Thoughts on the Dark Imperium

[actionman]

When I was pondering ATUs/MTUs I had two main factions in the Solomani Movement, the Supremacists and Nationalists.
The former wanted to regain pre-eminence in the Imperium and were based around the Core but the Nationalists in the Rim just wanted to be out.

I agree. The way I run the Solomani Confederation IMTU is that the Supremacist school of thought has become ideological background noise so to speak because of the Solomani defeat in the Rim War, the loss of Terra, and the passing of the generations. The pragmatic Nationalist school of thought has become ascendant and firmly entrenched, though no less hostile to non-Solomani (sometimes moreso, as non-Solomani can be considered enemies of the state). The difference is that the Supremacist school of thought was based on past victories, but the Nationalist school of thought is based on the bitter experience of the war and the existential danger that the modern Imperium represents. But, that's IMTU, not a conclusion derived from source material.

 

[WHULorigan]

What happened to Margaret? Did she die? Did she just say "Well, okay I guess," after this incident?

Edit: It seems to me that an Empress willing to destroy all life on one of her worlds would purge the Imperial Bureaucracy and staff it with ambitious people loyal to her and the Iridium Throne.

Margaret I is the Empress, going all the way back to CT Library Data, we are told died in a tunnel collapse. AotI has given us the details of how that happened, and that it was NOT an accident.

 

[actionman]

Margaret I is the Empress, going all the way back to CT Library Data, we are told died in a tunnel collapse. AotI has given us the details of how that happened, and that it was NOT an accident.

Excellent, thanks.

 

[Sigtrygg]

When I was pondering ATUs/MTUs I had two main factions in the Solomani Movement, the Supremacists and Nationalists.
The former wanted to regain pre-eminence in the Imperium and were based around the Core but the Nationalists in the Rim just wanted to be out.

Someone should write a book about the realities of Terran space.

1. Terra moved its warfighting logistics during the later ISW era to the worlds that had been colonised or taken from the Ziru Sirka.
2. The Rule of Man didn't really affect Terra, the world governments of Terra, the USA, India, Turkey, China, the EU all had space industries, merchants, explores and colonists that had nothing to do with the UN and its Teran Confederation descendents.
3. The nations of the Earth and multinational corporations established their own pocket empires totally separate to the Ziru Sirka now under Terran Confederation rule
4. The Terran Merchantile Community replaced the confederation after the fall of the Rule of Man, with coreward states such as the Easter Concord and the Dingir league replacing the now defunct Imperium, while to rimward, spinward and trailing Terran exploration, trade, colonisation and establishment of new polities continued. The TMC would eventually become an alliance called the Old Earth Union, but we know little of its details.
5. While the Ziru Sirka collapsed into the Long Night the region to spinward, rimward and trailing of Terra continued to develop until recontact.
6. When the Third Imperium came calling they faced a loose collection of polities that they encouraged by fair means or foul to join, if the Terrans had said no the Imperium lacked the resources for a shooting war, especially after the Julian debacle.

This is what has never been explored in enough detail, all those pocket empires the people of Earth developed.

The Imperial story of the people of Earth mostly did very little during the long night until "the Solomani" rejoined the Imperium is stuff and nonsense, there is definitely more to it.
We know Terran merchants and explorers contacted the Aslan to Spinward and the Hivers to trailing, they even fought a war with the Aslan. The Sword Worlds were colonised by people from Earth long after the Rule of Man ended, The Turkish Itzin fleet made it all the way to the Darrians.

 

[Vormaerin]

It was, of course, more complicated than that.
Margaret could not merely say "I'm the Empress and I'm ordering that world scrubbed."

Yes, actually, she can and that is what she did. It didn't happen because the person with the Imperial Warrant sent to do it did something else instead of what she ordered.

She ordered the Navy to go there, kill everyone, and come home. And we have every reason to believe that they would have done it, because they have done it in the past and they do it again in the future. All the secrecy was to make sure that the Geonee were home and unaware so it could happen.

And then the new Emperor just changed the rules so that the Geonee couldn't try it again. Because there's no *law* there's just Emperor's will and the court of nobles' opinions and they would have been offended by the Empress changing the rules in the middle of a session. But between sessions? Easy peasy.


And if you think that is just some weird thing in AotI, it's also stated in Mongoose's Mysteries of the Ancients that the Omicron Division has Imperial Warrant authority and can order a world scrubbed if they felt that was necessary to contain a threat.

 

[actionman]

Someone should write a book about the realities of Terran space.

Agreed, and hopefully by someone who will keep to the level of non-emotional clinical description in Classic Traveller instead of the emotional bias found in some later products.

