The volume of weapons

[locarno24]

Was having a conversation on friday with one of the players who is looking at doing some serious conversion work on a locally-built freighter, looking to build a q-ship analogue for some purposes best not discussed in too much detail*.

Anyway, I was looking at the rules for the turret mounts and wanted to double-check that I was reading it right, because as soon as you say 'the rules mean such-and-such', you immediately find yourself wanting someone to confirm that:

1) If I understand it correctly, a basic turret is 1 dTon, regardless of how many weapons it mounts, plus 1 dTon of fire control.

2) There is no such thing as a 'Pop-up turret', rather you buy any standard turret and apply the pop-up upgrade to it.

Pop-Up is a quality that can be applied to any type of turret

The cost increasing by 1 MCr is obvious, but is the 2 dTon the new volume of the turret (which I'd assumed as there was no plus sign) or the increase in volume of the turret?

3) Does fixed mount work the same way - as a 'downgrade' to a turret? Again, if so does that mean it's 0 dTons or just that the cost-reducing change doesn't change the volume?

4) If I buy high TL weapons, I can spend over the standard cost to reduce the volume. Assuming a +3 TL, does this mean the turret is reduced to 0.6 dTons or both the turret AND the associated fire control are reduced to a total of 1.2 dTons?


* For the irredeemably curious it involves a trade run across the sword worlds border, two semi-government sanctioned privateers, an object about the size of a coffee mug, an ancient-made, high-density battery and a herd of creatures with a distinct resemblance to the terrestrial aardvark.

 

[AndrewW]

The 1 ton of fire control is already included in the table. So it's just the 1 ton per turret, doesn't matter if it's single, double or triple. Pop-Up turrets have the 1 ton of fire control included as well, but also take up some internal space so those are 2 tons total.

Usually the weapon upgrades for turrets don't apply to the fire control (a large bay for example could be reduced from 100 tons to 60 tons but still has 1 ton of fire control either way).

 

[Captain Jonah]

Turret hardpoints take up no volume, any size of turret needs a firecontrol which takes one ton regardless of how big or small the turret is.
Pop up turrets take up 1 Dton of space in the ship and the normal one ton for fire control hence two tons for a pop up. On ship plans the one ton of the actual turret needs to be where the turret.

A pop up turret is not a standard turret in that while it works the same way when out it is built as a jack in a box mount and therefore needs to fit inside the hull so no laser barrels sticking out, power or magazine feeds need to be able to move in and out with the turret etc.

Weapons in turrets are, technicaly, outside the ships volumes and take no space, with a pop up turret they fit inside the one ton of the turret. No need to reduce size for turret weapons, use the high tech advantages on the improvements in high guard.

Fixed mounts tend to be set inside the hull or in a pod with only the barrel or launch door being open. As they do not move, rotate etc they have no need of fire control but are limited to weapon hardpoints to prevent people doing the 100 dton scout with 10 fixed mount lasers in the nose

Adding a popup turret on a weapon hardpoint (Areas of the hull reinforced and with power feeds etc) requires some engineering work it a shipyard, its not the sort of thing you can do for yourself.

Depending on the ship being modified you may also have to change the internal layout which will take more time and money. For example a Free trader on page 117 has two turrets, the belly turret is at the back of the cargo hold and you can easily tuck in the one dton of space here, the dorsal turret is at the back of the passenger deck and will require taking about half a dton from each of the rear staterooms

Trade run across the sword worlds, privateers, your infamous ancient tech coffee mug, batteries. All fine, no problems there.
ARDVARKS..... Thats just too weird :shock:

 

[rinku]

If the ship design isn't a common one, you could go the cheap option and cover the turrents with fake superstructure. Wouldn't stand up to re-entry or close examination, but might fool someone who didn't know what the ship was meant to look like in the first place. You'd probably need to demount and remount it for jumps, too.

 

[locarno24]

No need to reduce size for turret weapons, use the high tech advantages on the improvements in high guard.

