The more "Adult" aspects of RuneQuest/Glorantha...
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homerjsinnott
Mongoose
Urox said:
Adept has the right of it, Yelm is a enermy god in the Heortling pantheon and so the heortling would need a positive (and subservient to Orlanth) light/fire deity (as humans rely on it so much), hence we get Elmal, esp since Lodril doesn't figure much in Heortling myth. Also Yelm is the distant sun god, ie as distant as an Emperor is to his subjects.
Urox said:
I wonder if you are trying to be patronising here?
For the most part Orlanthi mythology doesn't mention Yelm at all. The mythology is about "the Evil Emperor" who held fair Ernalda captive.
On an objective level the "Evil Emperor" is Yelm... more or less. He is Yelm from the perspective of a different religion, and very different in character than the Sun King of Dara Happa (called Yelm).
Modern heortlings mostly equate Evil Emperor = Yelm, but the mythologies don't mesh 100%
homerjsinnott said:
Why? Why do the Orlanthi need another god instead of Yelm to be the sun?
First, Yelm IS the sun. Are the Orlanthi just ignorant? Is Aldrya not the mother of plants because she is an Elf goddess? Do they need a different plant god as well? Maybe they should just make up another god for the Red Moon as well? What is wrong with just letting Yelm be the sun and making the Orlanthi deal with it?
According to what I have read the Orlanthi view Yelm as the sun and he ruled in Heaven before Orlanth came. Yelm was arrogant and uncaring. Orlanth pulled him down and put him in his proper place. He killed him and sent him to Hell. Now he must travel the sky by day and travel through Hell at night. Yelm was sent to Hell by Orlanth and was brought back by him. That is why Orlanth is King.
Of course the Yelmites see things differently. But the basic facts remain unchanged. Yelm was the benevolent ruler of the cosmos. Orlanth was jealous and barbaric. He used the power of Death to kill Yelm and was too stupid to realize it's power of the consequences of his actions. Yelm went to Hell and Orlanth finally realized his mistake. Orlanth traveled down to Hell and begged forgiveness for his crime. Yelm was merciful and returned to the sky, but now that the underworld had known his glory he could not completely leave them in the dark, so every night he returns to Hell to light that dark place.
Too different myths, the exact same events. No different gods for the same thing.
Wulf Corbett
Mongoose
And so is Elmal. And Yu-Kargzant. And doubtless dozens of others. Depending on who is defining it.Lord Twig said:
No, everyone else is. Or are deliberately trying to usurp Orlanth's rule.
She is the mother of Aldryami, but not the Orlanthi mother of plants.
They don't need one, Ernalda is the mother of all living things, including plants.
The Red Moon is an enemy Goddess, she is not part of Orlanth's court.
What's wrong with having all these Christians and Bhuddists all worshipping God through Allah his Prophet? That's the right way to do it, after all, you hear it all the time.
You see, while I have every sympathy for wanting to simplify things and have one coherent system within the game, the idea of different cultures worshipping different deities for the same function is, simply, realistic. You don't need 30-odd different sub-cults of Orlanth, but I see no problem rationalising two (or 3, or 4...) different opinions on who is the 'real' sun God. The new setting should please you, anyway, the God-Learners of the Second Age wanted to do exactly what you suggest and pare down the numbers of deities by combining all who served the same function. You can join them.
Wulf
Lord Twig said:
Yelm is the Celestial Orb and the Emperor. Yelmalio is the brightness of the Sky Dome, Ehilm is the purifying solar fire, and Elmal is the light and positive warmth of the sun.
You can say that Yelm is more the archetype sun than the other entities I mentioned, but there is not a monopoly to sun or storm (Storm Bull after all is a storm god, too, even though Orlanth is the god of storm).
Lord Twig said:
Aldrya is not a grain goddess. Ernalda is "mother of the Grain Goddesses", which is saying that the various grain and land goddesses are aspects of her (among the Orlanthi). Yelm is married to the earth goddess (Dendara, also the good wife), Lodril is married to the earth goddess (Oria, also earth mother), and Orlanth is married to Ernalda (earth queen). Eiritha is the earth goddess of Prax (if you want to avoid going into the "spirits and gods" debate), mother and wife of Waha.
Lord Twig said:
The Lunars have been busy doing lots of red moon goddesses (and gods). And the Orlanthi of Sylila have done just that (with the help of the Conquering Daughter), their Sky Bear god (Odayla/Orlanth) has a Moon Bear aspect.
