The 16 Book Syndrome

I collect and play rpgs, obviously, and Ive noticed something interesting, and wondered if you experienced the same thing.

When I start collecting a range of books for a system, I mentally shortlist the neccessary books and supplements that I feel as if I'd need to run a successful game. After this, comes a sort of secondary list of things which would be nice to have, scenario books maybe.

Theres only so much rpg money around for most of us, so we tend to stick to the neccessary parts of the list first. Ive noticed however, with my own buying, that there is a kind of saturation point, which occurs when you feel as if you have enough books to make a good long running campaign, and further books just seem like 'more of the same'. My saturation point is around 16 books.

So, say I want to run Conan, I get the rulebook, obviously, and then there are books that I feel I should get, so I can run a good session of the game. These books would be something like Secrets of Skelos, the Bestiary, Players Guide to the Hyborian Age, rules addition stuff (though PGttHA isnt exactly neccessary). After this, I start to look around for a good campaign or scenario book. So I will pick up something like Trial of Blood, Betrayer of Asgard, or something which is outsandingly good like Across Thunder River.

After this, I will get a 'completists' fever, when I try to pick up as much as possible. So comes stuff like Aquilonia, Ruins of Hyboria, etc.

Then, I trail off, and think about other systems. When I actually start to run a Hyborian Age campaign, most of my buying is done. My buying then moves on to something else. And its usually around the 16 book stage. That seems to be the point when I feel comfortable with running a good campaign, I feel as if I have enough material to fall back on, to reference, and Im satisfied enough to start looking elsewhere for something else.

Ive counted up books I own for various systems, and you know what? I have around 16 books for each system I own. Call of Cthulhu, 16 books. Mongoose Runequest, 15 or 17 depending on whether you count the Deluxe edition as 1 or 3 books. Conan, 16 books. Paranoia, 16 books. Ars Magica, 16 books. Harn, 16 books. D&D, 321 books, (but thats an exception!).

I wonder if this is common. I wonder if thats why we get new editions at around this point, a point where sales start to dwindle.

This might all be tosh, just wondering if you have noticed a similar phenomenon.
 
Not I, I have way more than 16 books for Pathfinder by Paizo and several other games. While some others i just bought a few books for and never felt the need to buy more.
 
Dark Mistress said:
Not I, I have way more than 16 books for Pathfinder by Paizo and several other games. While some others i just bought a few books for and never felt the need to buy more.

Ah, you dont say how many Conan books you have, Im willing to bet its around 16! :)
 
I have...

6 books and the GM screen, and I consider these the "bases" to build a good Conan RPG game upon.

Player's handbook
Return to the Road of Kings
Bestiary of the Hyborian Age
Tito's Trading Post
Faith and Fervour

I also have the Compendium.

The rest, really, is all up to us as players and GMs. In these books you have a good idea of what the world looks like, what religions are or were, what stuff people use to kill each other, and a good screen to hide all your devious plots behind.

The rest is really just filler, in my opinion. I don't need prestige classes, or hybrid classes, or the beasty of the week. Hell, Conan's lvl 20, king of Aquilonia, survivor of countess dangers, and he dosen't have a single level in any prestige class.

That's what I want my players to strive for.

And woe betide those who stand in their path. :)
 
Not I I have every Conan RPG book available to date minus the following.

Conan The Atlantian Edition
Catacombs of Hyboria
Warriors Companion
Khitai
and I cant remember if it is Adventures in the Hyborian Age or Betrayers of Asguard that I'm missing

I'm a completest and while I'll take a break from RPG to focus on Miniatures every few months and vice versa I'm the kind of guy that needs everything. I have two full book-shelf's of D20 games, and over 30GB of PDF adventures.
 
Sting52jb said:
Not I I have every Conan RPG book available to date minus the following.

