Can you acquire gear at a higher TL on higher TL worlds?

[Thisdan]

Hi all, again I need some feedback on an issue.
Is the tech level of gear without different TL categories, e.g. a personal mediscanner, always the same (12 in this case) or can you acquire it at a higher TL on a higher TL world?
One of my players quoted Core Rule Book 2022 page 97: You should note that items are available for severalTech Levels after they first appear but it is often quitehard to find a low-tech item on a high-tech world (fewTL13 spacefaring civilisations are going to produce alot of crossbows or backpack radios).
He argues that it means that it would then be of a higher level if bought on TL 14 worlds.

This is especially relevant when it come to EMP or smart weapons.

 

[Saladman]

... quoted Core Rule Book 2022 page 97: You should note that items are available for several Tech Levels after they first appear but it is often quite hard to find a low-tech item on a high-tech world (few TL13 spacefaring civilisations are going to produce a lot of crossbows or backpack radios).

I read this as meaning only that items are available as they are for several TLs afterwards, not that they are also automatically upgraded. So you'd find a TL 12 mediscanner on a TL 14 world (because they can still use it), but not on a hypothetical TL 20 world (as they've got something better now, and can't be bothered keeping them around). (This would go better with a lower TL item as an example, but I'm too lazy to look one up, and you see what I'm getting at.)

Note also the TL break points on items like binoculars, medikits and more suggest they're upgraded at discrete intervals rather than at each TL. (Mechanically anyway; maybe a TL 7 binoculars is rubber cased and plastic lenses instead of metal and glass, but it doesn't get any pluses over the TL 3 until you find a TL 8 model.)

You might separately choose to have things work the way your player wants, but the text he's chosen doesn't support it, and I wouldn't do so myself just because someone was rules lawyering me for it.

 

[ottarrus]

Short answer, yes.
Longer answer, it depends.
Availability is a balance between the TL, Starport, Pop, and LL of the world you're buying at. If it's a major trade hub [A or B port, High Pop, TL A+, and on an XBoat route] the odds are a PC will find what they're looking for in the Startown district or within the extrality zone of the Starport itself.
BUT high tech goods are always sold at a premium unless you go to the manufacturing source.
And, of course, some things will always be illegal. Examples in the Imperium include:
- Psi drugs
- Slaves/Indentured workers
- WMDs [ANY radiological weapon, including FGMPs are always illegal in private hands]
- PGMPs
- Certain cybernetics [assassin lasers in your arm, etc.]

It is a YTU decision as to what requires a license. IMTU, the following items require a license or bonding:
- Battle Dress armors
- Military-issue firearms [note that mustering out with a weapon provides a license to own it, subject to local laws] Examples of these include Gauss rifles, Laser rifles, grenade launchers, etc.
- Explosives of any sort
- Vehicle mounted heavy weaponry.

 

[Arkathan]

Hi all, again I need some feedback on an issue.
Is the tech level of gear without different TL categories, e.g. a personal mediscanner, always the same (12 in this case) or can you acquire it at a higher TL on a higher TL world?

So based on the rulebook quote, the referee has all the leeway you want to handle that situation.
If you are old enough, you might remember when handheld calculators that did only basic math, no algebra and no SqRt were $50 or more and would not fit in your pocket. The four to eight AA batteries might last a month if you were lucky, but the LEDs were easy to read in the dark... and made a great battery indicator. Now you can get them for a dollar, they fit easily in a pocket and the battery lasts a few years. That is an example of a lower tech item being available at a higher tech. As a general rule, I use HG enhancements. Cheaper, lighter or with a free add on per tech level, limit three.
Now weapons are a special issue. Someone will pay a premium to get a higher TL weapon on a lower TL world, and people will pay normal price for a quality Autopistol regardless of the world being higher tech. Same with ammo, but any on-world manufacturer is making more profit on those lower tech items since they are cheaper to produce (same stats, advanced materials etc).

 

[Geir]

The Central Supply Catalogue 2023 update expands on the proto-retro-tech rules in general (p. 10-11) and more so for portable computers (p. 67).
Which is funny, since I'm starting to work on an updated Sky Raiders trilogy. From the original (1981):

The PORTABLE COMPUTER listed with the equipment is a self-contained computer designed for use in the field. The unit in question, the Halliers Mark III Field Computer, features excellent data storage and retrieval capabilities. A standard library program is central to the unit. It is carried as a backpack, and is rather bulky due to the need for an internal power source. Players using Book 4, Mercenary, may use this unit as a Map Box in addition to the Library program. Service life: 500 hours of continuous use. Weight: 25 kg. Base Price (includes library program): Cr 500,000.

This is a TL12 item...
To be fair, 500 hours is pretty good battery life.

