Thoughts on the Dark Imperium

[actionman]

But that's not generally the experience on Earth. And I doubt human nature has changed that much in the future.

True.

And, consider the cultural heritage of Vland and Ziru Sirka. Conquest, oppression, a caste system, genocide, authoritarianism, and corruption. People didn't matter. That is what the Vilani imposed and maintained on 10,000 worlds for 10,000 years.

Then came the Solomani, with all the problems of contemporary human beings, and all the wars and upheaval they brought.

Then came the Long Night and all the chaos, privation, violence, and death which it brought.

Then came the Third Imperium, and it's wars and conquests.

It's not particularly plausible that a benign good guy government would arise from a history and cultural heritage like this.

 

[Sigtrygg]

So, I have been giving more thought to this whole "Dark Imperium" thing. Assuming that the Third Imperium is a "Dark Imperium" as has been noted in the "fluff", then I believe that some of the mechanics of the game do not line up with that. For example...
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Now look at the rules as written. It is insanely easy to make money Spec Trading. It is insanely easy to make money manufacturing and mining. These are just 2 examples of Traveller Rules, not setting-specific rules, that make the mechanics not match the "fluff". Same with robots. Buy a robot for 24KCr out of your Mustering Out benefits for a robot with Profession/2. This robot can work 3 shifts a day versus a sophonts 1. General Crew with a skill of level 2 are paid 150% the rate of a skill level one worker, so 1,000Cr/mo times 150% equals 1,500Cr/mo. Working 3 shifts this robot now brings in 4,500Cr/month and the maintenance costs are only like 2Cr (or 20Cr if I did My math wrong) per month. If an average person spends 50% of their income on "Living Expenses", that would be roughly 2,200Cr/month for Living Expenses putting this sophont in the High Standard of Living bracket. This would seem to disprove the statement above that only planning and executing daring schemes work for the acquisition of wealth and power.

You are using current Mongoose rules yes?
Using CT trading rules it wasn't a certain thing you would make any money at all, especially when starting out and had to rely on freight and passengers. The Mongoose trading rules make it far too easy for Travellers to make money trading.
The CT mining rules made it very unlikely you would make it rich as an independent miner (CT boxed set Berltstrike).
And robots cost a lot more in CT.

The comment at the end of LBB:3 applied to the CT rules, Mongoose have not just changed the setting they have changed the trade rules too

 

[MasterGwydion]

You are using current Mongoose rules yes?
Using CT trading rules it wasn't a certain thing you would make any money at all, especially when starting out and had to rely on freight and passengers. The Mongoose trading rules make it far too easy for Travellers to make money trading.
The CT mining rules made it very unlikely you would make it rich as an independent miner (CT boxed set Berltstrike).
And robots cost a lot more in CT.

The comment at the end of LBB:3 applied to the CT rules, Mongoose have not just changed the setting they have changed the trade rules too

I apologize. I should have been more precise. Yes, I am using the latest Mongoose rules as those rules are the new ¨Canon¨.

 

[actionman]

You are using current Mongoose rules yes?
Using CT trading rules it wasn't a certain thing you would make any money at all, especially when starting out and had to rely on freight and passengers. The Mongoose trading rules make it far too easy for Travellers to make money trading.
The CT mining rules made it very unlikely you would make it rich as an independent miner (CT boxed set Berltstrike).
And robots cost a lot more in CT.

The comment at the end of LBB:3 applied to the CT rules, Mongoose have not just changed the setting they have changed the trade rules too

And the actions of the Third Imperium in Mongoose 2e that indicate a dark Imperium are fairly straightforward.

 

[Bense]

Now look at the rules as written. It is insanely easy to make money Spec Trading. It is insanely easy to make money manufacturing and mining. These are just 2 examples of Traveller Rules, not setting-specific rules, that make the mechanics not match the "fluff".

That's why I read that particular paragraph as really saying, "the best adventures happen when the players are bold and trying to execute daring schemes rather than just making money through trade."

 

[actionman]

It's not particularly plausible that a benign good guy government would arise from a history and cultural heritage like this.

To expand on this: cultural values formed in times of suffering and danger tend to be very persistent, and this shapes the values and worldview of people who go on to decide government policy, and it shapes what a world's population would be willing to tolerate or even accept. Cultural values formed like this can last for centuries, especially if the broader society or planetary population accepts it or if the powerful of the society promote and enforce it.

 

[MasterGwydion]

That's why I read that particular paragraph as

That's why I read that particular paragraph as really saying, "the best adventures happen when the players are bold and trying to execute daring schemes rather than just making money through trade."

Except it explicitly states "acquisition of wealth and power". It could even be interpreted to say that adventuring is the only way to acquire wealth and power. That would agree more with your take on it.