 

[actionman]

It didn't happen because the person with the Imperial Warrant sent to do it did something else instead of what she ordered.

Treason, then regicide. Dark again. But wait, it's ok because our contemporary reader's sensibilities tell us that he did it for good.

 

[actionman]

Attack of the Plato:

 

[Vormaerin]

Treason, then regicide. Dark again. But wait, it's ok because our contemporary reader's sensibilities tell us that he did it for good.

Depends. He was empowered by a completely different Emperor with the specific task of preserving the Empire from catastrophic threats. So you could argue that, in this case, countering the whims of a spiteful Empress fell into his mandate.

But, yes, the fact that killing the Empress is the only recourse is one of the reasons the Imperium is not a place of laws.



Edit: Actually, I don't think Bland is particularly sympathetic at all. The fact that someone like him exists in the Imperium is one of the reasons it is a dystopia. He is chosen because his specialty is genocide. The fact that he has criteria for when it is an isn't appropriate is not particularly redeeming.

He's also petty, ruining the lives of people who annoy him (the entire family of the Admiral who didn't obey him, as well as the entire family of the monument maker who didn't do a good job). He has functionally unlimited power and uses it to impoverish some people whose only offense is being related to a guy who he disliked. Also,he completely fails to consider that the master plan for saving humanity from the empress wave (I think that's what that's supposed to be) doesn't account for non humans at all.

 

[actionman]

He was empowered by a completely different Emperor

So, treason and regicide. His mandate is whatever the reigning monarch says it is. I suppose I'll have to finish reading AotI to properly discuss this.

 

[Vormaerin]

Perhaps. This is a government where stabbing the previous Emperor is a legitimate (ish) claim to the Throne.

 

[Arkathan]

Like B5's Centauri Republic. Vir Coto did that, but he had to wait for Londo to get strangled in order to sit in the chair.

 

[MasterGwydion]

My thoughts on a Dark Imperium. I would love it as a player, playing heroes fighting for the common man. I would hate it as a Referee, because fleshing out a Dark Imperium would be too depressing for Me.

 

[Condottiere]

Attention span.

That's why you have a bureaucracy, and other star spanning institutions.

Usually, one would assume potential successors tend to get trained how to run an empire, successfully.

 

[actionman]

My thoughts on a Dark Imperium. I would love it as a player, playing heroes fighting for the common man. I would hate it as a Referee, because fleshing out a Dark Imperium would be too depressing for Me.

Well, let's consider that.

This discussion isn't about a grimdark Imperium where everything's horrible, and I don't think that anyone posting in this thread has suggested that nobles are evil. What we've been doing is looking at statements in canon sources, drawing logical conclusions from them, and extrapolating the effects the conditions in the statements would logically have.

Imperial nobles would have to be ruthless when it comes to their wealth, power, and status, but it's perfectly reasonable for many of them to be otherwise decent people. Individual nobles could feel protective of the populations of their fiefs. A noble could even be a moderating force on a world with a tyrannical planetary government. Still other noble fiefholders could be simply enjoying pleasant lives of semi-retirement, perhaps meeting with the planetary government or starport authorities every week or two, a meeting that is as much social as it is business. In these cases, the Imperial noble is a force for stability and order, which promotes safety and prosperity. In that case, fighting for the common man would be supporting the noble fiefholder against a rapacious megacorporation or an uncaring noble rival.

The most important thing which has been discussed in this thread is how by canon statements the Imperium is not a remote benign "good guy" federation. It is much closer to the Russian social model described in the initial video than a voluntary free trade federation in which the Imperium only rules the space between the stars. The Imperium, while not evil, has all the dark issues of an empire ruled by decree by an absolute monarch. Laws are supposed to apply to everyone, not just the poors. But, in the Imperium, the law is whatever the Emperor says it is. There are no restraints on the powerful.

 

[actionman]

Perhaps. This is a government where stabbing the previous Emperor is a legitimate (ish) claim to the Throne.

That reminds me of D&D players who stab the king who's about to give them a quest and say "I killed the king! I'm the king now!"

 

[actionman]

I don't think Bland is particularly sympathetic at all. The fact that someone like him exists in the Imperium is one of the reasons it is a dystopia. He is chosen because his specialty is genocide. The fact that he has criteria for when it is an isn't appropriate is not particularly redeeming.

I'm trying to keep my literary criticisms to myself. Though I will say I stopped reading shortly after Bland destroyed the first planet.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Well, let's consider that.

This discussion isn't about a grimdark Imperium where everything's horrible, and I don't think that anyone posting in this thread has suggested that nobles are evil. What we've been doing is looking at statements in canon sources, drawing logical conclusions from them, and extrapolating the effects the conditions in the statements would logically have.