Blowing up privateers who aren't expecting it doesn't really require high yield weapons. Pulling out triple particle mounts tends to do the job on any broadly-speaking-civilian ship.

Making concealed weapons take up less volume (and hence be more easily concealed) is of significantly more use. Hence the question on whether the fire control system would be reduced in volume. There is a fair chance that the ship will be (quite legally) boarded for inspection, and whilst the inspectors probably won't know the internal layout, and won't be coming over with tape measures to go over every inch unless they start acting suspiciously, the less the players can screw up the internal layout, the less likely the pop-ups are to be noticed (we're only talking two pop-up weapons in a big, 700 dTon long ranged merchant).

Trade run across the sword worlds, privateers, your infamous ancient tech coffee mug, batteries. All fine, no problems there.
ARDVARKS..... Thats just too weird :shock:

The othdee isn't actually an aardvark, it just looks like one. Unfortunately the players have assumed that it therefore behaves pretty much like one and not bothered to ask anyone with any zoological background about them when an associate contracted them to carry some 'breeding stock' across the border.

 

[Captain Jonah]

No need to reduce size for turret weapons, use the high tech advantages on the improvements in high guard.

Blowing up privateers who aren't expecting it doesn't really require high yield weapons. Pulling out triple particle mounts tends to do the job on any broadly-speaking-civilian ship.

Making concealed weapons take up less volume (and hence be more easily concealed) is of significantly more use. Hence the question on whether the fire control system would be reduced in volume. There is a fair chance that the ship will be (quite legally) boarded for inspection, and whilst the inspectors probably won't know the internal layout, and won't be coming over with tape measures to go over every inch unless they start acting suspiciously, the less the players can screw up the internal layout, the less likely the pop-ups are to be noticed (we're only talking two pop-up weapons in a big, 700 dTon long ranged merchant).

Pbeams are all well and good but unless you have class 6 weapons permits the 3I and many another moderate to high law level Goverment you encounter will drop you in prison and take your ship. Something about them being weapons of area irradiation

Pop Up Turrents need to take up ship volume, it doesn't have to habitable volume. With a fairly big non standard ship you could tuck them into areas of the hull full of fuel and structural supports which you then reinforce and replace any lost fuel somewhere else. If your fuel tank is 10cm deeper across the back of your cargo hold who is going to notice, just make it dirty to hide the new work and use the tonnage freed up on the outer hull to hide the pop ups behind what look like unused inspection panels or hull plates etc. Look at your ships deck plan and look for some good spots on the outer hull where you can tuck in a 1.5 metre deep by 1.5 metre wide by 3 metre long pop up turret frame.

Most of the Modern deck plans use fuel decks but many of the older designs put fuel all round the hull as an extra layer of protection for the crew and cargo. If your deck plan is like that it should be easy to tuck in some pop ups which nestle in the fuel tanks.

Just remember come maint and repair time its a vacc suit job or land on a breathable planet and get out a ladder

With the fire control as long as you have open turrets to explain why you have a weapons console behind the bridge next to the main computer room the extra tonnage of two hidden pop ups is easy to hide. Some will be built into the area round the turret in the form of power feeds, rotation mechanisums etc. The rest, remote control of the turrets, targeting sensors etc can be mixed in with the same from your open turrets and hidden in plain sight so to speak.

The customs guys see a pair of triple beam lasers and the weapon operators desk and can open the inspection panel and look into the sensor and fire control bay of the computer room but without crawling into the bay they cannot tell if it is fire control for 2 turrets, 4 or 6.

As long as they see no where to hide smuggled stuff they will go on with the check.

 

[rust]

As long as they see no where to hide smuggled stuff they will go on with the check.

"Look at this densitometer scan of your ship, and now explain to me the
two strange compartments here and here - and then show me what you
hide there."

 

[Captain Jonah]

As long as they see no where to hide smuggled stuff they will go on with the check.

"Look at this densitometer scan of your ship, and now explain to me the
two strange compartments here and here - and then show me what you
hide there."

