The concept of the "State" in fantasy settings

what a brilliant thread with many good points have been reading bernard cornwalls grail series set in the what became the 100 year war between england and france and it was common in the middle ages too have various lords claiming keeps and catles well into enemy lands it was your abilty to back your claim (and who was winning the bigger war) which alone made a claim valid which is very conan,

william the conquerer was also ruler of normandy and other areas so spreading the seeds of the war 8)
 
First I want to point out that Wikipedia is the worst source for any information. It is typically erroneous, and it's important to note that ANYONE can write a Wikipedia entry. Meaning, the guys you're arguing with might have a 10-year-old nephew that wrote the article you're basing your arguments on.

Wikipedia is nice for a quick glance to look up some minor tidbit of information. But basing any opinions wholly on Wikipedia, or using it to support your positions, is absurd and immediately devalues your entire argument.



That said... here's something for everyone:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/maps/1360eur.jpg


Let's see.. I see Kingdom of Naples, Hungary, Lithuania, Kingdom of France, Norway, Burgundy....

Looks like countries and territories to me. So I'm pretty curious as to where this belief that the medieval world didn't have countries comes from.
 
Actually Wikipedia works like human nature, it can be good or bad, there are actual articles that are great, and others that simply are making fun of you... so NEVER totaly trust what you find in the net, and always back it up by books...

We weren´t discussing things in wikipedia, we were asking ourselves if there was a nation concept in Hyboria...

I say there "was", and i must desagree with dunderm... feudalism was very powerfull in that time and it was the dominant model, commoners were under nobles, who were under priests, who were under kings, who were under god...
And thats how it worked for Hyborian kingdoms having some minor diferances between them...

About aquilonia, like I said before, it merged several races, they all had allegiance to aquilonia, but some were not true aquilonians, but were part of aquilonia.

My opinion was that there was a real National identity, wich one must not question, for example if Potians passed the border of Zingara in times of civil wars, the Zingarians would regroup and kick some Potian @$$...
And after they would happilly kill each other for the throne...
 
Here are some sources. Some of you can ignore the first entry.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feudalism
But there is more on what so called feudalism is.
http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/fcurta/Feudalism.html
It is a contentious word invented by the French. But educate yourself.
http://www.historyguide.org/ancient/feudalism.html
I could continue, but that would be feudal.

Let me just say that there are hundreds if not thousands of government forms. The North American Natives (of which I am one), had a very fluid idea of what was their territory. "Borders? You mean those soldiers that are staying at my place?"

People of Conan's time were much more independant, particularly in Aquilonia. In the rest of the world, a lot of people were just enslaved. To my way of thinking, that is not feudalism (as far as that term works). Just because you have Kings, Queens, Counts, Barons, and Knights, does not mean automatically you have feudalism.

Besides, Conan was not even remotely a noble. He was "noble" only in the best of ways a man of that world could be.
 
Actually I live in one of the european countries with the oldest untouched continental borders, and the feeling of "this part is ours" is still very alive.

Part of Hyboria worked in the feudalistic model, even when conan ruled aquilonia, the system was unchanged, "if it works why change it?"

I´m beginning to think that we are discussing Aquilonia Ruling style.
Before conan, it was the normal feudalistic style, commoner works in the nobles land, in reward the Noble is in charge of defending the commoners.
Gunderland and Bossonia had Aquilonian nobles in charge of them, but being trained as soldiers a giving allegiance to Aquilonia, the commoners were able to keep most of the lands for themselves.

Feudalism was more than elaborate than slavery, as both sides, the noble and commoner had obligations to each other... so I easelly see them in the feudalistic model.

And actually having queens, kings and barons doesn´t mean that you need a feudalistic model, england has queen and i think they left feudalism many years ago...

Actually Conan was a very "Noble" but barbaric character.

What we are talking is the real concept behind Aquilonia, and those who ruled it, the civilised nobles, and these would prefer the feudalistic model above all others.

Most barbaric or nomadic tribes would feel more confortable without the feudalistic model, but when they would begin to build a thight society they would have to come up with rules for it.

