The Two Arenjuns

[Supplement Four]

First off, I notice that the city of Arenjun moves, depending on which Zamora map you look at.

Next, Mongoose's adventure Conan and the Tower of the Elephant shows Arenjun as the location of the tower, and Arenjun is called the City of Thieves.

This is echoed in Mongoose's Road of Kings.

Now...

Check out Mongoose's Return to the Road of Kings. Now, all of a sudden, "Arenjun" and "The City of Thieves" are two different places. This book places Arenjun close to the southeastern border of Zamora, near the Koth-Khauran corner.

The book goes on to state that Arenjun is "often confused with the City of Thieves."

The City of Thieves is an entirely different city, located near the Brythunian border. This book says that the Elephant Tower is located in The City of Thieves, not Arenjun.

Hmm...

I think Mongoose needs to pick one and stick with it.



I'm sure this has probably come out of the controversy over the name of "Arenjun" and Howards original intent (and the re-working of his writings and all that).

But...c'mon...contradictory material like this in the rpg?

Who didn't catch that before printing?

 

[rabindranath72]

Yep, noticed this, too. It is REALLY annoying when this kind of contradictions spring up.

 

[Terrible Tim]

I thought Shadizar was the city of thieves (I have not read these suppliments) from memory.

TT.

 

[The King]

Arenjun = city of thieves
Shadizar = city of wickedness

 

[flatscan]

Well, the confusion comes from the pastiches. REH never called the City of Thieves Arenjun. Mongoose went with the pastiche name at first, but Vincent changed that for the Return to the Road of Kings for the Howard purist gamers. I used Arenjun as the city of thieves myself. Do whatever fits your game world. If you do want to go with Arenjun there's a pretty cool fan map here.

 

[VincentDarlage]

But...c'mon...contradictory material like this in the rpg?

Who didn't catch that before printing?

That was a conscious choice by me to reflect updated, modern scholarship of the issue by Dale Rippke, wherein he proved Arenjun (as described by L. Sprague de Camp) and the City of Thieves (as described by REH) couldn't be in the same geographic location and therefore could not be the same city.

I don't see the errata (or contradiction if you will) all that detrimental, as the GM can choose whichever version he likes, but offering updated, corrected material is (to my mind) better than letting incorrect information continue on forever.

To me, getting frustrated at contradictory updates and corrections is like getting annoyed at any kind of errata. The errata, almost by default, contradicts whatever mistake it is correcting. True, I wish I hadn't made the mistake in the original Road of Kings, but I also had no reason (at that time) to suspect L. Sprague de Camp had made such a large error.

I am grateful that Mongoose allowed the corrected material to go through in Return to the Road of Kings, instead of "catching that before printing" and changing things back to their incorrect form. Which is more important - corrected material reflecting modern scholarship (although this causes contradictions), or maintaining incorrect information indefinitely for the sake of consistency?

 

[Supplement Four]

Let's talk about city placement, then.

I just finished re-reading Howard and deCamp's The Bloodstained God (which is an excellent little conan tale packed with action).

For those that don't know, deCamp took a story Howard wrote about Afghanistan, set it in Zamora, and re-wrote the story with Conan as the main character.

It's quite a good little tale of Conan as a thief, with a bunch of backstabbing by wary-eyed companions thrust together by their mutual greed (Conan included).

It is clear, in that story, that Arenjun is on the east side of Zamora, in the hills of the Kezankians. Arenjun has to be close, because Conan and his riding companion, Sassan, leave before sun-up and reach the Kezankians at dawn. The mountains must be only a few hours away on horseback (at night! So, the horses must have moved slow!).

I note, on both the old Lancer maps and the Tor maps, Arenjun is in the lower southeast corner of Zamora.

Shadizar, on these maps, is placed west of Arenjun, in the southwestern corner of Zamora (but not as close to the Karpash as Arenjun is to the Kezankians).

On the official Mongoose maps, Shadizar and Arenjun are no where near these locations.

The map in the 2E rulebook shows Shadizar in central Zamora, near the Kezankains, while Arenjun is also in central Zamora, but closer to the western side of the country. The large map in Shadizar Game Master's Guide shows those same locations.

But...

