Taxes, the Imperium, and You!

[Terry Mixon]

but that's an assumption youre making.

So are you. You assume there is freedom of travel. There is not.

The Depot systems are closed to non-Navy traffic. I point you to the entry on Depots in the Singularity Campaign. It even says that other than the military, only civilian contractors are present. Also, all that incineration might be an impediment to freedom of movement.

I personally think that an amber Zone is too light. It needs to be a Red Zone for Depots.

 

[Galadrion]

They might have those populations, but I'd wager coming or going would not be easy. Resident for life!

Fair enough. Most people tend to be such. Even on modern-day Terra, most people never move between counties, other than the occasional temporary visit.

 

[actionman]

The Depot systems are closed to non-Navy traffic.

But your reference states "without the express consent of the Imperial Navy" which is not the same as "closed to non-Naval traffic". The IN can give express consent to 1000 ships a week if it wants (probably vetted crews and ships of a trusted megacorporation). And, I did not assume free travel. My idea was that depot systems are not "isolated military camps". People can come with permission, and probably go after whatever security checks are complete.

 

[Terry Mixon]

But your reference states "without the express consent of the Imperial Navy" which is not the same as "closed to non-Naval traffic". The IN can give express consent to 1000 ships a week if it wants (probably vetted crews and ships of a trusted megacorporation). And, I did not assume free travel. My idea was that depot systems are not "isolated military camps". People can come with permission, and probably go after whatever security checks are complete.

You can read it how you like, but the text is pretty clear that there is not much toing and froing. Everyone is a contractor and there is no freedom of movement. Not in the way you were suggesting. Reassignment and such, sure, but everyone has a high security clearance and there will be orders directing their movement.

 

[rinku]

The difference is probably that Red Zones are prohibited; you face charges for even jumping in. An amber zone depot probably just needs some form of heavily monitored civilian port with strict traffic requirements. Most of the Depot UWPs are much lower tech than the Naval facilities would be, so my take on it is that the mainworld itself is usually a separate - possibly pre-existing - settlement that civilian ships can use. The Depot facilities are likely to be elsewhere in most cases.

 

[Terry Mixon]

The difference is probably that Red Zones are prohibited; you face charges for even jumping in. An amber zone depot probably just needs some form of heavily monitored civilian port with strict traffic requirements. Most of the Depot UWPs are much lower tech than the Naval facilities would be, so my take on it is that the mainworld itself is usually a separate - possibly pre-existing - settlement that civilian ships can use. The Depot facilities are likely to be elsewhere in most cases.

According to the write up, they take up the entire system. The Singularity Campaign makes it clear that even expected ships are watched like hawks and the slightest deviations or unexpected behaviors gets the offender attacked. That sounds pretty definitive.

 

[Condottiere]

If you're born in a restricted system, there might be difficulties in leaving.

Financially, how many years you'd have to save your salary, before you can afford a passage out.

Assuming, there are starships allowed in, that offer that possibility.

 

[rinku]

There could also be a tradeoff between utter security and practical recruitment*. To be honest, the presence of a populated but unimportant world in a Depot system is on balance an asset. It's quite possible the system was selected to be a Depot because of the convenient labour force and in-system shore leave option.

(*And I'm mostly thinking as workers, not Navy proper).

 

[Condottiere]

According to the write up, they take up the entire system. The Singularity Campaign makes it clear that even expected ships are watched like hawks and the slightest deviations or unexpected behaviors gets the offender attacked. That sounds pretty definitive.

Warning
Trespassers
Will
Be
Radiated​

 

[Terry Mixon]

There could also be a tradeoff between utter security and practical recruitment*. To be honest, the presence of a populated but unimportant world in a Depot system is on balance an asset. It's quite possible the system was selected to be a Depot because of the convenient labour force and in-system shore leave option.

(*And I'm mostly thinking as workers, not Navy proper).

All I can say is that it says only military and contractors. And that it is the entire system. Seems pretty cut and dried to me.

 

[rinku]

Sure.

Who owns the planet again?

 

[Terry Mixon]

Sure.

Who owns the planet again?

That would be the Third Imperium. Think of it like a military base that encompasses the entire system.

 

[MonsterX]

Depot in Corridor has native sophonts: https://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Camh_Ranh_(world)

An Amber Zone is not restricted travel (except maybe by your insurance company). It is just a danger warning from a private entity.