Why do you see aquilonia as a non-feudalistic land? For me it only makes sence for it to be a feudalistic model were commoners have more freedom than most other countries, but are still tied by their allegiances.

Men were not free, that is the price you pay for being Civilized.
 
Feudalism (as accepted) worked when the "commoner" didn't own a few matchlock guns to blow the brains out from a few "noble" rulers. Commoners never owned their land, all title to the land was in the hands of the nobles. Commoners (what a terrible term, who thinks of themselves as "common"), or serfs (slaves) were left alone as long as they produced food for the nobles and their bullies (knights and soldiers). Do you really think the "nobles" cared one wit about the welfare of the serfs, who could not even participate in their own government?

We all should know better than this by now.

But, might makes right, and the rulers of Conan's world, would definitely prefer the feudal system, or for that matter, any system that kept them on top. But I think Conan saw things a little differently and the "commoners" realized this and fought for him, when they wouldn't have for any of the other nobles when they tried to rally the people after the supposed death of Conan.
 
I thought this thread was about states and countries - not socio-political models.


Aquilonia is definitely based on the model of the Manorial system - what many laymen will simply call 'Feudalism.' There's simply no question there. Every time any description comes up in Howard's works in concerns to how the government functions for Aquilonia - he is describing a Manorial system of government.

The fact that the common people (that is not an insulting term, by the way, even today leaders refer to citizens as "the common people") liked Conan is wholly irrelevant to what system of government was employed.

'The people' liked Henry V. That did not make him any less the King in a country based on the Manorial system.



A few other points:


1.) The existance, and decline, of Feudalism has nothing to do with matchlock rifles. Theoretically, Feudalism could even exist today. It doesn't, of course, because these days we have the much more potent republics and dictatorships.


2.) The fact that peasants could not own land is often looked at as proof of some intangible 'mistreatment' peasants suffered under such systems. Be clear: No 'commoner' -TODAY- can own land in America, theoretically. If you don't believe that, try putting a swimming pool in your backyard if the county doesn't want you to. Even in modern times we are really only -renting- the land that we live on. The only difference here is that we maintain the right to pass that land on to heirs indefinitely, while a medieval commoner could only do the same if none of his lords challenged his right to do so.


3.) Also, the belief that knights were bullies and commoners were mistreated is a myth. It probably happened about as much as police brutality in the U.S. Sure, it happens - but the fact that it happened once in a great while should not be used as an excuse to sully the reputation of an entire group of people - be they knights or United States police officers.

Knights showed disdain for commoners, by and large. That is true. But many politicians and people of fame even today show disdain for the common people. You think Russel Crowe and Axl Rose view you, dunderm, as their equal? Laughable.

However, disdain does not equate to abuse. Knights and their various lords took great pains to care for their people as best they could. It was a matter of survival. If too many peasants die of malnourishment, or must be killed to quell a revolt or uprising, then fields go untended and there isn't enough food for the upper classes, which means there isn't enough food for the peasants, which means even more peasants die, which means even less food - which means the collapse of the entire country.

Medieval noblemen and men of power were not stupid. You treat the people as well as you can because your livelihood depends on them as much as they depend on you.

The fact that modern Americans and other modern members of 'Democratic Republics' are fooled into thinking that they actually have any say over their government should not be used as a measure of medieval forms of government. That's faulty logic. Just because medieval 'nobles' did not bother to fake the peasantry into thinking they had a say in anything does not mean that peasants were being mistreated. The two things are not related.

Take some forms of 'barbaric' tribal structure for example. Many are led dictatorally by a chieftain or republicly by a council of elders or somesuch. In these forms of 'government' the common people of the tribe don't get a say either. That doesn't mean the chieftain didn't care about his people.



Coming back around - when the people thought Conan was dead they went into disarray. It is more apt to say that they didn't rally to any one leader because they didn't know -who- to rally to, or what was going to happen to them if they made the wrong choice. Combine that with a lot of resentment and anger at losing a great leader, and the probability (if untrue) that one of those supposed 'noblemen' murdered Conan. All that considered, it's no wonder the people didn't simply rally behind a lesser lord.