Lord Twig said:
The Hindu religion recognizes a couple of great deities and lots of lesser ones which are reflections of those. Similar in Glorantha. Different aspects or local variations of a deity go about doing a great deed (like slaying a dragon to end the draught), interweaving with a number of other locally known deities. So it can be Vadrus who slays Enkoshons, Orlanth who slays Aroka or Barntar who slays some other dragon, each of whom had swallowed the fertilizing waters (as Blue Woman to Vadrus, Heler to Orlanth, etc).
What you preach is the God Learner approach. It works where they are, for the period chosen for MRQ Glorantha. Still, the benighted locals insist in having their own names, and it takes the glorious God Learners (or wiser-than-thou player characters) to prove them their errors.
It is sort of uncanny that their methods still help them resist the Machine God.
We delve deeper and deeper into post-modern Glorantha, and become less and less relevent to RuneQuest.jorganos said:
When you abstract to a myth such as Sky King, lord of middle air, slew his rival, the Bad Emporer, lord of the upper sky, who had stolen his wife, the Earth Mother, and then apply it across multiple cultures with different gods (not just renamed gods), you really start to lose interest to gamers.
I was re-reading Sun County the other day, and it makes fine sense of all this -- you have the Sun governed by the rival (not enemy) cult of Yelmalio, and you some some 15-odd Sun Dome Temples throught the lands to fill the role of solar diety.
Simply stating that the Orlanthi don't need to worship the sun need not reflect a 'godlearner' approach or a wish to 'oversimplify'.
Not every culture needs to worship every major cosmological or earthbound feature. If certain cultures ally themselves with particular elements - exclusively, even - let them. Sartarite mentality suits the vigorous changeability and rage of the storm pantheon, as opposed to the distant unblinking regularity of the sun and the stars. All cultures can certainly have their own versions / interpretations of major aspects of existence, but it doesn't mean they have to worship them.
Why not have Orlanthi as a culture who eye the sun resentfully, even as they depend on him? Just because they know other cultures worship him means they may prefer to avoid anything other than - at worst - propitiating him. Storm vs Sun - with faith you don't need to hedge your bets and try to get everyone into your pantheon. Who's next? Malia?
For me, the Godlearners are a sneaky critique of both RPGer rule-mongering and inappropriately Terran approaches to comparative religion - an attitude closer to the suggestion that 'all cultures must worship a version of the sun..'
They needn't. Ask the trolls (but not those weird ones in Northern Kralorela).
Not every culture needs to worship every major cosmological or earthbound feature. If certain cultures ally themselves with particular elements - exclusively, even - let them. Sartarite mentality suits the vigorous changeability and rage of the storm pantheon, as opposed to the distant unblinking regularity of the sun and the stars. All cultures can certainly have their own versions / interpretations of major aspects of existence, but it doesn't mean they have to worship them.
Why not have Orlanthi as a culture who eye the sun resentfully, even as they depend on him? Just because they know other cultures worship him means they may prefer to avoid anything other than - at worst - propitiating him. Storm vs Sun - with faith you don't need to hedge your bets and try to get everyone into your pantheon. Who's next? Malia?
For me, the Godlearners are a sneaky critique of both RPGer rule-mongering and inappropriately Terran approaches to comparative religion - an attitude closer to the suggestion that 'all cultures must worship a version of the sun..'
They needn't. Ask the trolls (but not those weird ones in Northern Kralorela).
Personally, I see it as such: The sun is a critical part of ANY surface culture. It is one of the few 'aspects' of the cosmos that one cannot exist without, because all life relies on it in some fashion. The same could be said of Water and Plants.
Now, knowing that the Sun is critical to life, if the Orlanthi culure did not have a sun-aspect they could incorporate as one of their own, that meant there was only Yelm in that role. That also meant that Orlanth knowingly set off to destroy something that was critical to his people's existance. That would make it very difficult for such a culture to stay cohesive, knowing your god set off to do something he knew would kill you.
By having an Orlanthi sun-aspect, Orlanthi culture can justify the act by maintaining that Orlanth mythologically killed the oppresive aspects of the sun (Yelm) while retaining the helpful and respectful aspects (Elmal).
Now, knowing that the Sun is critical to life, if the Orlanthi culure did not have a sun-aspect they could incorporate as one of their own, that meant there was only Yelm in that role. That also meant that Orlanth knowingly set off to destroy something that was critical to his people's existance. That would make it very difficult for such a culture to stay cohesive, knowing your god set off to do something he knew would kill you.
By having an Orlanthi sun-aspect, Orlanthi culture can justify the act by maintaining that Orlanth mythologically killed the oppresive aspects of the sun (Yelm) while retaining the helpful and respectful aspects (Elmal).