I guess that depends on your definition of evil.

Imperial nobles would have to be ruthless when it comes to their wealth, power, and status, but it's perfectly reasonable for many of them to be otherwise decent people.

Here I would have to disagree with you. You cannot be ruthless in defense of your wealth, power, and status and be a good person. Being ruthless makes them one of the bad people.

Individual nobles could feel protective of the populations of their fiefs.

Protecting that which they consider their property?

A noble could even be a moderating force on a world with a tyrannical planetary government.

One tyrant protecting you from another tyrant wouldn't indicate a lack of evil. Stalin could protect his people from Mao, but both were evil.

Still other noble fiefholders could be simply enjoying pleasant lives of semi-retirement, perhaps meeting with the planetary government or starport authorities every week or two, a meeting that is as much social as it is business.

Attend rich parties thrown by people made rich by everyone who's backs they are standing on.

In these cases, the Imperial noble is a force for stability and order, which promotes safety and prosperity. In that case, fighting for the common man would be supporting the noble fiefholder against a rapacious megacorporation or an uncaring noble rival.

"Citizens of the civilized galaxy, on this day we mark a transition. For a thousand years, the Republic stood as the crowning achievement of civilized beings. But there were those who would set us against one another, and we took up arms to defend our way of life against the Separatists. In so doing, we never suspected that the greatest threat came from within.

The Jedi, and some within our own Senate, had conspired to create the shadow of Separatism using one of their own as the enemy's leader. They had hoped to grind the Republic into ruin. But the hatred in their hearts could not be hidden forever. At last, there came a day when our enemies showed their true natures.

The Jedi hoped to unleash their destructive power against the Republic by assassinating the head of government and usurping control of the clone army. But the aims of would-be tyrants were valiantly opposed by those without elitist, dangerous powers. Our loyal clone troopers contained the insurrection within the Jedi Temple and quelled uprisings on a thousand worlds.

The remaining Jedi will be hunted down and defeated! Any collaborators will suffer the same fate. These have been trying times, but we have passed the test. The attempt on my life has left me scarred and deformed, but I assure you my resolve has never been stronger. The war is over. The Separatists have been defeated, and the Jedi rebellion has been foiled. We stand on the threshold of a new beginning. In order to ensure our security and continuing stability, the Republic will be reorganized into the first Galactic Empire, for a safe and secure society, which I assure you will last for ten thousand years. An Empire that will continue to be ruled by this august body and a sovereign ruler chosen for life. An Empire ruled by the majority, ruled by a new constitution!

By bringing the entire galaxy under one law, one language, and the enlightened guidance of one individual, the corruption that plagued the Republic in its later years will never take root. Regional governors will eliminate the bureaucracy that allowed the Separatist movement to grow unchecked. A strong and growing military will ensure the rule of law.

Under the Empire's New Order, our most cherished beliefs will be safeguarded. We will defend our ideals by force of arms. We will give no ground to our enemies and will stand together against attacks from within or without. Let the enemies of the Empire take heed: those who challenge Imperial resolve will be crushed.

We have taken on a task that will be difficult, but the people of the Empire are ready for the challenge. Because of our efforts, the galaxy has traded war for peace and anarchy for stability. Billions of beings now look forward to a secure future. The Empire will grow as more planets feel the call, from the Rim to the wilds of unknown space.

Imperial citizens must do their part. Join our grand star fleet. Become the eyes of the Empire by reporting suspected insurrectionists. Travel to the corners of the galaxy to spread the principles of the New Order to barbarians. Build monuments and technical wonders that will speak of our glory for generations to come.

The clone troopers, now proudly wearing the name of Imperial stormtroopers, have tackled the dangerous work of fighting our enemies on the front lines. Many have died in their devotion to the Empire. Imperial citizens would do well to remember their example.

The New Order of peace has triumphed over the shadowy secrecy of shameful magicians. The direction of our course is clear. I will lead the Empire to glories beyond imagining.

We have been tested, but we have emerged stronger. We move forward as one people: the Imperial citizens of the first Galactic Empire. We will prevail. Ten thousand years of peace begins today."

-Sheev Palpatine

 

[actionman]

Omicron Division has Imperial Warrant authority

Something tells me Omicron Division never pays for drinks.

Imperial Warrants floating around loose have incredible potential for abuse. Given the speed of communications in Traveller, some jackass with an Imperial Warrant could start a war before anyone knows what he's up to. One would think Imperial Warrants would be extremely tightly controlled.

 

[actionman]

Protecting that which they consider their property?

Well, the Emperor's property.

Being ruthless makes them one of the bad people.

Would being ruthless in defense of the common man make one a bad person?