The same thing has happened in real history, as well as the reverse. On the one hand the death of a leader was actually known to cause militias (and currently-employed mercenaries) to be thrown into confusion as to whom they were to follow. In certain circumstances the militias and mercenaries may feel that their leader was betrayed and thus would not be immediately inclined to follow anyone else until the matter of what happened is resolved.

On the other hand, peasants (militias) pretty consistently fought and died for their leaders. In theory, they could have turned on their leaders, and indeed if the situation had been as dire as dunderm proposed - they probably would have. But they didn't. That is telling in and of itself.



Anywho...

Aquilonia is the quintessential fantasy Feudal/Manorial kingdom. As a matter of fact, if you look over the map of Hyboria you will note that most major political systems, from nomadic tribal governments to solid theocracies, are represented somewhere on the map.
 
Don't compare our police force with Knights. If a Knight rode down a few peasants, he usually didn't get charged with murder. Our policemen have to answer for any brutality. Knights generally could get away with it. And sure, nobles cared about their peasants, just as the slave owners of the past in the United States cared, except the nobles did admit peasants had souls.

And yes, all types of governments exist in the Hyboria, that's what makes it so fun to play.

I believe the original question can be answered in several ways.

1) A State exists if a group of people who govern an area have defined it as having certain known borders, and can control this area.

2) A State exists if the people who live there say it does, and can tell you where the borders are.

3) A State exists if a mapmaker draws some lines and convinces everyone that that is the borders of the land.

4) A State exists even if there are no known borders, but enough people say it does.

I'm stopping there, cause even I admit I'm being ridiculous. But my point is: States exist, even if they are a figment of your imagination, and dogs are well aware of borders.
 
I would tend to agree that the real world -did- have clearly defined states and counties. As is the nature of warfare and conquest - borders are bound to fluctuate. That does not mean the state or country is not a state or country.

Fantasy settings have states and countries because the real world had states and countries - and the real world is, of course, the model for our fantasy.



Don't compare our police force with Knights. If a Knight rode down a few peasants, he usually didn't get charged with murder. Our policemen have to answer for any brutality. Knights generally could get away with it. And sure, nobles cared about their peasants, just as the slave owners of the past in the United States cared, except the nobles did admit peasants had souls.

That is utter bunk.

Knights were bound by the law in the same way as everyone else was. Their word may have more weight to it, but if they were to outright murder someone, they would still pay the penalty (note: in most countries murder required a ransom and short incarceration - it did not warrant the death penalty).

You want to know who could get away with ANYTHING? The blacksmith.

Woman: "He raped me, murdered my husband, beat my daughter, and cut off my son's thumbs! I have twenty witnesses!"

Blacksmith: "I make your nails and horse-shoes."

Judge: "Not guilty."


This whole thing about knights being crude bullies that got away with doing whatever they wanted is stupid tripe espoused by people who have no idea what they're talking about. It's a myth. And whether you like it or not, the same myth now applies to police officers. Many people today believe that cops can get away with anything with barely a slap on the wrist. It's not true. Just like it's not true that knights could get away with anything with little more than a slap on the wrist.
 
like the point about blacksmiths they were so vaulable that some were made lame so they stayed as they not the knight were the heart of the village 8)
 
Let's just keep this simple: Knights were just like the Security (red shirts) in a Star Trek (original series) episode. If one shows up, odds are he's gonna die in a little while. In a Conan story, if a knight was getting ready to ride into battle, Conan would yell at the fools to hold the line as the knights insulted non-knightly rabble, then rode into the battle and were obliterated by sorcery or treachery; then Conan had to rally the men.

That's the only near constant in the Conan stories.
 
Right on Bregales! Who the heck really cares anymore? It's ancient history, and I'm sitting cozy at work, and the boss is a thousand miles away.

Poitainian Knights are gallent, and Nemedian Knights are brutes. In my Conan world, maybe not yours.

