrying weapons with Unarmed.

...again as with my last thread, I seem to remember this coming up before but the search reveals nothing. Is search broken? I couldn't find another thread the other day that I was 100% sure I had the right term for.

I find it pretty weird as well, but I generally regard the formidable natural weapons more as a thing for creatures with claws or bites that could otherwise not be used to parry. I find it perfectly reasonable to count a fist as a tiny weapon meaning that in most cases it would be receiving full damage. However it would still prevent your opponent from getting CMs. And in a dagger fight I find it perfectly believable and cinematic that you would attempt to grab your opponents hand and wrestle the dagger from it if you are unarmed.
 
PhilHibbs said:
I tried to find the rules about unarmed combat and parrying, but failed.

The creature attribute "formidable natural weapons" implies the existence of a rule saying that natural weapons can't parry actual weapons. But then, when does the "take weapon (unarmed only)" CA happen? Only on a failed attack?

I allowed my player to roll Unarmed parry against a failed Dagger attack, and he took the guy's dagger. I think that's how it's supposed to be used. If the dagger attack had succeeded, and the parry had been a normal success, would that have just been like a dagger attack to the parrying arm, since he doesn't have Formidable Natural Weapons? As I said earlier, I cannot find a rule that says anything about parrying weapons with Unarmed.

...again as with my last thread, I seem to remember this coming up before but the search reveals nothing. Is search broken? I couldn't find another thread the other day that I was 100% sure I had the right term for.
Search broken?
I also had problems finding things older than two or three months. Didn't Mongoose recently switch forum software? Maybe that has something to do with it.

Parrying with Unarmed
I searched the PDFs of the RQ2 core rulebook, Monster Coliseum, Arms & Equipment, Wraith Recon and Age of Treason. The only thing I found was on page 99 in the core rulebook, in the combat example, "Lacking any shield Edric attempts to parry with his Unarmed combat skill". Unfortunately, he failed so we are not enlightened as to how parrying a weapon with Unarmed works. It does imply that you can do so. The trollkin was attacking with his buckler.

I think it should work like parrying using any other combat style. For humans, unarmed combat is size Small (pg85). So if you parry a small weapon, you stop all the damage. If you parry a medium weapon, you stop half the damage. The half that gets through hits whatever location is determined randomly or by Choose Location CM. Anything larger you can't parry unless you get a CM and choose Enhance Parry.

I don't think an unarmed parry should be viewed as imposing your arm against the edge of a blade or taking the brunt of a blow from a club on the arm. Rather, it represents that you managed to turn the blow aside somehow, maybe knocked the side or haft of weapon or the arm of the wielder so the blow didn't strike true or at all.

I suppose you do have to declare what body part you are going to parry with. If attacker gets a CM, they might want to choose Damage Weapon and I would rule that is the parrying body part.
 
Titus said:
I don't think an unarmed parry should be viewed as imposing your arm against the edge of a blade or taking the brunt of a blow from a club on the arm. Rather, it represents that you managed to turn the blow aside somehow, maybe knocked the side or haft of weapon or the arm of the wielder so the blow didn't strike true or at all.

I suppose you do have to declare what body part you are going to parry with. If attacker gets a CM, they might want to choose Damage Weapon and I would rule that is the parrying body part.

Hmm, I kinda like this. I am still processing it but it does make some sense and also allows for "Ninja-style" actions.

- Dan
 
Titus said:
If attacker gets a CM, they might want to choose Damage Weapon and I would rule that is the parrying body part.

Choose Location is more flexible than Damage Weapon - you can always choose to damage the parrying arm if that is the best locaton to damage.
 
PhilHibbs said:
Titus said:
If attacker gets a CM, they might want to choose Damage Weapon and I would rule that is the parrying body part.

Choose Location is more flexible than Damage Weapon - you can always choose to damage the parrying arm if that is the best locaton to damage.

Well if you chose damage weapon then you would do that as well as normal damage. You might even roll the parrying location randomly as well.
 
Deleriad said:
Well if you chose damage weapon then you would do that as well as normal damage. You might even roll the parrying location randomly as well.
Really? I assumed it was instead of normal damage.
 
PhilHibbs said:
Deleriad said:
Well if you chose damage weapon then you would do that as well as normal damage. You might even roll the parrying location randomly as well.
Really? I assumed it was instead of normal damage.

Nope, it's in addition too. Otherwise it would say "do damage to a weapon instead of..."

That's why the RQII example of combat shows a person being disarmed and taking damage at the same time.
 
Deleriad said:
PhilHibbs said:
Deleriad said:
Well if you chose damage weapon then you would do that as well as normal damage. You might even roll the parrying location randomly as well.
Really? I assumed it was instead of normal damage.

Nope, it's in addition too. Otherwise it would say "do damage to a weapon instead of..."

