Thoughts on the Dark Imperium

[Vormaerin]

I don't know that Bland is intended to be sympathetic. He's the protagonist, but that's hardly a reason to think he's the good guy. I mean, the main character of The Stars, My Destination and plenty of other novels is surely not anyone you'd want to know.

There's a fair bit of interesting insight into the Marc's vision of Third Imperium, though some of it is definitely not compatible with how it is presented in the the game books. It's darker and more mystical than how its usually portrayed in the game books or how I prefer for gameplay.

They Third Imperium of the published game materials is dystopian, but how noticeable that is depends very much on what planet you live on. It isn't intended to be grimdark. Even Marc's novel isn't grimdark. But the Imperium was a distant, tired empire with little restraining local power and nothing restraining Imperial power if it did show up. Many of the worlds have really awful planetary governments and the Imperium doesn't care. The Emperor's wealth and power comes from trade, so there is some effort to keep trade functioning, both in terms of restraining planetary governments and somewhat limiting the worst impulses of the megacorporations. It isn't any sort of enlightened freedom loving country, though.

There's no evidence the Imperium remotely cares about the needs of its citizens. It cares about the needs of its oligarchs, who are all bound up in the interstellar economy. Not as explicitly as in DUNE, but that's what matters to the Imperium. Strephon might be a nice guy, but only in a sort of generally "wouldn't it be nice" sort of way. He's certainly not spending any time thinking about improving the lot of the residents of all the hellworlds and tyrannical planetary governments in the Imperium.

 

[Vormaerin]

Something tells me Omicron Division never pays for drinks.

Imperial Warrants floating around loose have incredible potential for abuse. Given the speed of communications in Traveller, some jackass with an Imperial Warrant could start a war before anyone knows what he's up to. One would think Imperial Warrants would be extremely tightly controlled.

I would imagine that they are. Omicron Division is pretty tightly bound to the Throne and I doubt the average trooper can actually invoke the authority of the Warrant. Especially since they don't actually want to legitimize the things they investigate by admitting that the Imperium takes that stuff seriously.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Would being ruthless in defense of the common man make one a bad person?

Yes. Like The Operative in Serenity. He is ruthless and he knows that means that he is not a good person. The paradise he is working towards is for the betterment of all Mankind. He will never be able to see because there is no place for him there. Same kind of thing.

 

[Condottiere]

Bland isn't Major Kusanagi Motoko.

He's more of a Terminator.

And if the majority of the Imperium aristocracy believes they're participating in a zero sum game, then yes, the Imperium is on the decline.

 

[Sigtrygg]

My thoughts on a Dark Imperium. I would love it as a player, playing heroes fighting for the common man. I would hate it as a Referee, because fleshing out a Dark Imperium would be too depressing for Me.

There's nothing to flesh out, just ignore the friendly Imperium veneer of the propaganda and look at the reality.

 

[Sigtrygg]

That's why you have a bureaucracy, and other star spanning institutions.

The Imperial bureaucracy reminds me of every bureaucracy ever. It is staffed by people who follow instructions to the letter, never innovate, skim just enough that they can get away with it, and are the ultimate yes m'lord toadies (at least to their master's faces)

Usually, one would assume potential successors tend to get trained how to run an empire, successfully.

According to the Emperor's list, not always.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I'm trying to keep my literary criticisms to myself. Though I will say I stopped reading shortly after Bland destroyed the first planet.

Me too. I felt a bit sick, definitely disgusted by the first chapter and had to put the book down. It was not what I was expecting.
Then I picked it up, re-read the first chapter and continued, and it started to click. Didn't put it down until I finished it this time.

I do have a criticism that the annotated version with the footnotes is not available in print, unless someone knows different.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Something tells me Omicron Division never pays for drinks.

Imperial Warrants floating around loose have incredible potential for abuse. Given the speed of communications in Traveller, some jackass with an Imperial Warrant could start a war before anyone knows what he's up to. One would think Imperial Warrants would be extremely tightly controlled.

Omicron Division is an MJDism and has no place in the Third Imperium.

 

[Sigtrygg]

There's a fair bit of interesting insight into the Marc's vision of Third Imperium, though some of it is definitely not compatible with how it is presented in the the game books. It's darker and more mystical than how its usually portrayed in the game books or how I prefer for gameplay.

The GDW OTU was line managed by Loren not Marc, and was a combination of ideas from many GDW staff and a couple of valued third party authors.