And in my Conan world I have plenty of states with pretty lines and most of the kingdoms need their rulers usurped by a glorious barbarian.

Let Chivalry and Sorcery live on in our Romantic Imaginations, and lets not worry about how horrible some of our past history was.

Bregales, thanks for your input, I'm out of this one. Besides, I seem to be reading the revised history according to the losers.
 
The topic is excellent. I don't think however that we can compare the hyborian setting with the western world. Many of the fantasy concepts, especially gods and monsters, comes from the ancient time, that is the Mediterannean and the Middle east.
Though Greece was never unified as a nation until Philip and his son Alexander (and then for a very short time) the common foe of the Greeks was already unified as a kingdom (Persia).

The concept of nation wasn't true at that time and before but the idea of kingdoms and empire was very strong and these entities already existed well before 1000 BC. There were the Hittite empire, Egypt (and Nubia and also Lybia before they were conquered by the former) and many short-lived kingdoms in Mesopotamia named after city-states. (Babylone, etc.) and of course China.
These kingdoms stemmed from regional warlords who conquered whole territories. The people there weren't unified behind a nation but behind the name of the current emperor.

In fact the name was not as important as the position because the latter was often a role associated with the gods (i.e. pharoah). Thus the emperor was a chosen of even a son of the gods and it was thus easy to unify people of the same pantheon behind his words.

Thus in the begining of these civilizations many cultures were destroyed and many gods disappeared from memory while others were integrated (for example Ishtar and Adonis, the latter was then integrated in the Hellenic pantheon.

It should be noted that Turan many such empires only existed for a short time (some centuries at most) before they were absorbed by the greater ones which remained in our history. The empire of Turan was such an empire.

It is also very probable that the Picts existed millenias ago as a civilization in the British Isles and on the continent before they were driven away by the Celts because dolmen and other such odd giant stones' arrangment can be found in many places and the druids of the Celts integrated them in their ritual while their own culture evoluted. The main difficulties to learn from these civilizations is that there is no written memories of the Picts cultures (as the Sumerian or the Egyptian) and their Celt conquerors also had practically none as it was limited to the druids which only transmitted verbally their knowledge and most of this knowledge was lost because they suffered from a massive eradition by the Romans (Caesar wrote their were savages who practiced human sacrificed).

Many cultures have existed but only these who could materialize their ideas with words and fix them on hard materials survived time.

It is interesting to note that two of the most ancient civilizations whose languages are still spoken today and whose cultures could survive so many millenaries because there were developped on fixed written materials are represented by the Chinese and the Jews.
It is thus both funny and surprising to realize that a Jew from 2000 AD (no pun intended) could go back in time and talk to another Jew from 2000 BC and still be understood and both would practice the same religious rituals. (I don't know Chinese culture enough to be able to confirm if this is also true).
 
The King said:
and their Celt conquerors also had practically none as it was limited to the druids which only transmitted verbally their knowledge and most of this knowledge was lost .


Whenever I hear about the druids, I think of the great lyricists of the 1980s, known to the world as "Spinal Tap," or simply as "The Tap," and their wise words in the song "Stonehenge" about these mysterious druids:

"No one knows 'ooh they were, or what they were doin' there."

Of course the mystical spell spun by these bards is ruined in the movie (or Rockumentary) by the stupid dwarf dancing around the 10 inch 'Stone Henge' stone made of styrofoam... Haw haw! :lol:
 
Thoth Aw C'mon said:
The King said:
and their Celt conquerors also had practically none as it was limited to the druids which only transmitted verbally their knowledge and most of this knowledge was lost .

Whenever I hear about the druids, I think of the great lyricists of the 1980s, known to the world as "Spinal Tap," or simply as "The Tap," and their wise words in the song "Stonehenge" about these mysterious druids:

"No one knows 'ooh they were, or what they were doin' there."

