Thoughts on the Dark Imperium

[Bense]

I find this a very disingenuous statement by Loren, and it is noticeable that no other subsequent version of Traveller had the sales or the following or classic, perhaps they became too sophisticated?

More likely the classic Traveller had very little competition. No video games to speak of, nor any other real alternative sci-fi RPGs when it was published.

Zhodani - no one is made to be happy, the Zhodani take mental illness such as anxiety and depression very seriously and have methods to treat them beyond just drugs and counseling

By making them happy in their station in the Consulate, regardless of what that station is. Only psionic powers allow progression in their society, and psionics are an accident of genetics.

Vargr - the Julian Protectorate says hello, there have been many governments that have lasted centuries

The Julian Protectorate of course is only half Vargr.

K'kree - there is no crusade, and if they are going to exterminate all meat eaters why are they not attacking the Imperium rather than trading?

Because the war with the Hivers taught them that for the moment they are outmatched.

Hive - manipulations are a rumour, the psionic suppressions did happen

The Hivers grant "Manipulator" as a publicly-held title.

Solomani - most in the "Solomani Sphere" are actually from the confederation and have never had the racist movement started by the Syleans and certainly don't have the second class citizen trope

All mentions of the Solomani Movement and the Solomani mention the Solomani's racism, though some make it appear better than others.

Can you give an example of one that isn't?

I don't think any government is amoral, actually. The people running a given government may well be. In my opinion most of the world's governments are run by generally moral people, with some stand-outs.

There are no laws governing the Imperium, it is fiction. The laws were invented much later by fans and fanon became canon as these ideas were adopted by GT and T4. They do not stand up to scrutiny though. I think the first sign of this was the Ministry of Justice presented in JTAS.

Written laws are mentioned in the earliest sources about the Third Imperium. Adventure 1: The Kinunir mentions Imperial Edict 97 in its Library data section, "This executive order is the enabling act for the use of Imperial warrants. Unusually obscure for such a wide ranging and powerful edict, it is nonetheless on file at all Imperial installations. The edict text runs to 34 pages..."
In other words, it's a written law.

 

[actionman]

but they are the result of ex-Imperial jackoffs whining all day about how oppressed they are by the existence of other humans.

Something I've thought about sometimes is how long the Solomani aristocrats lived after they arrived in the Sphere. With anagathics, they could've lived many many years. The Solomani Sphere's anti-Imperial stance could've been created by them, the Rim War could've been carefully arranged by them, and then carried out by their sons, all as a long term plan of revenge. Once blood was spilled, the populations of the Sphere would polarize and solidify in those positions. Then it wouldn't be about the former Solomani aristocrats' resentment of Zhakirov, it would be about the Sphere's Solomani hating the Imperium, and by extension Vilani, Vegans, and non-Solomani, because of the war.

 

[MasterGwydion]

More likely the classic Traveller had very little competition. No video games to speak of, nor any other real alternative sci-fi RPGs when it was published.

This is true.

By making them happy in their station in the Consulate, regardless of what that station is. Only psionic powers allow progression in their society, and psionics are an accident of genetics.

Anyone can have psionic powers. Simply test before the first term and roll the stat. Now everyone has a PSI score. Throw in some training and you have everyone being a psion, although many are extremely low-powered psions.

Also, could you point Me to where it says that psionics are genetic? This has come up on the boards before and pretty much every time, it was determined that psionics have no genetic basis. So, if you could cite a source for Me, that would be a great help.

I don't think any government is amoral, actually. The people running a given government may well be. In my opinion most of the world's governments are run by generally moral people, with some stand-outs.

All governments are immoral, just like all rocks are immoral. You have to have empathy to be moral. Non-sentient entities, such as governments and rocks cannot feel empathy. So, by definition, cannot be moral. They can follow a moral code, but this is just copying behavior, not actually having morals.

Written laws are mentioned in the earliest sources about the Third Imperium. Adventure 1: The Kinunir mentions Imperial Edict 97 in its Library data section, "This executive order is the enabling act for the use of Imperial warrants. Unusually obscure for such a wide ranging and powerful edict, it is nonetheless on file at all Imperial installations. The edict text runs to 34 pages..."
In other words, it's a written law.

Consider Imperial Edicts more like Executive Orders. An Executive Order is not a Law. They are official interpretations of how to view the Imperial High Laws, which have been stated to be sufficiently vague as to be able to mean whatever the Emperor at the time wants them to mean. Other sources have stated that the only Imperium-level laws that actually exist within the Imperium are the High Laws.