They Third Imperium of the published game materials is dystopian, but how noticeable that is depends very much on what planet you live on. It isn't intended to be grimdark. Even Marc's novel isn't grimdark. But the Imperium was a distant, tired empire with little restraining local power and nothing restraining Imperial power if it did show up. Many of the worlds have really awful planetary governments and the Imperium doesn't care. The Emperor's wealth and power comes from trade, so there is some effort to keep trade functioning, both in terms of restraining planetary governments and somewhat limiting the worst impulses of the megacorporations. It isn't any sort of enlightened freedom loving country, though.

Completely agree.

There's no evidence the Imperium remotely cares about the needs of its citizens. It cares about the needs of its oligarchs, who are all bound up in the interstellar economy. Not as explicitly as in DUNE, but that's what matters to the Imperium. Strephon might be a nice guy, but only in a sort of generally "wouldn't it be nice" sort of way. He's certainly not spending any time thinking about improving the lot of the residents of all the hellworlds and tyrannical planetary governments in the Imperium.

Look at the worlds detailed in The Traveller Adventure, there are a few of them I wouldn't want to visit let alone be born to.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I would imagine that they are. Omicron Division is pretty tightly bound to the Throne and I doubt the average trooper can actually invoke the authority of the Warrant. Especially since they don't actually want to legitimize the things they investigate by admitting that the Imperium takes that stuff seriously.

Ask yourself where Omicron Division is mentioned in MgT Third Imperium lore. Are they mentioned in The Third Imperium setting book that would surely contain such details?
No, they are made up by an author to suit their version of the Third Imperium. Why not use Agents? Or at least consider the ramifications of this group and why they have never been mentioned ever before.

They are IRIS all over again.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I guess that depends on your definition of evil.

Evil and good are defined by the morality of those who define them. The universe and nature is amoral, there is no good or evil.

Here I would have to disagree with you. You cannot be ruthless in defense of your wealth, power, and status and be a good person.

In your moral framework no, in their moral framework they consider themselves to be a good person. There is no fundamantal good or evil, the distinction is always subjective.

Being ruthless makes them one of the bad people.

Not in a culture that says being ruthless is good for society while being caring is a sign of weakness and will damage society.
You are applying your moral view point because you consider it to be "true".

Protecting that which they consider their property?

All property is theft, it belongs to the collective. This is what good people think.

One tyrant protecting you from another tyrant wouldn't indicate a lack of evil. Stalin could protect his people from Mao, but both were evil.

Both Stalin and Mao considered themselves to be the good guys, do you think Hitler considered himself to be evil? Or Gengis, or Truman?

Attend rich parties thrown by people made rich by everyone who's backs they are standing on.

Ah, the politics of envy, they have stuff, I don't, I should be able to take it because I am a good person and they are evil...

 

[MasterGwydion]

There's nothing to flesh out, just ignore the friendly Imperium veneer of the propaganda and look at the reality.

By "flesh out" I mean writing and running evil NPCs and organizations. Having to look at everything from their ruthless point of view to determine how the universe responds to the players actions, etc.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Evil and good are defined by the morality of those who define them. The universe and nature is amoral, there is no good or evil.

I disagree. Slavery is evil. It doesn't matter if other people think that it is not. It is an objective fact.

In your moral framework no, in their moral framework they consider themselves to be a good person. There is no fundamantal good or evil, the distinction is always subjective.

How they delude themselves has no basis in reality. People always try and use morality to justify doing the most horrible things to other humans.

Not in a culture that says being ruthless is good for society while being caring is a sign of weakness and will damage society.
You are applying your moral view point because you consider it to be "true".

If you do not care, you do not have a "society" Society is about working together and caring for your community, especially those with the largest disadvantages.

“Our society must make it right and possible for old people not to fear the young or be deserted by them, for the test of a civilization is the way that it cares for its helpless members.” -Pearl Buck cerca 1932

All property is theft, it belongs to the collective. This is what good people think.

I know lots of good people, none of them believe that.

Both Stalin and Mao considered themselves to be the good guys, do you think Hitler considered himself to be evil? Or Gengis, or Truman?

What they think is irrelevant. They were evil. Plain and simple. Their "feelings" on the subject do not matter. If you do evil, you are evil, regardless of your justifications for it. Even choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil.

Ah, the politics of envy, they have stuff, I don't, I should be able to take it because I am a good person and they are evil...