If you go back to the source myth, you find that Orlanth killing Yelm was a bad thing that through the cosmos out of order -- where was Elmal then?SteveMND said:
I don't buy the all surface dwellers worship the life-giving sun bit. There is just too much divesity and specificity in Glorantha to apply such generalities outside of a God Learner constructed world view.
The difference between the 'real world' and Glorantha is that gods actually exist and there is concrete proof of their existence. Here on Earth if you want to make up a new sun god, there is nobody to stop you, except maybe other people.
In Glorantha Yelm is real and he exists. If a group of people tried to worship some Elmal aspect they would find that the worship was completely worthless. Who would answer their call for aid? If the god does not already exist one will not spontaneously pop into existence and start handing out spells. No, if you want spells from the sun god you will have to submit yourself to Yelm.
I realize that Greg came up with some Elmal god to 'fill in' for Yelm in the Orlanth pantheon. But I will stick with the original myths and will not worry about all of the changes and new stuff that Greg comes up with. For me that is not fun, it is not what I want my game to be about. I realize that many other people enjoy following Greg's ‘updates’. It is just not for me.
In Glorantha Yelm is real and he exists. If a group of people tried to worship some Elmal aspect they would find that the worship was completely worthless. Who would answer their call for aid? If the god does not already exist one will not spontaneously pop into existence and start handing out spells. No, if you want spells from the sun god you will have to submit yourself to Yelm.
I realize that Greg came up with some Elmal god to 'fill in' for Yelm in the Orlanth pantheon. But I will stick with the original myths and will not worry about all of the changes and new stuff that Greg comes up with. For me that is not fun, it is not what I want my game to be about. I realize that many other people enjoy following Greg's ‘updates’. It is just not for me.
GbajiTheDeceiver
Mongoose
Wasn't Elmal the Orlanthi Yelmalio rather than Yelm, though?
http://www.etyries.com/journeys/elmal.htm
http://www.etyries.com/journeys/elmal.htm
True, but at the time, Orlanth didn't realize that doing so would have the consequences it did (presumably if he did, he wouldn't have done so to begin with). One might also say that if there wasn't going to be an Orlanthi sun-aspect still around, he also wouldn't have done so in the first place. And I'm fine with Elmal being a retroactively-created sun aspect, actually -- both in the writings of Stafford and the culture of the Orlanthi. That's one of the things I always liked about Glorantha -- the mythology was intentionally fluid and was designed to be changed over time (through Heroquests, etc.).
Or Heroquest to find a suitable member to represent that aspect in your own pantheon.
Heroquests don't always have to be a single monumental event, though. Although I have no idea if this could have happened, i can easily see the Orlanthi culture, over the centuries, participating in numerous incremental Heroquests to try and 'create' Elmal in some fashion, as a way of helping to relieve the collective guilt of bringing the Great Darkness down.I disgaree. With many things, yes, but I firmly belive that ANY agricultural community - in real life or in a fantasy world -- will by necessity have to adknowledge, if not outright worship, some form of sun deity, water deity and plant/life/earth deity. Maybe not very strongly, but in some fashion. Glorantha is a mythical world, yes, but we know enough about it to know that crops will not grow without sun and water and earth, just like on earth.
Still, this all goes back to the other comments on similar threads: if you don't like some new aspect of the campaign world, there's no rule that you have to use it.
Wulf Corbett
Mongoose
Sitting on top of Kero Fin shedding what light he could to keep the people safe from the Darkness.Urox said:
Wulf
Wulf Corbett
Mongoose
The simple answer to this is: Too late. The Elmal/Yelmalio/Yelm mess has already been written in to Glorantha, and by the only person who ever can write or re-write the mythology, Greg Stafford. So now all we can do is try and make sense of it, until he decides to re-write it again.ned-kogar said:
There's the fundamental difference. The sun, whoever he is, is GOOD for you, is VITAL to your survival, and your crops. Malia is evil and has to be persuaded or forced to stay away. So, although it's best to keep Malia as an emeny goddess, and maintain that all who worship her are Bad People, it's a bit more hypocritical to say that Yelm is an enemy, but we actually need him, and he's a Good Guy...
Wulf
Wulf Corbett
Mongoose
So, what about Yu-Kargzant, Grazelander Great Spirit of the Sun? Where does he fit in to your abbreviated list of deities? What about the other multitudinous sun deities from around Glorantha?Lord Twig said:
Wulf
Ah, but therein lies the rub. By definition, that worship is NOT worthless, because Elmal exists (according to Stafford; your campaign may vary, of course
)Now, one might give pause: if you decide that for your campaign, Elmal is a more recent addition to the Orlanthi (and not just retconned in), then the question becomes, well, where is that power coming from? An interesting campaign idea right there, methinks.