 

[Condottiere]

You can't control empires the size of the Imperium, without institutions.

It's when institutions are corrupted and destroyed, that empires decline.

If you assume that part of the duties of the nobility is the supervision of tax collection, they probably have estimates for expected taxes a decade in advance.

Of course, what happens when collection exceeds the annual estimate.

Rebates?

 

[Vormaerin]

Written laws are mentioned in the earliest sources about the Third Imperium. Adventure 1: The Kinunir mentions Imperial Edict 97 in its Library data section, "This executive order is the enabling act for the use of Imperial warrants. Unusually obscure for such a wide ranging and powerful edict, it is nonetheless on file at all Imperial installations. The edict text runs to 34 pages..."
In other words, it's a written law.

Executive Orders by the US President are not laws, but they do have authority. The Imperium doesn't have any lawmaking body. The Moot isn't one, though it advises the Emperor and suggests policies. The Emperor rules by fiat, which is the opposite of rule of law. He has to take into account the interests of the stakeholders, namely the megacorps and the imperial nobility. But there's no legislature.

 

[actionman]

@Sigtrygg

Here we go, from The Traveller Adventure, pg. 143: An Imperial noble is the head of a planetary government.

Marquis of Aramis: Title grantedin 631 by Empress Arbellatra to Marova hault-Hayashi in recognition of her services to the lmperium in the Second Battle of Zhimaway. The current Marquis, 19th of the line, is Leonard Bolden-Tukera. The Marquis is titular head of the world government of Aramis; he owes direct fealty to the Count Knowln of Celepina. The Marquis is married to theLady Arianne Tukera, heir to a large block of Tukera Lines stock.

There we have it. Imperial nobles can rule worlds.

 

[Vormaerin]

Yes, but it is also clear that he was already the dominant oligarch of Aramis and used his power as an Imperial noble to solidify that. He's not ruler of Aramis by grant of the Emperor. He the ruler of a Aramis who got an Imperial title for services in the Battle of Zhimaway.

 

[Bense]

The point at which the Imperium became definitely the good guys is probably JTAS 9, when the Fifth Frontier War began. That's long before GURPS Traveller.

Yes the Emperor sets the laws and needs no input from the Moot, but they are laws by any reasonable definition. The fact that the Third Imperium is not a democracy doesn't mean the Emperor can do anything he wants.

 

[Vormaerin]

No, "the Emperor can do anything he wants" is pretty much the definition of Autocracy. The limits on his power are mostly whether someone like Dulinor will shoot him over it. There's literally the Imperial Edict 97 that says "this person can do anything they want because I said so". Like declare themselves Archduke. Or shoot an admiral in the knees and have him forcibly installed with cybernetics that allow a personality overlay. Or scrub an entire planet of all life.

So what exactly is it that the Emperor can't do?

 

[actionman]

The Emperor rules by fiat, which is the opposite of rule of law.

Theoretically the Emperor could spend an afternoon saying "Edict 37 is cancelled. No it isn't. Yes it is. No it isn't."

And edict is a decree or proclamation with the force of law, meaning compliance is mandatory. An Imperial policy, like no slavery or no nukes used in planetary wars, is only a law (a rule of conduct or procedure established by custom, agreement, or authority) because the Emperor says it is. As @Vormaerin mentioned, the Imperium has no legislative body. The Imperium is ruled by the Emperor's fiat or decree, backed up by his fleet admirals. Even longstanding Imperium policies they're all just decrees, changeable by the Emperor whenever he feels like it. And, if the Emperor says "don't enforce this law in this particular case" or "don't enforce this law if this person or this group of people (fiefholders, dukes, Imperial Marines, fleet admirals, a band of scruffy poors on a mission for Duke Norris) are the ones violating it", then that's the Emperor's decree, and then that's the law.

Consider this. The Emperor can take anything from anyone at any time, or give anything to anyone at any time. The Emperor can make the lowest pleb the highest noble and make the highest noble the lowest pleb. The competition for the Emperor's favor must be intense.

In the sector and subsector courts, I suspect rule by ducal decree is how things are run, except if it violates an Imperial decree. Court scribes probably have detailed records of Imperial decrees, and ducal decrees at lower noble courts, and dukes and fiefholders probably hold councils with learned scribes to determine if what they want to do violates any higher decrees. By the time a noble ascends to dukedom, he probably has an encyclopedic knowledge of Imperial decrees.