 

[Vormaerin]

If anything the Third Imperium's humaniti is far too similar to our own to be strictly plausible. But gaming with unrecognizable humans wouldn't be much fun.

Oh, I agree that they are culturally generally too similar to modern "western" culture humans. Speaking as someone whose academic background is in cultural anthropology, they aren't even as diverse as humans are on Earth.

But, as WHULorigan says, human nature is still human nature. If you get to the point where your "Humans" are not behaving like humans (as opposed to behaving like culturally diverse humans), then you've changed the topic beyond recognition.

And we know that's not the case with the Third Imperium, so it's kind of moot.

 

[Vormaerin]

You are using current Mongoose rules yes?
Using CT trading rules it wasn't a certain thing you would make any money at all, especially when starting out and had to rely on freight and passengers. The Mongoose trading rules make it far too easy for Travellers to make money trading.
The CT mining rules made it very unlikely you would make it rich as an independent miner (CT boxed set Berltstrike).
And robots cost a lot more in CT.

The comment at the end of LBB:3 applied to the CT rules, Mongoose have not just changed the setting they have changed the trade rules too

Yup. It's very very difficult to make money in a tramp trader in CT. The shipping and passenger rates were significantly upgraded in Mongoose specifically to make those ships profitable, whereas earlier they were designed to make the crew need to adventure on the side to break even.

CT's speculation table is still a money spinner if taken literally and the GM is not using it to create adventures of the sort highlighted in The Traveller Adventure. Which I believe is the intended use, but is not given any explanation to that effect. As a result, it has been frequently used as 'roll dice with perfect information and no competition, so become rich quickly'.

 

[Jame Rowe]

And then we have Dark Conspiracy coming under the header of MgT,to bring a whole new dimension (or proto) to all this.

 

[actionman]

Oh, I agree that they are culturally generally too similar to modern "western" culture humans.

Astroburgers. I rest my case.

 

[actionman]

But, as WHULorigan says, human nature is still human nature. If you get to the point where your "Humans" are not behaving like humans (as opposed to behaving like culturally diverse humans), then you've changed the topic beyond recognition.

I'd also say that the origins of Imperial humans are not particularly diverse. The majority of the Third Imperium's population are Vilani humans, and the Vilani enforced cultural assimilation for thousands of years. Before that, the Ancients took one group of homogenous humans, presumably with their own culture, to be first Vilani. Ancient Egyptian culture, Indian culture, and Chinese culture all lasted for thousands of years. Icelandic culture, though it changed, lasted for at least a thousand years. Enforced Vilani cultural assimilation only lapsed for about 1500 years during the Long Night, and Vilani and Vilani acculturated populations, who were by far the majority, would've easily retained Vilani culture and language on their separate worlds during that time.

Besides the Vilani humans, there would the Imperial Solomani remnants, the minor human races, the Vargr, and the minor races, but these populations are a relatively small fraction of the Imperial population, far too few to affect the majority Vilani culture. This is why I've commented before on the need for an official Mongoose Vilani book.

 

[Vormaerin]

The Vilani are certainly a major influence. But there are many, many worlds in the Imperium. And many of them were never part of the Ziru Sirka. And they are not that close together. Jump drive is not constant communication. Nor is the long periods of interregnum to discounted.

The Syleans, who founded the Third Imperium, do have both Solomani and Vilani influences. But they are not the same as either.

But the differences in environment will make for big differences in how people behave. And the lack of constant communication will lead to cultural drift from world to world. Some worlds were settled by religious groups. Some were settled by corporate interests. Some were settled by Vilani, Solomani, or Third Imperial government agencies. Many had multiple waves of settlement.

It is very easy to underestimate the way cultures drift in the absence of today's intense communications. Not to mention that it is unlikely that most of these worlds are monocultures. They have as long a history as homo sapiens on Earth and look how many languages and cultures we came up with?

The starports are, of course, going to be heavily influenced by this interstellar culture fostered by the Imperium. But actually on the worlds themselves? Much, much less.

 

[Sigtrygg]

The Vilani are certainly a major influence. But there are many, many worlds in the Imperium. And many of them were never part of the Ziru Sirka. And they are not that close together. Jump drive is not constant communication. Nor is the long periods of interregnum to discounted.

The Syleans, who founded the Third Imperium, do have both Solomani and Vilani influences. But they are not the same as either.

Be very careful with the Syleans.

Sylea was one of the worlds the Ancients dumped a minor human race on. The Vilani conquered Sylea and moved in lots of Vilani colonists, the native Syleans were restricted to reservations and there was little hybridisation.

Along came the Solomani and took over Sylea, the Solomani remained aloof and rarely hybridised with the Vilani, although during the Long Night... mixing occurred
the native Syleans also made a comeback under Solomani rule (odd that racist Solomani would promote the acomplishments of a "minor" race).