Envy is evil. Pretty sure that is why it is one of the Commandments. "Thou shalt not covet..." etc etc...

Morality is not subjective. Believing it is automatically puts a person in the "not a good person" category. Believing it is okay to enslave some people or send some people to gas chambers, or glass entire planets, etc. Those things are objectively wrong.

 

[Sigtrygg]

By "flesh out" I mean writing and running evil NPCs and organizations. Having to look at everything from their ruthless point of view to determine how the universe responds to the players actions, etc.

They are not evil, they just have their own interests that do not include being nice to your world view.

 

[Condottiere]

Her mind is Tiffany-twisted, she got the Mercedes-Benz, uh
She got a lot of pretty, pretty boys that she calls friends
How they dance in the courtyard, sweet summer sweat
Some dance to remember, some dance to forget
So I called up the Captain, "Please bring me my wine"
He said, "We haven't had that spirit here since 1969"
And still, those voices are calling from far away
Wake you up in the middle of the night just to hear them say
"Welcome to the Hotel California
Such a lovely place (such a lovely place)
Such a lovely face
They're livin' it up at the Hotel California
What a nice surprise (what a nice surprise)
Bring your alibis"
....
Mirrors on the ceiling, the pink champagne on ice
And she said, "We are all just prisoners here of our own device"
And in the master's chambers, they gathered for the feast
They stab it with their steely knives, but they just can't kill the beast
Last thing I remember, I was running for the door
I had to find the passage back to the place I was before
"Relax, " said the night man, "We are programmed to receive
You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave"

 

[MasterGwydion]

They are not evil, they just have their own interests that do not include being nice to your world view.

Yes, they are, because buying a second yacht or a palace on one of your fiefs when your people are dying of disease and starvation or being imprisoned for no crime other than talking bad about the person in charge? Explain how that isn't evil. If you care more about yourself than you do about your neighbors, you are evil. Taken to an extreme, it becomes evil. Civilization exists to care for it's people, not to exploit them for personal gain.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I disagree. Slavery is evil. It doesn't matter if other people think that it is not. It is an objective fact.

In your opinion. For the majority of world history slavery was not only perfectly acceptable it was considered part of the natural order. Slavery is still practiced in the world today, and at least one major world religion doesn't consider it evil since it is allowed according to the rules as laid out in their holy book - a book which can not be interpreted.

How they delude themselves has no basis in reality. People always try and use morality to justify doing the most horrible things to other humans.

How do you know your morality is good? What do you base it on? They would consider you to be deluded. Only chritianity preached do unto others as you would have them do unto you, modern atheists hate it when you point out that the majority of theri human rights are actually christian values and without christ there is no authority to back them up, certainly no world government has the authority.

If you do not care, you do not have a "society" Society is about working together and caring for your community, especially those with the largest disadvantages.

There are many societies that get along quite happily that place no value on individual human rights and are quite happy to kill millions if it achieves the societal goals. Often in the most brutal fashion.

“Our society must make it right and possible for old people not to fear the young or be deserted by them, for the test of a civilization is the way that it cares for its helpless members.” -Pearl Buck cerca 1932

In Canada caring for the elderly, the disables, the mentally ill consists of signing them up to MAID as soon as possible...

I know lots of good people, none of them believe that.

Then they are not good marxists.

What they think is irrelevant. They were evil. Plain and simple. Their "feelings" on the subject do not matter. If you do evil, you are evil, regardless of your justifications for it. Even choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil.

Who defines evil? The tiger that eats a child? Good and evil are subjective, they are cultural constructs. You are taught what is good and evil.

Envy is evil. Pretty sure that is why it is one of the Commandments. "Thou shalt not covet..." etc etc...

So to be good we have to follow a religion, interesting... how about if that religion says that the best thing you can do is take slaves and cut their hearts out to placate the sun...

Morality is not subjective. Believing it is automatically puts a person in the "not a good person" category. Believing it is okay to enslave some people or send some people to gas chambers, or glass entire planets, etc. Those things are objectively wrong.

Morality is subjective, their is no universal good nor evil. So you place me in the not good category because I don't believe the universe has alignments?
They are wrong according to your morality, to other cultures they are not. There is no fundamental good or evil in nature.

 

[MasterGwydion]

In your opinion. For the majority of world history slavery was not only perfectly acceptable it was considered part of the natural order. Slavery is still practiced in the world today, and at least one major world religion doesn't consider it evil since it is allowed according to the rules as laid out in their holy book - a book which can not be interpreted.