But, it's still rule by decree at the ducal courts, and the courts of planetary fiefholders. There's nothing but decrees.

I suppose the saying, "If no one knows, then no one can care." goes a long way in the noble courts of distant subsectors.

IMO, even sector dukes would have no small amount of consternation when Core Fleet, the Emperor's Own Sabre, makes a "goodwill tour"

 

[actionman]

The fact that the Third Imperium is not a democracy doesn't mean the Emperor can do anything he wants.

The fact that the Third Imperium is an absolute monarchy means the Emperor can do anything he wants.

 

[actionman]

Yes, but it is also clear that he was already the dominant oligarch of Aramis and used his power as an Imperial noble to solidify that. He's not ruler of Aramis by grant of the Emperor. He the ruler of a Aramis who got an Imperial title for services in the Battle of Zhimaway.

But it says the current Marquis is the 19th of the line, and also the titular head of the planetary government. It was his ancestor who got the title from Arbellatra in 631. The current Marquis inherited his noble title, yet he is still the titular ruler of the planet.

 

[Bense]

Also, could you point Me to where it says that psionics are genetic? This has come up on the boards before and pretty much every time, it was determined that psionics have no genetic basis. So, if you could cite a source for Me, that would be a great help.

I was being imprecise. I meant that psionic potential is inborn, not determined by any other known factors.
The Zhodani culture deciding that psionic potential means automatic elevation to the noble class means that people with no inherent leadership ability become leaders.

All governments are immoral, just like all rocks are immoral.

Rocks are amoral, not immoral. Amoral means "lacking a moral sense". Immoral means "not conforming to standards of morality".
Governments nearly always try to appear to be conforming to the moral standards of their people, and usually the majority of the people working for the government do conform. Therefore governments are usually moral.

No, "the Emperor can do anything he wants" is pretty much the definition of Autocracy. The limits on his power are mostly whether someone like Dulinor will shoot him over it. There's literally the Imperial Edict 97 that says "this person can do anything they want because I said so". Like declare themselves Archduke. Or shoot an admiral in the knees and have him forcibly installed with cybernetics that allow a personality overlay. Or scrub an entire planet of all life.

So what exactly is it that the Emperor can't do?

Just what you said - he can't do anything that will lose him the support of the nobility. If he goes too far they may remove him through the Right of Assassination. The Moot also has the powers both to confirm the emperor and to dissolve the Imperium. As I said, the system works well if most of the nobles are honorable and genuinely concerned with the welfare of their subjects.

All the examples you're mentioning there occur during crises where immediate action is required or literally billions of people will die. Emergency situations, in other words, where having an autocratic government can be a virtue. Norris won the Fifth Frontier War Jonathan Bland saved billions of lives each time he ordered a world scrubbed.

 

[Geir]

So what exactly is it that the Emperor can't do?

Piss off people who have a non-zero probability (in values of non-zero that exceed freak accident odds) of assassinating him.

 

[Arkathan]

Rocks are amoral, not immoral. Amoral means "lacking a moral sense". Immoral means "not conforming to standards of morality".
Governments nearly always try to appear to be conforming to the moral standards of their people, and usually the majority of the people working for the government do conform. Therefore governments are usually moral.

The people in the government only hold to the moral values of those to whom they are accountable to. They act with impunity when they believe that they are not accountable. Elected officials conform to the values of those who they believe voted for them and those who pay for their campaigns. These values are often at odds with the moral values of the majority of the country.
Unelected bureaucrats and judges may act against law and Constitution, while adhering to the moral beliefs of the 20%.

 

[Arkathan]

Piss off people who have a non-zero probability (in values of non-zero that exceed freak accident odds) of assassinating him.

Clearly, in light of evidence from possible futures, the Emperor CAN do that... just not without significant risk.

 

[actionman]

he can't do anything that will lose him the support of the nobility.

The support of the sector fleet commanders, really.

 

[actionman]

Clearly, in light of evidence from possible futures, the Emperor CAN do that... just not without significant risk.

The Emperor can do anything he wants. He just needs to be prepared for the consequences.

 

[Bense]

The Emperor can do anything he wants. He just needs to be prepared for the consequences.

That's true of everyone.

 

[Condottiere]

1. Custom and/or tradition.

2. Precedent.

3. Magna Carta.