The new Starship Operator's Manual is here!
- Thread starter MongooseMatt
- Start date
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
It has to go somewhere, and I don't detect a gadget, gravitationally based or otherwise, onboard Traveller spacecraft, that would fulfill that function.
Giant radiators could plausibly do it, and I look forward to the next age of sailing ships.
Giant radiators could plausibly do it, and I look forward to the next age of sailing ships.
OriginalCaruso
Banded Mongoose
Energy and matter are interchangeable, presumably the hypothesis is a small amount of matter is converted to huge amounts of radiated energy.
Or did I get that wrong too?
Or did I get that wrong too?
WHULorigan
Cosmic Mongoose
I don't think it necessarily does. The handwavium "proposal", to my understanding is either that:
- Waste heat is transferred off the ship via a process similar to the one used in the M-Drive Reaction with the local G-Field: The heat dissipator mutually interacts with the local gravitational field and spreads the heat via the gravitational interaction across other bodies in the system (which increase in temperature an infinitesimal amount relative to mass and distance, while the ship decreases in heat by an equivalent amount).
- Dissipation by conversion to direct gravitational radiation is also another related possibility (though this would theoretically be detectable by Grav-Sensors or GravComm, or possibly Densitometers).
WHULorigan
Cosmic Mongoose
But be aware that there is a second parallel discussion going on in the thread concerning the idea of using vented waste helium from the reactor as a medium to use as an expelled coolant to carry away waste heat.
This is entirely unrelated to the gravitic cooling proposal.
This is entirely unrelated to the gravitic cooling proposal.
Venting helium would leave an exhaust trail or cloud of hot gas, making stealth impossible. Now maybe that is used for normal non-stealth civilian travel, but the gravitic cooling by dumping the heat into other celestial bodies is a way to explain how there can be stealth in space.
WHULorigan
Cosmic Mongoose
Exactly. These are two of the very points being made upthread by Sigtrygg.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
It doesn't.
A ship is a closed system, to remove waste heat you have to do one of two things
- do work to move the waste heat into something that is going to get hotter that you then throw out of the ship
- remove the heat as massless radiation, this is usually elecromagnetic radiation, I am postulating it could also be removed by the gravitcs based systems of a ship by radiating gravitational waves via the same coupling with an external gravitational source already mentioned.
I could handwave Higgs fields (latest research hints that there may be more than one Higgs particle), tachyon (field) condensation and all sorts of mumbo jumpbo, but what I think the SOM authors get right id just the right amount of handwavium
Last edited:
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
I think it is likely to be a combination of both of those.
The coupling between the gravitics on a ship (grav plates, lifter, acceleration compensation, and the m-drive) will allow waste heat to be dumped into the body the ship's gravitics are coupled with, and this will necessitate gravitational radiation/waves.
And yes these could be detected, but here are the potential gaming benefits:
-stealth coatings and EM masking can now make ships very difficult to detect, the sub hunt becomes possible in setting
-gravitic sensors and neutrino sensors have a hard time picking the ship's signature gravitaional and neutrino emissions from the background
-a whole JTAS or companion article could be written to detail this (or referee's can make it up)
-battle damage, sabotage, or malfunction could affect the heat removal system so the crew must find a way to deal with the problem or be cooked inside their own ship
-or don't include it in your universe
Yes I think this is exactly how I'm going to address this, and how I see it working as well. Thanks for the detailed breakdown.
Late to the party...
Pg 23 shows a jump net carrying what look like asteroids for a jump ship class ship listed on page 22.
"Special field cables attached to the rear of the ship extend the ship's jump field to include this additional cargo. Alterations in displacement will affect the size of the jump itself, but the amount of cargo carried can be varied to fit the needs. "
This particular ship could not jump if you need a hydrogen bubble around that which is jumping. T5 goes into detail regarding whether a jump field conforms to the shape of the ship, or is generated as a globe (of sorts) generated by a central Jump drive generator.
The simple truth is - mistakes were made over the 40+ years Traveller has been around with its multitudes of authors who didn't always think things through. Not THEIR fault as what they were writing weren't intended to be iron clad material that would fit all known science possible - nor proof against future advances in Science. Hydrogen Jump fuel seemed cool at the time the game was first released and - that as they say, is that.
Does the average GM care about heat dispersal in deep space? Probably not. Does the Average GM have a degree in sciences? Probably not. Did E. C. Tubbs have a degree in sciences when he wrote his books? Probably not.
As for myself on why I like this book? Ever wonder what to throw at your player characters for when things go wrong aboard a ship? How about a kid who disposes something in the waste pipeline that ordinarily doesn't create much in the way of trouble in a normal environment, but expands out and solidifies when exposed to specific enzymes present ONLY in waste disposal systems? Maybe a woman loses jewelry down a pipe. After seeing what happened recently in Sydney Olympic Park Aquatic Center - how scary would a sudden fire appearing in a stateroom or cargo bay unexpectedly be? I myself utilize GURPS TRAVELLER for my main goto in online gaming with Fantasy Grounds. My one player doesn't want to take hazardous freight for just this reason...