 

[Annatar Giftbringer]

I would say that an item manufactured at a high TL world is at least in some ways different than a low TL equiv.

Could be material, construction method… if it’s enough to count as higher TL I wouldn’t know (like armour negating the Smart DM) but CSC Update p.178 does say this regarding special ammo:

To use a particular modification, the weapon firing it must be manufactured at a Tech Level matching or higher than the listed Tech Level of the ammunition type.

 

[Condottiere]

A pickaxe made out of bonded superdense and with a plastic handle.

It's a question of cost, that includes what's most convenient for the manufacturer to acquire, and what the consumer will accept.

 

[Condottiere]

Depends on incentives.

If you need to bolster up your resume, and the money isn't yours, you can start a high speed train network in your province.

 

[Frank Beans]

Please refer to page 11 of the 2023 CSC. The item produced at a higher level may be smaller and cheaper, but will always be considered to have been produced at its actual tech level. This implies by the example on page 11 of the 2023 CSC about this that the item become the tech level it was produced at for consideration as to the effect of EMP and other tech level dependent things, such as it needs repair parts of the tech level it actually was produced at.

 

[Thisdan]

Thanks for the feedback! As a compromise I think that I will allow the material to be better, more durable etc. and make the items smaller and last longer.
The CRC 2023 explicitely refers to computers and electronic devices. So I tend to rule that weapons and armor are not higher TL and therefore are still affected by smart weapons and EMP as per their TL original entry.
On the other hand that feels a little less Sci Fi to me as it is more rules driven than flavor driven. Hard decision but I have some guys that I feel are going to abuse this too much otherwise with TL 15 EMP grenades that shut down everything...

 

[Frank Beans]

(This is all based on current versions of the MGT2 Core/Highguard/CSC books as I understand them, I expect I am wrong about most of this)

A good, in universe, rule of thumb is that weapons above tech 12 are quite rare. The Imperial Army standard and Imperial starport standard is TL12. This is what make the Emperor's Marines so scary as they drop on you with TL15 equipment. This is roughly the same as the United States Marine Corps today vs the German Army of WWI. Also remember that even if the players get their hands on some TL15 equipment, they need to have a TL15 workshop to maintain it and that workshop needs TL15 repair supplies. The replicator in the workshop can only make items 2 tech levels lower then it, and even then, needs TL15 materials to do so. I guess you could let your player get ahold of a TL15 factory. There is a good chance that if they start cranking out for sale weapons above TL12, the 208th fleet will show up and the 3951st Regiment of the Emperor's Own will be dropping by to reenact the Karin Pacification on your factory.

 

[phavoc]

Hi all, again I need some feedback on an issue.
Is the tech level of gear without different TL categories, e.g. a personal mediscanner, always the same (12 in this case) or can you acquire it at a higher TL on a higher TL world?
One of my players quoted Core Rule Book 2022 page 97: You should note that items are available for severalTech Levels after they first appear but it is often quitehard to find a low-tech item on a high-tech world (fewTL13 spacefaring civilisations are going to produce alot of crossbows or backpack radios).
He argues that it means that it would then be of a higher level if bought on TL 14 worlds.

This is especially relevant when it come to EMP or smart weapons.

Absolutely. I can go to Ethiopia and buy an iPhone. Might be used... might be new - but it's definitely not produced locally. The rich and connected are always going to have access to the latest and greatest tech. But, as always, the kicker is the availability of the tech. If your sub-sector consists of nothing but TL10-12 worlds, but there is a TL-14 on a trade route, then you will see TL-14 gear on every one of those worlds. But it will be MORE expensive, and MORE limited. It might take months to get your TL14 medscanner - but you'll get it eventually if you can pay for it.

Consider this - the Riverside TL14 medscanner costs Cr500 on the planet that makes it. A trader picks up a crate of them (100) for an initial investment of Cr 50,000. He's got 5 TL10 worlds on his trade route, each one Jump-2 away from TL14 planet (to make this easier, think of them in a line, each one a J-2 away from the next). If he's a good trader on a known route he'll have a good idea of how many each planet might be able to absorb, so for sake of argument he decides to sell 25% at each planet. On planet-1 he sells them for Cr800each. At planet-2 he sells them for Cr1,000 each, at planet-3 he sells them for Cr1,500 each, and at planet-4 he sells them for Cr1,000 each. The idea being to not overload the market and to sell them for the max profit at each stop (and also to SELL them - so if the market can't afford it, don't price them at that level).