What compartments officer, thats solid with electronics and structural supports. See the sensors there and there and the emmiters and rotational mechanisums. Nothing there but a back up sensor and comms aray. No room in there to hide anything and no way to access it anyway unless you want to detach the hull plate which as you can see if securely fixed.
Besides which how are you seeing past the false images the smuggling compartments use to fool your scanner.......

 

[locarno24]

With a fairly big non standard ship you could tuck them into areas of the hull full of fuel and structural supports which you then reinforce and replace any lost fuel somewhere else. If your fuel tank is 10cm deeper across the back of your cargo hold who is going to notice, just make it dirty to hide the new work and use the tonnage freeded up on the outer hull to hide the pop ups behind what look like unused inspection panels or hull plates etc.

That's a good idea. There are a few inaccessible spaces on the ship if you're going to cut open the fuel tanks.

Just remember come maint and repair time its a vacc suit job or land on a breathable planet and get out a ladder

Not going to be a problem. I assure you this ship isn't going to make it to its next maintenance cycle...

 

[AndrewW]

Blowing up privateers who aren't expecting it doesn't really require high yield weapons. Pulling out triple particle mounts tends to do the job on any broadly-speaking-civilian ship.

Ah but you are only allowed one particle beam per turret.

 

[BP]

AndrewW is referring to the HG errata as found here.

Specifically, it updates pg 47:

• Only one particle beam may be fitted to a turret, but this must be a triple turret.

This should also be in the TMB errata, but I don't believe it is...

The rationale - IIRC - is that, without this mod, a triple turret Particle Beam is too good compared to a Particle Bay for a fraction of the cost and tonnage.

 

[AndrewW]

AndrewW is referring to the HG errata as found here.

Specifically, it updates pg 47:

• Only one particle beam may be fitted to a turret, but this must be a triple turret.

This should also be in the TMB errata, but I don't believe it is...

The rationale - IIRC - is that, without this mod, a triple turret Particle Beam is too good compared to a Particle Bay for a fraction of the cost and tonnage.

Or a particle barbette. LBB2: High Guard has this update included.

 

[rinku]

Not to mention them dropping the TL to 8 for both turrets and barbettes. I see this as a mistake and am keeping the original TL14 for particle barbettes and TL15 for particle turrets.

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

Not to mention them dropping the TL to 8 for both turrets and barbettes. I see this as a mistake and am keeping the original TL14 for particle barbettes and TL15 for particle turrets.

Details please! What is the canonical position? As someone only familiar with MonT I have had some problems with Particle Beams (see earlier thread on the topic!). One of the issues has been the compartively low tech that particle beams become available. Hope it wasn't all a misprint!

Egil

 

[Captain Jonah]

Not to mention them dropping the TL to 8 for both turrets and barbettes. I see this as a mistake and am keeping the original TL14 for particle barbettes and TL15 for particle turrets.

Details please! What is the canonical position? As someone only familiar with MonT I have had some problems with Particle Beams (see earlier thread on the topic!). One of the issues has been the compartively low tech that particle beams become available. Hope it wasn't all a misprint!

Egil

Clasic traveller book 5 High Guard page 25 introduced the new weapons with the following: plasma turret tech 10, fusion turret tech 12, Pbeam turret tech 15 and Pbeam Barbette tech 14.

D20 Traveller main book page 272 uses the same tech levels.

MegaTraveller refs book page 73 same values except fot Pbeam turret being tech 14 for a less capable unit then at tech 15 for the more powerfull one.

Gurps was the point where the Tech levels dropped but that was mixed in with the fact that they used non standard tech levels to match the gurps universe not the traveller cannon. For example Gurps tech level 9 was Traveller tech 9-11.

Not checked T4 or T5.

Anyway it seems to have been Gurps that mucked up the Tech levels for the weapons and MonT has used the much lower Gurps tech levels which means you get Pbeam weapnons very early on.

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

Not to mention them dropping the TL to 8 for both turrets and barbettes. I see this as a mistake and am keeping the original TL14 for particle barbettes and TL15 for particle turrets.