So at the dawn of the Third Imperium Sylea is ruled by an elitist group of Solomani and Solomani/Vilani hybrids, the majority remain Vilani, while the Syleans now number in the billions, some have moved to Sylean Federation worlds, but the majority remain on Sylea. The majority of the Sylean Federation remain Vilani, Vilani/Solomani.

It is very easy to underestimate the way cultures drift in the absence of today's intense communications. Not to mention that it is unlikely that most of these worlds are monocultures. They have as long a history as homo sapiens on Earth and look how many languages and cultures we came up with?

This.
If you put 10 million people in a city subcultures develop. Spread those people out into settlements of 1,000,000 and you will get cultural shift between them.

The starports are, of course, going to be heavily influenced by this interstellar culture fostered by the Imperium. But actually on the worlds themselves? Much, much less.

And the Imperium does not interfere with the local world culture...
(except when it does).
A better way to say it is the Imperium doesn't force its cultural norms onto planetary populations, but will interfere if a world threatens the Pax Imperia.

 

[Vormaerin]

Be very careful with the Syleans.

Yes, but extirpating cultures is actually pretty hard. Not impossible, of course. But far more immigrant conquerors get absorbed by the locals than convert them into mini-mes.

Are the Syleans of Cleon's time the same as the Syleans of old? Of course not. But they wouldn't have been even without the contact with other humans. The Australians and the Americans aren't the English and that's just a few centuries.

The Third Imperium isn't some wholly different thing unconnected to the previous Imperia, but neither is it a clone of either of them. And part of that difference is going to come from the Syleans and their cultural impact on the society that founded it. The Long Night was, in fact, rather Long.

 

[actionman]

Yes, but extirpating cultures is actually pretty hard.

True, it takes time, and usually war, occupation, and a determined centuries long effort, and even then it usually doesn't work.

Greek culture survived 500 years of Ottoman occupation. Even the Coptic people of Egypt survived. Assyrians still exist today, and they still speak Neo-Aramaic. These nations and cultures survived despite determined efforts from outside forces to assimilate them.

Consider:





- Some AI Searchbot

Vilani populations at the time of the Long Night became isolated. IMO culture would shift depending on the how much the cessation of interstellar trade would affect people's lives. If a world could maintain itself on its own, I doubt there would be all that much shift. If things became desperate or deadly, then culture would shift in a direction inspired by those conditions.

I suspect that the languages of isolated populations would remain very similar to their languages at the time of isolation over the centuries. There would be no new stimuli to inspire them to change. There would be no loan words from other languages, no new things to come up with words for, etc. While slang and dialect would develop, and pronunciation would change, Vilani-speaking populations which became isolated would still speak a dialect of Vilani.

The Australians and the Americans aren't the English and that's just a few centuries.

But they and the other populations of the British diaspora speak English and their cultures are easily recognizable as Anglo-descended cultures. One example is that nations that are descended from primarily British populations wait in lines, while continental Europeans generally don't place much emphasis on that. Something else to consider is that Americans, Australians, and others were not homogenous populations of English people that were isolated for several hundred years. They were mixtures of populations from many nations, of which British populations were the largest part. They were constantly adapting to new conditions and new populations with new languages and customs. In the USA, an important reason why New England and the South are different is that they were settled by different groups of Britons. New England was settled by Midlands Puritans, while the South was settled by people from different parts of the UK, with a large Welsh and Irish contingent. Appalachia was by a mixture of populations from the British Isles as well as by Germans. Another thing is that someone ceases to be considered English as soon as he "loses proof of it in his speech" and doesn't appear to have grown up in the old neighborhood.

Another example of how languages can be slow to change is Pitcairn Island. As late as the 1950's, people of Pitcairn Island spoke English with distinct identifiable regional British accents, because they learned to speak English at home from the original sailors of the HMS Bounty and their descendants. There's also Montserrat in the Carribbean where people still speak English with an Irish accent because of all the Irish people that Cromwell deported there.

But of course languages do shift and change. My point is that populations who have been adapted to life on their world for centuries, as part of the Ziru Sirka, will not change all that much. They're still going to speak a dialect of Vilani that is recognizable as the form of Vilani they were speaking at the time of their isolation. Unless the Long Night destroys their way of life so that they are forced to change drastically, I doubt they'd change all that much.

 

[MasterGwydion]

True, it takes time, and usually war, occupation, and a determined centuries long effort, and even then it usually doesn't work.

Greek culture survived 500 years of Ottoman occupation. Even the Coptic people of Egypt survived. Assyrians still exist today, and they still speak Neo-Aramaic. These nations and cultures survived despite determined efforts from outside forces to assimilate them.