Conan The Atlantian Edition
Catacombs of Hyboria
Warriors Companion
Khitai
and I cant remember if it is Adventures in the Hyborian Age or Betrayers of Asguard that I'm missing

I'm a completest and while I'll take a break from RPG to focus on Miniatures every few months and vice versa I'm the kind of guy that needs everything. I have two full book-shelf's of D20 games, and over 30GB of PDF adventures.

I know what you mean, I get that 'completist' feeling often, but, I suppose it wears off after a little while. Thinking about it, 16 books is going to be around £200 - £250. Maybe thats my psychological limit for a single game system.
 
Have them all. When I start a RPG collection I go all the way unless the quality of the collection really. drops
 
WOW, 16 books!

I tend to collect a lot of books, but a good number of them end up as dust gathers. I tend to be a rule minimalist and a major sandbox gamer. Basically, I like to run a game with minimal effort.

When I get a Conan book, I get it for the ideas. I dont really care about the d20 rules, but I find the contents of the book, vary helpful. The Road of Kings book is a good guide the Hyborian Age, and is full of adventure hooks. Ruins of Hyboia is also vary useful. I originally got Scrolls of Skelos for the spells, but - like the rest of the book - I found them too crunchy. The Savant Class netbook was an excellent alternative, but I found the method of using elaborate rituals (basically a description, without game stats) used in Geoffrey McKinney's Carcosa booklet to be more to my liking. I found the other books too crunchy to bother with.

With D&D, I only need the core rule books (PHB, DMG, and MM), plus an extra MM book or two, too fill things out. The Deities & Demigods books was a waste of ink from the get-go - putting stats out for gods is a joke, and such books should have been more focused on the worshiping side of things, like in the Conan book. A good campaign source book is good to have - if you are into that stuff - but I'm usually content with nothing more then the old Keep on the Borderlands module or Goodman Game's Point of Light book.
 
I don't consider myself a completest, 'cause I feel it's kind of... I don't know how to put it, exactly.

The first time I had this particular feeling was with AD&D. 2nd edition. Where there was THACO and such.

I have a bunch of AD&D books. Like... Fifty, if not more. But there's always one missing. Always one that you can't get your hands on. And when you think you have them all, well crap... still one missing.

I know there's a bunch of Conan books that I don't have yet, but I'm not sure I want to spend the 300+ dollars I need in order to get them.

Add that to the fact that since I'm in the french-speaking province of Québec, there are few stores that offer rpg books, and fewer still that offer them in english. And no, I do not want to pay the extra 9 dollars per book to have it in french, loaded with spelling and grammar mistakes.

:)
 
Fluff vs Crunch.

I dont like the terms myself, but

Fluff is disription. Things that dont actualy effect game play at a rules level. Crunch is just the opposite. Hard rules that effect how you play the game.

Some years ago they where used mostly by people largely concerned with combat. Fluff was that silly RP stuff we dont care about. Crunch was the good part we are interested in.

Now they have started to be used more generaly, and with less of the good/bad conotations.

Of course this is all in my own experience, so if someone has seen them used differently please no flames, its not like I invented them.
 
You know, normally, I couldnt give two craps about Fluff. Most of the D&D setting have fluff that is mind-numbingly derivative and boring.

However, a Conan supplement with lots of Fluff is great. I get tonnes of ideas just from the fluff, and I have no problem reading all of it. The Road of Kings is the number one example of this for me. When I read about the Black Kingdoms, I want to run adventures in the Black Kingdoms. When I read about Turan, I want to run a game in Turan.

When I read about Waterdeep....I want to make my own setting and campaign world that has nothing to do with Waterdeep.
 
Though I may be setting myself up for a beatdown...

I'm more of a fluff man myself.

And I was a -huge- fan of Waterdeep.

BUT...

...I likes me some ale-drinking, wench-loving, skull-splitting Conan.
 
For me, fluff has always been what makes a setting, a setting. Otherwise, you dont even need to name things. Race 1, race 2 and so on is just fine. I have met a few gamers like that in person, and many more online, particulary on WotC forums.

4E seems to have been aimed largely at them. For me Coana is just great. Just got RTROK, and think it is great.
 