That's why the RQII example of combat shows a person being disarmed and taking damage at the same time.

I've always thought that damage weapon was special in this case. I can't find the rules to back it up though.
That is quite awesome and clearly tells us what formidable natural weapons should do: Instead of taking damage to the location you are parrying with, you take damage to your natural weapons. (these would then need AP & HP, but I think that's quite easy to make up on the spot, most of them being 4/5 or something similar.)
 
Mixster said:
I've always thought that damage weapon was special in this case. I can't find the rules to back it up though.
That is quite awesome and clearly tells us what formidable natural weapons should do: Instead of taking damage to the location you are parrying with, you take damage to your natural weapons. (these would then need AP & HP, but I think that's quite easy to make up on the spot, most of them being 4/5 or something similar.)

Except that most natural weapons simply state AP/HP as "per arm" or "per head" etc.

- Dan
 
Dan True said:
Except that most natural weapons simply state AP/HP as "per arm" or "per head" etc.

- Dan

So you'd allow a warrior fighting against a foe with formidable natural weapons to double his damage with the Damage Weapon CM?
 
Mixster said:
Dan True said:
Except that most natural weapons simply state AP/HP as "per arm" or "per head" etc.

- Dan

So you'd allow a warrior fighting against a foe with formidable natural weapons to double his damage with the Damage Weapon CM?

No, I'd say "he doesn't have a weapon so you cannot use damage weapon". If for some reason damage weapon was automatic or something like that, I'd say it was the same as Choose Location(Arm) or (Head).

- Dan
 
Dan True said:
No, I'd say "he doesn't have a weapon so you cannot use damage weapon". If for some reason damage weapon was automatic or something like that, I'd say it was the same as Choose Location(Arm) or (Head).

- Dan
Why do they then have AP/HP if they aren't needed?

So what happens if Adam (armed with a dagger) attacks Bob (armed with his fists), and both succeed?
Does Bob suffer full damage to his arm?
Does he suffer half damage to a location randomly determined?
What if Adam generates a CM (through a Critical or Spirit Magic), and takes Choose location at the arm, does he generate full damage (as he would if the opponent was wielding a weapon and he chose damage weapon) or half damage (as with normal rules for parrying and choosing location)? (Or full damage to the arm with damage weapon and half damage to a random location?)
And lastly, how does the formidable natural weapons trait affect all this?
 
Mixster said:
Dan True said:
No, I'd say "he doesn't have a weapon so you cannot use damage weapon". If for some reason damage weapon was automatic or something like that, I'd say it was the same as Choose Location(Arm) or (Head).

- Dan
Why do they then have AP/HP if they aren't needed?

So what happens if Adam (armed with a dagger) attacks Bob (armed with his fists), and both succeed?
Does Bob suffer full damage to his arm?
Does he suffer half damage to a location randomly determined?
What if Adam generates a CM (through a Critical or Spirit Magic), and takes Choose location at the arm, does he generate full damage (as he would if the opponent was wielding a weapon and he chose damage weapon) or half damage (as with normal rules for parrying and choosing location)? (Or full damage to the arm with damage weapon and half damage to a random location?)
And lastly, how does the formidable natural weapons trait affect all this?
Dan's MRQ2/Legend may vary, but I would allow a Damage Weapon CM against a natural weapon.

Why do they then have AP/HP if they aren't needed?
They are needed because the opponent may choose a Damage Weapon CM and that natural weapon would suffer the damage. Frex - The lion makes a clumsy attack with its claw and misses, but defender successfully parries. The defender could try to injure the lion's leg and maybe discourage it by choosing a Damage Weapon CM.

So what happens if Adam (armed with a dagger) attacks Bob (armed with his fists), and both succeed?
Both are small size, so Bob stops the damage completely.

Does Bob suffer full damage to his arm?
No, Bob stopped the damage.

Does he suffer half damage to a location randomly determined?
No, because the weapons are both small and all damage was stopped.

What if Adam generates a CM (through a Critical or Spirit Magic), and takes Choose location at the arm, does he generate full damage (as he would if the opponent was wielding a weapon and he chose damage weapon) or half damage (as with normal rules for parrying and choosing location)? (Or full damage to the arm with damage weapon and half damage to a random location?)
If Adam makes the above choice, then he causes no damage since the Bob stopped the damage with his successful parry. But, if Adam chooses Damage Weapon as his CM, he can hurt the body part Bob parried with. The Damage Weapon CM would roll full damage as normal for this CM.

If Adam shows up the next time with a shortsword, then this is how it would play out.

So what happens if Adam (armed with a shortsword) attacks Bob (armed with his fists), and both succeed?
Shortsword is size Medium and unarmed is size Small, so Bob blocks half the damage and the remainder is applied against a random location.

Does Bob suffer full damage to his arm?
No, Bob stopped half the damage. His arm will only be hurt if it is the random location.