The map in The Tower of the Elephant adventure module (the one published by Mongoose) seems to disregard the official Mongoose maps and place Arenjun where the Lancer/Tor maps show its placement.

If you look at that map, Shadizar is west of Arenjun (not east, as shown on the official Mongoose maps), and Arenjun is close to the Road of Kings, which cuts through southern Zamora (where as the official Mongoose maps have Arenjun in central Zamora).

I'll also note that the 1989 GURPS version of Conan also supports the Lancer/Tor maps.



My Question: Why has Mongoose set Arenjun and Shadizar in central Zamora? And, why has Arenjun and Shadizar flip-flopped on sides of the country?

From what I've read in The Bloodstained God story, the Lancer/Tor maps are more "correct" than the Mongoose version.

 

[kintire]

For those that don't know, deCamp took a story Howard wrote about Afghanistan, set it in Zamora, and re-wrote the story with Conan as the main character.

Which means that, amusing tale though it is, it is entirely useless for determining the location of that city.

From what I've read in The Bloodstained God story, the Lancer/Tor maps are more "correct" than the Mongoose version.

Circular. You can't use De Camp's placing of Arenjun to support de Camp's placing of Arenjun!

 

[Supplement Four]

Circular. You can't use De Camp's placing of Arenjun to support de Camp's placing of Arenjun!

Ah, a Howard pureist, I see!

I actually like the entire Conan universe--not just the Howard-only stuff. There are some really good (and, admittedly, really bad) Conan tales out there not written by Howard.


Kintire, are you saying that the Mongoose placing of Arenjun is more in line with the Howard stories?

Since Howard wrote few stories set in Zamora, it seems to me that the non-Howard stories set there should be used as a baramoter to place the kingdom's cities.

I know there is controversy over deCamp's Arenjun and Howard's The City of Thieves, but should letters, outside of the fictional published narrative, take precendence over those stories of the Hyborian Age that have been published?

I would think published stories should take precendence over any behind-the-scenes letter. And, I know people will disagree.

 

[Vortigern]

Circular. You can't use De Camp's placing of Arenjun to support de Camp's placing of Arenjun!

Ah, a Howard pureist, I see!

I actually like the entire Conan universe--not just the Howard-only stuff. There are some really good (and, admittedly, really bad) Conan tales out there not written by Howard.


Kintire, are you saying that the Mongoose placing of Arenjun is more in line with the Howard stories?

Since Howard wrote few stories set in Zamora, it seems to me that the non-Howard stories set there should be used as a baramoter to place the kingdom's cities.

I know there is controversy over deCamp's Arenjun and Howard's The City of Thieves, but should letters, outside of the fictional published narrative, take precendence over those stories of the Hyborian Age that have been published?

I would think published stories should take precendence over any behind-the-scenes letter. And, I know people will disagree.

I should think that any Howard source, published or not, should have primacy over anything else in this field. I am not totally against including material from pastiche authors if it is of quality, but allowing it to trump or even sway Howard sources would be ... heresy.

 

[Supplement Four]

I am not totally against including material from pastiche authors if it is of quality, but allowing it to trump or even sway Howard sources would be ... heresy.

Lol.

No doubt, many will agree with you.

But, if you've got a good novel or short story that tells a good Conan tale that grows the universe, it seems to me that the published tale should take precedence over some letter Howard writes to one of his author buddies.

 

[Vortigern]

I am not totally against including material from pastiche authors if it is of quality, but allowing it to trump or even sway Howard sources would be ... heresy.

Lol.

No doubt, many will agree with you.

But, if you've got a good novel or short story that tells a good Conan tale that grows the universe, it seems to me that the published tale should take precedence over some letter Howard writes to one of his author buddies.

If the letter has hyborian age content, I'd think it could also be viewed as a contribution to the universe, however small. And infinitely more reliable and consistent with his other work, I'd assume.

If a good pastiche novel is out there, that tells a good story, I'm all for it. But if it has errors with regards to the greater world, and Howard's work... then those errors should be corrected in the transfer and then the rest that can be salvaged included.

 

[VincentDarlage]

The map in The Tower of the Elephant adventure module (the one published by Mongoose) seems to disregard the official Mongoose maps and place Arenjun where the Lancer/Tor maps show its placement.