For the opposite, there's always going to be a market for making lower-tech goods at higher tech worlds - but only so much and so far. Yeah, we still make glass beads today and if there were any people on a planet that have never seen them before they might trade stupid weeds and sticks (medical herbs and exotic woods) for them because that's how trade works. But those kinds of markets quickly understand that a crossbow is state of the art tech now, but the next trader may bring flintlocks, and the next repeating rifles, etc. So no planet is going to be cranking out goods that have decaying markets. Thus today crossbows are fancy and not cheap (you can buy 9mm pistols cheaper than some of the crossbows on the market). The modern crossbow might be lighter and easier to cock than one built in ye-olde England, but it's still not really gonna be mass produced. The math gets quirkier as the TLs get closer to modern, as it's easier to source, build and sell such things. Oddly enough a crossbow is more of a specialty good today, thus it's going to be more rare and expensive than say a Taurus 9mm.

Here's a real world example -

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1031636464814123

- In Switzerland they have a tank simulator from the 1970s. It's only 50 years ago, but getting parts and such for the equipment was difficult. And the tech is using cameras and miniature landscapes to simulate what they could not do in the 70s. NASA had one at Johnson Space center, for aircraft, that uses the same concept (i.e. it's like a flying periscope over terrain).

 

[Condottiere]

Cosmopolizataion.

Isolate which components in the bill of materials can be manufactured locally, import everything else, and assemble it.

 

[ottarrus]

There's 'shipping costs' and then there's 'SHIPPING COSTS'... It's one thing to load items up on a container ship and sail halfway around a world. Earth is *extremely* fortunate that that's even possible. An awful lot of worlds in the Traveller universe don't have the luxury of cheap mass transportation.

And then there's the expenses of interstellar shipping.

The end user price for a given item is gonna include the costs of every single stage of the manufacturing process, plus salaries of everyone involved with the manufacturing process, plus shareholder profits. THEN you load the goodies up in a shipping container and send them off on a multi-parsec journey through non-Newtonian space. So add on the transport ship [incl. mortgage, salaries, etc.], taxes and fees, the cargo's share of the port expenses, etc. THEN you add the road/rail/sea/grav transportation costs to the point of sale. And it's at this point that the goodie is finally shows in the store window.

So if you want a specific piece of high-tech gear and you're out in Boonieville [a wide spot at the end of a very long road] on the planet Waythehell, you'll be lucky if said item [or something vaguely like it] is available and grateful to pay double its price at its point of manufacture.

 

[Condottiere]

To a certain extent, Chinese exports are doubly subsidized.

By their government, and then by the rich Western ones.

 

[phavoc]

There's 'shipping costs' and 'SHIPPING COSTS'... It's one thing to load items up on a container ship and sail halfway around the world. Earth is *extremely* fortunate that that's even possible. An awful lot of worlds in the Traveller universe don't have the luxury of cheap mass transportation.

And then there's the expenses of interstellar shipping.

The end user price for a given item is gonna include the costs of every single stage of the manufacturing process, plus salaries of everyone involved with the manufacturing process, plus shareholder profits. THEN you load the goodies up in a shipping container and send them off on a multi-parsec journey through non-Newtonian space. So add on the transport ship [incl. mortgage, salaries, etc.], taxes and fees, the cargo's share of the port expenses, etc. THEN you add the road/rail/sea/grav transportation costs. And then the goodie is finally shown in the store window.

So if you want a specific piece of high-tech gear and you're out in Boonieville [a wide spot at the end of a very long road] on the planet Waythehell, you'll be lucky if said item [or something vaguely like it] is available and grateful to pay double it's price at it's point of manufacture.

This is a bit of a nebulous point, and would require far more economics and cost modeling to determine "true" costs. If you are a Trader and you paid Cr100 for an item, it's cost is Cr100 to you. You may carry it around for 6 months before you sell it, but the question of it "cost" is highly variable. You have the lost opportunity cost of your Cr100 for as long as you have the good in your inventory. That money could be spent elsewhere on something that may drive a profit. You have the opportunity cost of the space it takes in your ship/warehouse that could have been allocated to another good that would have sold sooner.

However if your Cr100 cost was sold 6 months later for Cr1,000, would your Cr900 profit be greater than what you might have made if you had bought/sold every week using that Cr100? It depends.

And a trader often buys on speculation, thus they are taking a risk. A container ship doesn't speculate - it's getting a set amount for every load. Whoever owns the contents of the container is the one taking the potential risk. Free traders who speculate on goods take on greater risk for greater rewards. Megacorps take on little risk for guaranteed rewards.

 

[ottarrus]

This is a bit of a nebulous point, and would require far more economics and cost modeling to determine "true" costs. If you are a Trader and you paid Cr100 for an item, it's cost is Cr100 to you. You may carry it around for 6 months before you sell it, but the question of it "cost" is highly variable. You have the lost opportunity cost of your Cr100 for as long as you have the good in your inventory. That money could be spent elsewhere on something that may drive a profit. You have the opportunity cost of the space it takes in your ship/warehouse that could have been allocated to another good that would have sold sooner.