Does he suffer half damage to a location randomly determined?
Yes.

What if Adam generates a CM (through a Critical or Spirit Magic), and takes Choose location at the arm, does he generate full damage (as he would if the opponent was wielding a weapon and he chose damage weapon) or half damage (as with normal rules for parrying and choosing location)? (Or full damage to the arm with damage weapon and half damage to a random location?)
If Adam makes the above choice, then he causes half damage to the arm since Bob stopped half the damage with his successful parry. But, if Adam chooses Damage Weapon as his CM, he can hurt the body part Bob parried with, and he might get lucky and roll that as the random hit location, too. In this case, the Damage Weapon CM would roll full damage as normal for this CM and the random hit location would take the half damage hit because of the successful parry.

And lastly, how does the formidable natural weapons trait affect all this?
Since Formidable Natural Weapons are allowed to parry weapon attacks, I don't think this changes anything. This seems to only set them apart from normal natural weapons which can not parry weapon attacks. If a Formidable Natural Weapon is used to attack or parry and the opponent chooses a Damage Weapon CM, that body part suffers the resulting damage.
 
Titus said:
And lastly, how does the formidable natural weapons trait affect all this?
Since Formidable Natural Weapons are allowed to parry weapon attacks, I don't think this changes anything. This seems to only set them apart from normal natural weapons which can not parry weapon attacks. If a Formidable Natural Weapon is used to attack or parry and the opponent chooses a Damage Weapon CM, that body part suffers the resulting damage.
I like the rest of your post, and thanks for pointing out that there is no size difference between a dagger and a fist. However, the above answer got me thinking, what does formidable natural weapons do?
It says it allows you to parry weapon attacks, but anyone can do that with unarmed. Is the only thing it does allow a creature to parry with it's claw skill instead of its' unarmed skill?
 
Mixster said:
It says it allows you to parry weapon attacks, but anyone can do that with unarmed. Is the only thing it does allow a creature to parry with it's claw skill instead of its' unarmed skill?
Creatures shouldn't have "unarmed" skill, and they shouldn't have separate "Claw" and "Bite" skills, they should just have one "Lion", "Snake", "Scorpion", or "Wombat" combat style.

"Lets see your Tiger-Crane style match my Wombat style!"
- Mai Pei

Titus said:
And lastly, how does the formidable natural weapons trait affect all this?
Since Formidable Natural Weapons are allowed to parry weapon attacks, I don't think this changes anything.
So, you're saying that humans count as having Formidable Natural Weapons?
 
PhilHibbs said:
Mixster said:
It says it allows you to parry weapon attacks, but anyone can do that with unarmed. Is the only thing it does allow a creature to parry with it's claw skill instead of its' unarmed skill?
Creatures shouldn't have "unarmed" skill, and they shouldn't have separate "Claw" and "Bite" skills, they should just have one "Lion", "Snake", "Scorpion", or "Wombat" combat style.

"Lets see your Tiger-Crane style match my Wombat style!"
- Mai Pei
It does seem a little strange in light of combat styles in some settings lumping a bunch of different weapons into one style, but I suppose a lion might have a bite style and a claw style. Probably there for flavor and maybe to show the preferred attacks.
PhilHibbs said:
Titus said:
And lastly, how does the formidable natural weapons trait affect all this?
Since Formidable Natural Weapons are allowed to parry weapon attacks, I don't think this changes anything.
So, you're saying that humans count as having Formidable Natural Weapons?
Ummmm, Maaaybe? The formidable natural weapon is the brain? :wink:

Actually, I think Unarmed is a combat style and the weapon is the person's body in whatever fashion they use it. Human unarmed combat is listed in the size category descriptions for weapons and in the reach categories (pg 85). If you aren't very good at Unarmed combat style, you probably will get hurt trying to parry weapons.

The fixed INT creatures without the Formidable Natural Weapons trait won't try to parry.
Any non-fixed INT creature with Unarmed as a skill could try to parry with it.
If a fixed INT creature actually had Unarmed as a skill (combat style), then they can do so, too.

So I guess maybe the answer to your question should have been, no, humans do not have Formidable Natural Weapons. But the unarmed skill (combat style) allows you to parry as if you did have them.
 
Titus said:
Ummmm, Maaaybe? The formidable natural weapon is the brain? :wink:
"Denning and Lister must face the Beast, armed only with their brains!"
("Well my brain missed, Denning - throw yours.")
 
sdavies2720 said:
Titus said:
Ummmm, Maaaybe? The formidable natural weapon is the brain? :wink:
"Denning and Lister must face the Beast, armed only with their brains!"
("Well my brain missed, Denning - throw yours.")
Wat?
killyouwithmybrain.jpg
 
I'd say that anyone who is trained in unarmed martial arms gets the Formidable Natural Weapons as a by-product of their training.
 
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