My Question: Why has Mongoose set Arenjun and Shadizar in central Zamora? And, why has Arenjun and Shadizar flip-flopped on sides of the country?

If you have followed any of the map discussions on this forum, you will note that Mongoose's maps have problems - largely due to the artists not bothering to read the source material. Heck, the map in Return to the Road of Kings places Alkmeenon and Keshia in Stygia! You may note that the artists continually place the Goralian Hills of Aquilonia in the Cimmeria map, despite all the text placing them in Aquilonia.

My requests for more accurate maps generally get ignored. For placement of Arenjun, Shadizar, and the City of Thieves, I have relied largely on an article called "City of Thieves" by Dale Rippke, who is one of the most knowledgeable Howard scholars I have ever met. Unfortunately, his web site is down until he can find a new host.

 

[Sting52jb]

One of the problems with writing a story that spans multiple books is that you unfortunately will wright some thing that contradicts something you wort earlier and you might not catch it and your editor might not catch it then you have an inconsistency in your established world.

Unfortunately even Howard contradicts himself but not nearly as bad as some authors.

My take on how the map should look is use any maps originally produced by Howard, if they them selves are contradictory use the most current one. After the established map is available then use the Howard stories to place as many cities and geological locations as possible, after this add in the places and geological locations from other authors that don't contradict Howard stories. Next take the ones that contradict Howard and compare them to Howard's locations, If after comparison the other authors location makes more sense then Howard's then use it in place of Howard's.

When i see large map inconsistencies I usually just contribute it to a pore map maker that didn't copy his map properly which is fun for a game given a inconsistent map to the players so they think they may be heading in the right direction but in actuality they are heading to far north and south and stumble upon something they were not looking for.

 

[kintire]

Ah, a Howard pureist, I see!

To a large degree, its true. Not an extremist though!

I actually like the entire Conan universe--not just the Howard-only stuff. There are some really good (and, admittedly, really bad) Conan tales out there not written by Howard.

There certainly are, and I am quite happy with Bloodstained God, for example, as a Conan tale. Many people are dubious about the rewrites, but part of the point of the Hyborian Age was to allow Howard to write historical fiction from different areas of history with one hero. Many of his historical tales feature heroes much like Conan but with different names, and they can fit well as Conan tales. I am also quite happy with some of the pastiches. de Camp gets a lot of stick, and in many cases rightly so, but The Thing in the Crypt is up to Howard's standards.

However, it is in the end Howard's world, and his vision takes priority.

I know there is controversy over deCamp's Arenjun and Howard's The City of Thieves, but should letters, outside of the fictional published narrative, take precendence over those stories of the Hyborian Age that have been published?

Yes. I attribute no weight to published status. And anyway its not just letters: much of the text in Tower of the Elephant strongly implies a westward placing.

You don't have to junk the tale either. Just comment that deCamp has made a translation error from the Nemedian chronicles here... the city in question is not Arenjun, but another Zamorian town.

 

[Sting52jb]

has anybody ever considered that their could possibly be two seperate Arenjun in Zamori, one in the western portion of the country and one in the eastern portion of the country, It would not be unfeasable, as there are many differnt cities with the same name thougout the US, not sure about other countries but it seems very common here.

 

[Tathlum]

There are 7 Stradballys in Ireland. Heck for that matter there are 2 Dungarvans a half hour either side of the city I'm now in.

 

[Supplement Four]

For placement of Arenjun, Shadizar, and the City of Thieves, I have relied largely on an article called "City of Thieves" by Dale Rippke, who is one of the most knowledgeable Howard scholars I have ever met. Unfortunately, his web site is down until he can find a new host.

I've seen your maps, and your placement of Arenjun and Shadizar is about where the Lancer/Tor maps put them.

 

[VincentDarlage]

I've seen your maps, and your placement of Arenjun and Shadizar is about where the Lancer/Tor maps put them.

Then I would argue those are the correct placements. However, I also believe de Camp's Arenjun and Howard's "City of Thieves" are two different cities.

 

[Supplement Four]

Then I would argue those are the correct placements. However, I also believe de Camp's Arenjun and Howard's "City of Thieves" are two different cities.

Out of curiosity, Vincent, what is the "evidence" that the two are different cities? I know of the controversey, but I don't know the details in this specfic case.