Details please! What is the canonical position? As someone only familiar with MonT I have had some problems with Particle Beams (see earlier thread on the topic!). One of the issues has been the compartively low tech that particle beams become available. Hope it wasn't all a misprint!

Egil

Clasic traveller book 5 High Guard page 25 introduced the new weapons with the following: plasma turret tech 10, fusion turret tech 12, Pbeam turret tech 15 and Pbeam Barbette tech 14.

D20 Traveller main book page 272 uses the same tech levels.

MegaTraveller refs book page 73 same values except fot Pbeam turret being tech 14 for a less capable unit then at tech 15 for the more powerfull one.

Gurps was the point where the Tech levels dropped but that was mixed in with the fact that they used non standard tech levels to match the gurps universe not the traveller cannon. For example Gurps tech level 9 was Traveller tech 9-11.

Not checked T4 or T5.

Anyway it seems to have been Gurps that mucked up the Tech levels for the weapons and MonT has used the much lower Gurps tech levels which means you get Pbeam weapnons very early on.

Thanks, massively different tech level from MonT.

Egil

 

[Captain Jonah]

Yep, the MonT restriction on them is the weapon permit levels with Pbeams being a 6 or very very hard to legaly own.

That doesn't help for games outside of the 3I or for cases where your law abiding players in a tech 15 ship get beaten up by a tech 10 corsair with illegal Pbeams in its turrets.

If you are going to get shot for being a pirate the risk of being shot for using illegal Pbeams isn't much of a threat :twisted:

The lowered tech level means that just about any world that can make startships can make Pbeams and sell them as well. It gives you an awfull lot of places to find them illegaly rather than the relatively small number of tech 14-15 worlds in the 3I.

In fact they should be far more common than they seem to be but thats just cannon arming your pirates with the same weapons they had in classic.

If most Vargr worlds can make them and they work why would most Vargr raiders not carry them. They can always derad the cargo back home if need be, or just sell it on without tellin anyone it glows a bit :twisted:

Your clasic 400dton Corsair with two triple beams and two Pbeam Barbettes will make short work of any merchant and even many small security vessels.

 

[Jame Rowe]

I actually like particle beam turrets being lower-tech than 14 or 15. Make the 100 and 50 ton bays TL8 and the turrets TL 10, but lower-tech than 14 and 15.

 

[lastbesthope]

In the other meaning of volume, my PC's Assualt rifle has a dial that goes all the way up to 11 !!!

:lol:

LBH

 

[rinku]

Details please! What is the canonical position? As someone only familiar with MonT I have had some problems with Particle Beams (see earlier thread on the topic!). One of the issues has been the compartively low tech that particle beams become available. Hope it wasn't all a misprint!

Particle beams *do* become available at TL8 in classic Traveller, but only as bays until TL14. From the 1981 High Guard:

100 ton Particle Bay - TL8, improves in rating every 2 TLs
50 ton Particle Bay - TL 10, improves every 2 TLs
Particle Barbette - TL14
Particle Turret - TL 15

Particle spinal mounts start at TL8 as well.

It's worth mentioning too that a PA turret in 1981 HG uses 3 dTons and is slightly more powerful than the barbette. It's not a cut down version of the barbette, but a higher-tech development of the same weapon.

In my mind someone either confused the "available tech level" for the general technology of Particle Accelerator weapons with the specific tech required for the compact versions, or that they thought the weapon tables needed a kick-arse beam weapon in basic.

I agree, however, that PA beams are military weapons, and are going to have similar legal restrictions as nuke missiles, fusion weaponry and Meson Guns. That does *not* mean you can't buy them, just that use will be limited to deep space (i.e. away from population centres and biospheres). No-one's going to much care if you irridate a gas giant or uninhabited rockball, usually. Of course, *particular* governments may impose further rules. Even in the 3I setting, the "rule" that the interstellar government is responsible for deep space only applies within the Imperium itself. I'm sure that the Federation of Arden, for example, considers all of Arden space to be subject to their laws.