2nd edition AD&D was the Dark Age within the history of role-playing. TSR suffered under poor management. Quality suffered because "play-testing" was seen as a waste of company's time and money, they threaten legal action for even mentioning anything "D&D" or D&D related (you could not even post homebrew monsters!), and they ignored fan feedback! All they wanted to do was to make money hand-over-fist. They found that they could make more money by producing supplemental materials for their campaign settings. They drowned the industry with supplemental campaign materials (even yearly almanacs for their big settings), and fluff-heavy books with trivial and unimportant content (their was one book with bard's songs, Halfling recipes, and local flora, was the straw that broke the camel's back for me). They did not give a dame about people who played their own settings - they just wanted people to play their settings, and shell out money for "meta-plot" books! See this link for a good idea about how bad things was.

A good campaign score book is like a good novel. You could have something kin to Lords of the Ring, that is so focused on the little things, it misses the big picture. Such a book details the flora & fauna, racial family trees, an overly detailed timeline, and so on. To play such a setting, would require the players to be slaves to the settings and canons. On the other hand, you could have something kin to Conan, that has enough detail to make it evocative - yet, allows the readers to fill in the blanks in an intuitive fashion. The beauty about pulp-styled settings, it that you dont need to drown yourself with canons and backstory. Much like a Conan yarn, the players can be thrown in the "Heart of Africa" in one game, and then the next adventure, the players are pioneers at the edge of the western frontier. It dont need continuity, cultural nuances, over-reaching story-arch, or to fulfill some epic destiny. Its about adventures, and having fun!
 
Malcadon said:
WOW, 16 books!

I tend to collect a lot of books, but a good number of them end up as dust gathers. I tend to be a rule minimalist and a major sandbox gamer. Basically, I like to run a game with minimal effort.

When I get a Conan book, I get it for the ideas. I dont really care about the d20 rules, but I find the contents of the book, vary helpful. The Road of Kings book is a good guide the Hyborian Age, and is full of adventure hooks. Ruins of Hyboia is also vary useful. I originally got Scrolls of Skelos for the spells, but - like the rest of the book - I found them too crunchy. The Savant Class netbook was an excellent alternative, but I found the method of using elaborate rituals (basically a description, without game stats) used in Geoffrey McKinney's Carcosa booklet to be more to my liking. I found the other books too crunchy to bother with.

With D&D, I only need the core rule books (PHB, DMG, and MM), plus an extra MM book or two, too fill things out. The Deities & Demigods books was a waste of ink from the get-go - putting stats out for gods is a joke, and such books should have been more focused on the worshiping side of things, like in the Conan book. A good campaign source book is good to have - if you are into that stuff - but I'm usually content with nothing more then the old Keep on the Borderlands module or Goodman Game's Point of Light book.

* BIG THUMBS UP *
 
Malcadon said:
2nd edition AD&D was the Dark Age within the history of role-playing. TSR suffered under poor management. Quality suffered because "play-testing" was seen as a waste of company's time and money, they threaten legal action for even mentioning anything "D&D" or D&D related (you could not even post homebrew monsters!), and they ignored fan feedback! All they wanted to do was to make money hand-over-fist. They found that they could make more money by producing supplemental materials for their campaign settings. They drowned the industry with supplemental campaign materials (even yearly almanacs for their big settings), and fluff-heavy books with trivial and unimportant content (their was one book with bard's songs, Halfling recipes, and local flora, was the straw that broke the camel's back for me). They did not give a dame about people who played their own settings - they just wanted people to play their settings, and shell out money for "meta-plot" books! See this link for a good idea about how bad things was.