Depot Systems and actually Red Zones as well are going to have travel restrictions to them implemented according to the needs of the Imperium in that system. I don't think it will be standard. If there is a populated world, then the Depot could restrict travel to everywhere but that world, but have normal travel to the world and out, and you won't put very secret stuff there if it can be seen from the planet. Or it could be the whole system, with only Navy and certified contractors allowed to even jump there. You won't want Zhodani spies setting up telescopes to look at your secret experiments or even to count how many mothballed dreadnaughts you've got parked, but different secrets have different levels of sensitivity, and also visibility.

 

[Vormaerin]

I am not arguing that the Imperial Navy builds most of its ships at its depot systems. You added the word 'primarily', not me.

My apologies. I apparently lost track of who was making the argument that the Imperial Navy builds its own ships that I had been arguing against in the posts you replied to.

 

[Sigtrygg]

The planets that are detailed in the depot systems are not the IN depot, they are the civilian worlds that are legal to visit, possibly.

The actual depot occupies real estate outside of the control of the planetary government. Look at the TL for each of those depot containing systems - you would expect them to be all TL15. Note these are from the MT era...

 

[actionman]

All I can say is that it says only military and contractors. And that it is the entire system. Seems pretty cut and dried to me.

It says generally only military and contractors. "Generally only military and contractors" and "only military and contractors" are not the same. Generally only military and contractors means mostly or not all or there are exceptions, like people's families. Is the 200 million population of a depot system mainworld all contractors?

Everyone is a contractor and there is no freedom of movement.

Not true. Not everyone is a contractor, and ships that have the consent of the Imperial Navy can travel along the flightpaths given to them by traffic control. Of course there is going to be trade and passenger travel from the mainworlds of depot systems to the jump points, according to what the Imperial Navy allows.

You can read it how you like

I'm reading the words as they are written.

 

[actionman]

My apologies. I apparently lost track of who was making the argument that the Imperial Navy builds its own ships that I had been arguing against in the posts you replied to.

I think when @Sigtrygg and I discussed it, I was of the opinion that depots built both some ships of the line and prototypes, while Sigtrygg was of the opinion that depots only built prototypes and ships of the line were built at commercial shipyards outside depot systems.

 

[phavoc]

It would make the most sense for the systems themselves to be Red zones for no travel - or Amber if they are needed for civilian traffic to get through the sector. I haven't looked at the map for the system placements to see if that would be necessary or not. It does seem logical though. One could keep the depot in the inner system and leave it the outer system available for civilian traffic - heavily monitored and controlled civilian traffic. Restricted military posts where civilian traffic cuts through portions of it exist today - at least in the US where some of the installations are large enough to require it.

As for the travel to / from - with a civilian residential population present, and the expectation that civilian contractors (engineers, consultants, etc), not to mention military dependents, there has to be regular traffic to/from the depot system to adjoining star systems. You'll also have the normal military rotation traffic and supply ships coming and going.

Any super-sensitive location is going to be shielded from outside view. In a star system you'd have oodles of locations to do things like that. If you are building something black then you locate the facility on a planetoid or within an enclosed dock and no sensors or visual records can be captured by ships passing through. You could tow a planetoid into orbit of your main base and be done with it (or maybe the planet already has something like Phobos/Diemos in orbit that would provide you all the space you need from prying eyes).

Even super-secret places like Langley, the HQ of the CIA, while not being open to the public, has a lot of people constantly coming in and out of the facility because of needs.

There is a reasonable medium that will exist.

 

[Condottiere]

The thousand diameter freefall tends to ensure that all private starships would mostly remain out of the outersystem.

 

[Terry Mixon]

It says generally only military and contractors. "Generally only military and contractors" and "only military and contractors" are not the same. Generally only military and contractors means mostly or not all or there are exceptions, like people's families. Is the 200 million population of a depot system mainworld all contractors?



Not true. Not everyone is a contractor, and ships that have the consent of the Imperial Navy can travel along the flightpaths given to them by traffic control. Of course there is going to be trade and passenger travel from the mainworlds of depot systems to the jump points, according to what the Imperial Navy allows.



I'm reading the words as they are written.

I'll agree that generally is there, but you want to make it so that it isn't general at all. You want to make what is stated an exception. You do you, but that isn't what it says.