How do you know your morality is good? What do you base it on? They would consider you to be deluded. Only chritianity preached do unto others as you would have them do unto you, modern atheists hate it when you point out that the majority of theri human rights are actually christian values and without christ there is no authority to back them up, certainly no world government has the authority.

There are many societies that get along quite happily that place no value on individual human rights and are quite happy to kill millions if it achieves the societal goals. Often in the most brutal fashion.

In Canada caring for the elderly, the disables, the mentally ill consists of signing them up to MAID as soon as possible...

Then they are not good marxists.

Who defines evil? The tiger that eats a child? Good and evil are subjective, they are cultural constructs. You are taught what is good and evil.

So to be good we have to follow a religion, interesting... how about if that religion says that the best thing you can do is take slaves and cut their hearts out to placate the sun...

Morality is subjective, their is no universal good nor evil. So you place me in the not good category because I don't believe the universe has alignments?
They are wrong according to your morality, to other cultures they are not. There is no fundamental good or evil in nature.

If you believe that there is no fundamental good and evil, we cannot have a discussion. It is impossible to discuss morality with people who have none. If you believe that enslaving other people is not evil, then We cannot have a discussion. If you believe that a "society" that has no care for those who live within it is a civil society, then we cannot have a discussion. If you believe that morality is subjective, than we cannot have a conversation. If you cannot understand the difference between light and dark, then how can you define a "Dark Imperium". If you think that China's One Child policy is not evil, then we cannot have a conversation. If you think Hilter gassing millions of people wasn't evil, then We cannot have a conversation. IF you think the US nuking Japan, not once but twice, wasn't evil, then We cannot have a conversation.

Evil is pretty black and white. Morality is objective, not subjective. Just because people used to consider stoning other people to death for wearing different kinds of fabric together, does not make it non-evil. Those people were evil and just wanted an excuse to do evil, because it is easier to be evil than to be good.

I want to be a good person, but I cannot make that claim. I have taken the lives of others in war. The reason doesn't matter. Killing people is not a good act, it is merely an expedient act. Sometimes it is necessary, but having done so, I have forever given up the ability to call Myself a good person. I give to those who have less than myself, usually not money since I do not have much of that, but I raise animals for food and any extra I have, I give to those who do not. I could sell it, but if they had money to buy meat, they would have already done so. So, I give it to people who need it for free. This is one of the reasons why I do not have a lot of cash.

No matter how many good acts that I do, I will never be a good person. If We ever actually do have a good and moral society, I will not be able to live there. My past evil acts preclude that from occuring. Also, because I would commit the same evil again if I had to fight another war. So, I can not claim to be a good person. I just do the best I can while acknowledging the simple truth, "I have strayed from the moral path and if needed would stray again." That is not the mark of a good person.

 

[actionman]

I don't know that Bland is intended to be sympathetic. He's the protagonist, but that's hardly a reason to think he's the good guy. I mean, the main character of The Stars, My Destination and plenty of other novels is surely not anyone you'd want to know.

There's a fair bit of interesting insight into the Marc's vision of Third Imperium, though some of it is definitely not compatible with how it is presented in the the game books. It's darker and more mystical than how its usually portrayed in the game books or how I prefer for gameplay.

They Third Imperium of the published game materials is dystopian, but how noticeable that is depends very much on what planet you live on. It isn't intended to be grimdark. Even Marc's novel isn't grimdark. But the Imperium was a distant, tired empire with little restraining local power and nothing restraining Imperial power if it did show up. Many of the worlds have really awful planetary governments and the Imperium doesn't care. The Emperor's wealth and power comes from trade, so there is some effort to keep trade functioning, both in terms of restraining planetary governments and somewhat limiting the worst impulses of the megacorporations. It isn't any sort of enlightened freedom loving country, though.

There's no evidence the Imperium remotely cares about the needs of its citizens. It cares about the needs of its oligarchs, who are all bound up in the interstellar economy. Not as explicitly as in DUNE, but that's what matters to the Imperium. Strephon might be a nice guy, but only in a sort of generally "wouldn't it be nice" sort of way. He's certainly not spending any time thinking about improving the lot of the residents of all the hellworlds and tyrannical planetary governments in the Imperium.

Excellent summary.

 

[actionman]

There's nothing to flesh out, just ignore the friendly Imperium veneer of the propaganda and look at the reality.

Which is the point of this thread.