However if your Cr100 cost was sold 6 months later for Cr1,000, would your Cr900 profit be greater than what you might have made if you had bought/sold every week using that Cr100? It depends.

And a trader often buys on speculation, thus they are taking a risk. A container ship doesn't speculate - it's getting a set amount for every load. Whoever owns the contents of the container is the one taking the potential risk. Free traders who speculate on goods take on greater risk for greater rewards. Megacorps take on little risk for guaranteed rewards.

Well, I was thinking in a more general sense. By way of example:
You want an LSP Model X Dohickey at TL 15. That product is manufactured on Trin/Trin's Veil. The product is manufactured and all the costs of that process are added up. Then it's packaged and loaded up with a couple hundred of it's cousins into a 50 dton cargo container and loaded on to a 20 k ton cargo ship and sent to a retail hub in, say, Porozlo/Rhylenor. Add the costs of that transport.
At Porozlo, the cargo container of Dohickeys is unloaded and broken up into pallet-loads.
NOW we get to the part where Mr. Far Trader speculates on a 10 dtons of 'electronics'. But there isn't much call for Dohickeys in the first two stop, and the Trader is worried he picked up some 'dead freight'. He finally arrives at Aramis/Aramis, where he make a great trade and sells the whole lot for a profit. Just in time for the PCs to buy one Dohickey at an electronics store which will aid them in getting Gvodzon's amulet back from the museum in 'The Traveller Adventure.'
ALL these costs are added to the end purchase price by using a simple mechanic of Manufacturing TL, Sale Point TL, and a couple d6s.

 

[phavoc]

Well, I was thinking in a more general sense. By way of example:
You want an LSP Model X Dohickey at TL 15. That product is manufactured on Trin/Trin's Veil. The product is manufactured and all the costs of that process are added up. Then it's packaged and loaded up with a couple hundred of it's cousins into a 50 dton cargo container and loaded on to a 20 k ton cargo ship and sent to a retail hub in, say, Porozlo/Rhylenor. Add the costs of that transport.
At Porozlo, the cargo container of Dohickeys is unloaded and broken up into pallet-loads.
NOW we get to the part where Mr. Far Trader speculates on a 10 dtons of 'electronics'. But there isn't much call for Dohickeys in the first two stop, and the Trader is worried he picked up some 'dead freight'. He finally arrives at Aramis/Aramis, where he make a great trade and sells the whole lot for a profit. Just in time for the PCs to buy one Dohickey at an electronics store which will aid them in getting Gvodzon's amulet back from the museum in 'The Traveller Adventure.'
ALL these costs are added to the end purchase price by using a simple mechanic of Manufacturing TL, Sale Point TL, and a couple d6s.

Yeah, that's the same thing, just with the added step of moving the item from it's original manufacturing point to a location where a trader may pick it up to sell it elsewhere.

For larger items like that the costs can still be estimated in the same way - just figure out how many hops you think it takes to get to the trading hub, add your freight cost and then anywhere from 5-20% on top of that for the profit on the sale (you can also be generous and add just 5% or so since the original cost also has profit margin already built into it).

Traveller economics model is kinda wonky, and if there was a market you'd see that TL15 product being made on TL12-14 worlds closer to the markets they sell at it, with the necessary TL15 materials shipped in and the rest sourced/manufactured closer to the manufacturing hub. You can use today's car industry to model how that works.

 

[Jame Rowe]

My thought is that if a planet is at or higher than the TL necessary to build an item, then whatever version of the item will be built at the planetary TL unless specifically built to be a lower TL.
My favorite thing to harp on is weapons: a TL 10 planet will still build autopistols, but these will be TL 10 autopistols instead of TL 5 ones. Now, this doesn't need to be anything other than flavor for anyone else, but for me, it will mean that they're a bit liter and use an advanced form of caseless ammunition. So the main reason that a PC could buy ammo for it anywhere is because they're buying either at the star port or that the ammo design is very common.

 

[Thisdan]

My thought is that if a planet is at or higher than the TL necessary to build an item, then whatever version of the item will be built at the planetary TL unless specifically built to be a lower TL.
My favorite thing to harp on is weapons: a TL 10 planet will still build autopistols, but these will be TL 10 autopistols instead of TL 5 ones. Now, this doesn't need to be anything other than flavor for anyone else, but for me, it will mean that they're a bit liter and use an advanced form of caseless ammunition. So the main reason that a PC could buy ammo for it anywhere is because they're buying either at the star port or that the ammo design is very common.

Flavor-wise I am totally with you. Rules-wise it would be a problem because of the smart trait and EMP I'm afraid.