Of course the mystical spell spun by these bards is ruined in the movie (or Rockumentary) by the stupid dwarf dancing around the 10 inch 'Stone Henge' stone made of styrofoam... Haw haw! :lol:
Oh yeah! :p
 
Thoth Aw C'mon said:
The King said:
and their Celt conquerors also had practically none as it was limited to the druids which only transmitted verbally their knowledge and most of this knowledge was lost .


Whenever I hear about the druids, I think of the great lyricists of the 1980s, known to the world as "Spinal Tap," or simply as "The Tap," and their wise words in the song "Stonehenge" about these mysterious druids:

"No one knows 'ooh they were, or what they were doin' there."

Of course the mystical spell spun by these bards is ruined in the movie (or Rockumentary) by the stupid dwarf dancing around the 10 inch 'Stone Henge' stone made of styrofoam... Haw haw! :lol:

LMAO! Too bad the accent doesn't translate on the Internet. Stone-Enge! Funny stuff!
 
Part of the confusion here is the conflation of the terms country, state, and nation. They are not the same thing. States have been around since settled agriculture and just indicate a particular form of socio-political organization and authority. Nations on the other hand are a more recent concept that indicates the alignment of a state along lines of culture and shared descent. The term is derived from the lation natio which means birth - the notion being that one is born to the nation. The idea of citizenship is also a concept related to the nation-state.

The concept does, of course, have some historical antecedents, particularly the city-states of ancient Greece where in fact the concept of citizenship in the state by right of birth may have originated. So to some extent, the Greek city-states were proto-nationalist entities, and in fact were looked to as examples during the era of nationalism beginning say in the 16th and 17th centuries. But these city-states were not countries.

Another note on fedualism - If you want an excellent example of the feudal system I suggest watching the movie The Godfather. Mafia organizations are essentially fedual systems in which pledges of loyalty to a particular don are given in exchange for the don's protection and patronage. Fedual systems are traditional patrimonial systems meaning that the bonds which tie together the system are personal in nature not formal. This differentiates them modern states. Knights are not the police because they take orders from a particular person not some bureaucratic system. For this reason, feudal systems cannot be nations and fedual subects cannot be citizens - because the ties of loyalty are always local and personal. The rise of modern nationalism was only possible because of the rise of the modern rational bureaucratic system of government.

I am not suggesting that REH was oblivious to these issues. REH was a student of history, and one thing I appreciate about his writing is that he did in fact appreciate these distinctions. But he also fell into a nationalistic way of speaking of these states at times. I think the fundamental reason for this was the conflation of race and nationhood in the popular media and historical research of the time, and REH was prone to thinking of the world in highly-racialized terms.
 
I had to come back cause I really like the mafia feudalism model. Organized crime as government, so what did you expect?

So, we are organized in a lot of ways, and somebody (or group) ends up in charge. A lot of ways our used to insure the members of the organization are loyal to the organization (or person). Sometimes this can simply be an ideal we hold in common (democracy), sometimes it is affinity (love), sometimes it can be fear (death). A State is the "physical" bounderies of an organization, and Nationalism is the bounderies of "loyalty." These often overlap. In some peoples minds they are the same.

I may be wrong, but this is how I simplify the concepts to myself.
 
Strom said:
Thoth Aw C'mon said:
The King said:
and their Celt conquerors also had practically none as it was limited to the druids which only transmitted verbally their knowledge and most of this knowledge was lost .


Whenever I hear about the druids, I think of the great lyricists of the 1980s, known to the world as "Spinal Tap," or simply as "The Tap," and their wise words in the song "Stonehenge" about these mysterious druids:

"No one knows 'ooh they were, or what they were doin' there."

Of course the mystical spell spun by these bards is ruined in the movie (or Rockumentary) by the stupid dwarf dancing around the 10 inch 'Stone Henge' stone made of styrofoam... Haw haw! :lol:

LMAO! Too bad the accent doesn't translate on the Internet. Stone-Enge! Funny stuff!


Haw haw!! Yeah your right, "Stone-Enge" captures the way they said it well. That flick was too funny. And the DVD with the commentary on is funny as hell as well. Haw haw!
 
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