Consider:

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View attachment 4158

- Some AI Searchbot

Vilani populations at the time of the Long Night became isolated. IMO culture would shift depending on the how much the cessation of interstellar trade would affect people's lives. If a world could maintain itself on its own, I doubt there would be all that much shift. If things became desperate or deadly, then culture would shift in a direction inspired by those conditions.

I suspect that the languages of isolated populations would remain very similar to their languages at the time of isolation over the centuries. There would be no new stimuli to inspire them to change. There would be no loan words from other languages, no new things to come up with words for, etc. While slang and dialect would develop, and pronunciation would change, Vilani-speaking populations which became isolated would still speak a dialect of Vilani.



But they and the other populations of the British diaspora speak English and their cultures are easily recognizable as Anglo-descended cultures. One example is that nations that are descended from primarily British populations wait in lines, while continental Europeans generally don't place much emphasis on that. Something else to consider is that Americans, Australians, and others were not homogenous populations of English people that were isolated for several hundred years. They were mixtures of populations from many nations, of which British populations were the largest part. They were constantly adapting to new conditions and new populations with new languages and customs. In the USA, an important reason why New England and the South are different is that they were settled by different groups of Britons. New England was settled by Midlands Puritans, while the South was settled by people from different parts of the UK, with a large Welsh and Irish contingent. Appalachia was by a mixture of populations from the British Isles as well as by Germans. Another thing is that someone ceases to be considered English as soon as he "loses proof of it in his speech" and doesn't appear to have grown up in the old neighborhood.

Another example of how languages can be slow to change is Pitcairn Island. As late as the 1950's, people of Pitcairn Island spoke English with distinct identifiable regional British accents, because they learned to speak English at home from the original sailors of the HMS Bounty and their descendants. There's also Montserrat in the Carribbean where people still speak English with an Irish accent because of all the Irish people that Cromwell deported there.

But of course languages do shift and change. My point is that populations who have been adapted to life on their world for centuries, as part of the Ziru Sirka, will not change all that much. They're still going to speak a dialect of Vilani that is recognizable as the form of Vilani they were speaking at the time of their isolation. Unless the Long Night destroys their way of life so that they are forced to change drastically, I doubt they'd change all that much.

I will agree with you as long as the world involved is not Balkanized. Balkanization would change everything.

 

[Vormaerin]

No one said that they would be unrecognizable to themselves? Just that, even during the Ziru Sirka, they would adapt to their separate worlds with their unique challenges, additional influences, and relative isolation. There are more than a hundred human minor races just in Charted Space (according to T5). And there are many aliens. And worlds are not the same.

Just as an example, a major element of Vilani culture derives from the fact that there's barely any foodstuffs on Vland that can be eaten without processing. How is that affected by centuries of relative isolation on a world where you can just eat stuff that grows? Likewise, they have a circadian rhythm adapted to a much longer day. Does that survive centuries different light levels, day lengths, seasons, etc. People who live on a world where the planet will kill them will have behavioral differences from people who live in a paradise.

Communication is critical to cultural continuity. Interstellar Communication in Charted Space is extremely slow. And that's leaving out the wide range in cultural variation we have just on this one planet. You can decide that the Vilani unified into a world monoculture and spread it to thousands of stars. But in the real world, we can't prevent regional cultural variation even with the internet's constant cultural propagation.

The "Solomani" are basically European cultured because that's what the game designers (and probably most of the players) know. But where's the Asian, African, and other cultural influences? There are many different kinship groupings, residency patterns, and social organizations on this one planet than in the whole of charted space as written.

Even just little things would be different from world to world. I live in Hawai'i. The guy who delivered my groceries yesterday greeted me with "Hey, Uncle". Because that's the appropriate term for a younger person greeting someone older, even though we aren't related.

On languages, sure, modern Icelandic is pretty similar to old icelandic. But it's definitely different from Swedish, which is from the same root. People on Planet Iceland are gonna have similarities in speech and culture to people on planet Sweden, but they will be different. And if Planet Iceland has a different human minor race, while planet Sweden has a sizable population of Newts, they'll have diverged even more.

Does that mean that every world is going to be totally different? Of course not. But there is going to be a lot of diversity even with the Vilani Imperium's pervasiveness and eventual conservatism. It is unlikely you can overstate the impact that Jump space communications creates relative isolation compared to the 20th century, much less the 21st.

 

[WHULorigan]

Assyrians still exist today, and they still speak Neo-Aramaic.

Fortunately, they are Christians today and they don't still flay/skin alive their adversaries who fail to submit and pay tribute . . .

One example is that nations that are descended from primarily British populations wait in lines, while continental Europeans generally don't place much emphasis on that.

Excuse me.

We (Americans) wait in lines . . .
Brits wait in queues . . .

 

[Jame Rowe]

Excuse me.

We (Americans) wait in lines . . .
Brits wait in queues . . .

And it's pronounced "qway-way."