In all, SOM for Mongoose Traveller is a winner. I don't have the time to read it from cover to cover, and I get caught up in other things, but I get to reading the book when and where I can from time to time.
Pg 23 shows a jump net carrying what look like asteroids for a jump ship class ship listed on page 22.
"Special field cables attached to the rear of the ship extend the ship's jump field to include this additional cargo. Alterations in displacement will affect the size of the jump itself, but the amount of cargo carried can be varied to fit the needs. "
This particular ship could not jump if you need a hydrogen bubble around that which is jumping. T5 goes into detail regarding whether a jump field conforms to the shape of the ship, or is generated as a globe (of sorts) generated by a central Jump drive generator.
The simple truth is - mistakes were made over the 40+ years Traveller has been around with its multitudes of authors who didn't always think things through. Not THEIR fault as what they were writing weren't intended to be iron clad material that would fit all known science possible - nor proof against future advances in Science. Hydrogen Jump fuel seemed cool at the time the game was first released and - that as they say, is that.
Does the average GM care about heat dispersal in deep space? Probably not. Does the Average GM have a degree in sciences? Probably not. Did E. C. Tubbs have a degree in sciences when he wrote his books? Probably not.
As for myself on why I like this book? Ever wonder what to throw at your player characters for when things go wrong aboard a ship? How about a kid who disposes something in the waste pipeline that ordinarily doesn't create much in the way of trouble in a normal environment, but expands out and solidifies when exposed to specific enzymes present ONLY in waste disposal systems? Maybe a woman loses jewelry down a pipe. After seeing what happened recently in Sydney Olympic Park Aquatic Center - how scary would a sudden fire appearing in a stateroom or cargo bay unexpectedly be? I myself utilize GURPS TRAVELLER for my main goto in online gaming with Fantasy Grounds. My one player doesn't want to take hazardous freight for just this reason...
In all, SOM for Mongoose Traveller is a winner. I don't have the time to read it from cover to cover, and I get caught up in other things, but I get to reading the book when and where I can from time to time.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Theoretically, less net. more garbage bag, that allows an extension of the hydrogen bubble beyond the immediate influence of the jump drive.
WHULorigan
Cosmic Mongoose
Yes. But this is more for the shipbuilder that wishes to employ the "grid" option with a reconfigurable external payload. The simpler option is to use the "bubble" option and have your jump drive mounted toward the rear of the ship, so that the "center" of the jump-field bubble is in the aft compartment. Then you really do only need a "net" to hold the stuff securely.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
That does bring to mind, exactly how the jump drive is configured and/or shaped.
If it's a skinny pole, does that mean that the jump bubble resembles a sausage?
If it's a skinny pole, does that mean that the jump bubble resembles a sausage?
We'll make that canon.
You quoted my explanation as to how this happens. Granted, it was a brief explanation that you had a quibble with (thus why you quoted it), but I answered this question before you asked it.
Yeah, pretty much - as far as absolute "indefinitely not detectable to sensors under any circumstances" stealth goes. There are other ways to achieve the same result. We had a section on Stealth in Space that addressed this; it got cut, but I'm told it's under consideration for a JTAS article.
Agreed. It is expelling heat. Likewise, spaceships expelling very hot gas/plasma would show up on infrared like beacons.
In terms of scale and application, sure. I meant the basic concept of how the technology works.
It's kind of like saying that a photovoltaic strip on a handheld calculator meant to let it operate off of indoor lights is not even remotely close to a utility-scale solar farm meant to power a city: sure, the scale and application are massively different, enough to affect many particulars, but the basic concept is the same in both cases. For instance, in both cases they are best paired with energy storage to provide power when the light is inaccessible, but the calculator is best paired with simple batteries while the solar farm may have more efficient options.
Unless you're saying that real world refrigerators can't work in the Traveller universe. If that is what you're saying, we'll just have to disagree.
So...I'm not sure how much I'm allowed to quote right now from that under-review-for-JTAS Stealth in Space bit, but I will say that, from the goal you appear to be going for: yes, you would be.
Stealth coatings are useful for delaying how long you are detected - long enough to sneak up on a battle line, get in weapons range, and fire one or a few salvoes that will hopefully cripple any ability to return fire - but not for indefinitely evading a planet-wide sensor net. If the latter is what you want, there are other ways to do it.
Of course, well-trained sensops can be assumed to have been trained in these techniques too. One of the art pieces that was cut had a couple of starport officials on duty, one of which was reading SOM, while the other one pointed out a small ship pretending to be a meteor while coming down far from the starport. The intended implication was the first official's thought: "Really? They are literally pulling one of the tricks in the book?"
I believe this is part of the point of doing PDF months before print: any significant errata, generated by people reviewing the PDF, can be incorporated before the book goes to print.
If you want to type up a revision of any part of SOM and send it to Matt for consideration as errata, please do. If Matt asks my team to review your errata, we will have to wait for your formal submission before we could review it.
That ship would alter its jump field (grid/bubble) to contain the net and its contents.
Yes, this would be rather difficult, requiring specialized systems. This is perhaps the main reason why jump nets cost as much as they do.
Giving people adventure hooks was one of our goals in writing this book.
Thank you.