A good campaign score book is like a good novel. You could have something kin to Lords of the Ring, that is so focused on the little things, it misses the big picture. Such a book details the flora & fauna, racial family trees, an overly detailed timeline, and so on. To play such a setting, would require the players to be slaves to the settings and canons. On the other hand, you could have something kin to Conan, that has enough detail to make it evocative - yet, allows the readers to fill in the blanks in an intuitive fashion. The beauty about pulp-styled settings, it that you dont need to drown yourself with canons and backstory. Much like a Conan yarn, the players can be thrown in the "Heart of Africa" in one game, and then the next adventure, the players are pioneers at the edge of the western frontier. It dont need continuity, cultural nuances, over-reaching story-arch, or to fulfill some epic destiny. Its about adventures, and having fun!



Good gravy. You know, I didnt get into gaming until 2001, firmly within 3e's beginnings, and the TSR stuff you talk about is messed up. Its really no wonder they got snapped up by Wizards. That kind of shit is what you get from Palladium, and to be honest, I have NO idea how Palladium is still in business. They only started selling pdfs, like, a couple of months ago.

As for the 16 book syndrome, well....I dont understand. For Conan, sure, most of their books have good stuff worth reading, again, since the fluff is so very, very much more useful to me than in Forgotten Realms or whatever.

For me, the books Ill get for a setting depends on the game. I only got the core book for Silver Age Sentinels d20. It had everything you needed for running a superhero game, and the other books didnt give you anything else but information for playing in the default game verse. For something like D&D, Ill only get the core books and maybe some new books for monsters (I love monster books) and maybe a new book of magic spells. Thats it. No adventures, no campaign books, no new world books. Anything else can be made by me.
 
rabindranath72 said:
* BIG THUMBS UP *
Thanks! :D

Scorpion13 said:
Good gravy. You know, I didnt get into gaming until 2001, firmly within 3e's beginnings, and the TSR stuff you talk about is messed up. Its really no wonder they got snapped up by Wizards.
Believe it or not, I only learned about TSR's Dark Age just recently. I started playing D&D in the late 80's with the 1st edition set. I skipped over 2nd edition - relying on my classic books. I was ignorant of TSR's effect on the online community, because I did not go online until the late 90's, and I did not engaged RPG communities until much later. I did not know about 3rd edition until I found the Monster Manual at a game store. That MM was so awesome, I fell in love with it! I played 3rd ed until I became disenfranchised with High Fantasy - then I found Conan! When I got tired of the rule-heavy d20 system, I found the old-school community. Hanging out with Grognards (grumpy old-timers) was quit a history lesson! I learned a lot about the early years of the hobby, the change of game philosophy throughout the years, and the men and women who lad the ground work of the industry. There is a rich history to the hobble!

All-and-all, this is truly the Golden Age for role-playing games! There are TONS of games to choose from - for any genre or gaming style! Internet communities that accommodate to even the most fringe of interests! A number of classic, out-of-print games are in the hands of devoted fans - in the form of retro-clones! And the [geeky/satanic] stigma with playing RPGs has largely died down - when someone like Vin Diesel tells people about his Lawful-Good Paladin with a +5 sword of demon-ass-kicking, its no longer a geeky hobby! :wink:
 
Hmmm lets see...

Conan OGL (17 books and 1 box set)
Conan 2nd d20 (13 books)
Hero System vs 5 (83 books)
Traveller (20 MGT version)
D&D v3.5 d20(175 books)

Now that does NOT take into account of all the other "stuff" that I also have too. So for me, I will keep buying Conan 2nd d20, and Traveller stuff regardless what.

Now Conan OGL is no longer in print, and Heros System vs 5 is being replaced now with vs 6. Now I will most likely buy the Pathfinder D&D stuff as I refuse to buy D&D vs 4

So I guess I buy for a version/system/genere until it fades or goes out of print. For my my three lovers were D&D, Traveller, and Champions. Well Conan has replaced the D&D kick, Traveller under Mongoose should have a good 9+ more years, and I am done with Hero's with the ending of version 5. Being 46 years old and being considered a Old Dog, I guess I just don't want to learn new tricks(systems/versions) and will continue to stay with what I know as long as they keep supporting it. I will buy it, then just fade away as all gamers do with old age.

Penn
 
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