Taxes, the Imperium, and You!

[collins355]

Shahrurshid


Sternmetal Horizons


Zirunkariish

 

[Vormaerin]

And IMO they shouldn't be. Military people change roles and responsibilities every few years. A technician works with the equipment for a few years, but then he gets promoted to section leader and he has to devote more of his time to leading his subordinates and other administrative tasks. Military personnel would gain the desired experience, but as they gained seniority they would move into more administrative roles. Otherwise the technical roles wouldn't be available for new personnel to move into and gain experience.

Military contractors, the vetted civilian employees, don't have that pressure. A welder can get a job at a shipyard and do that for 20 years, becoming an expert with a deep well of experience. Workers and technicians can specialize, and develop great expertise in their specializations.

So what is your argument? That the Imperial Navy employees lots of contractors to build their ships rather than hiring a company that can do that? That seems pretty inefficient. If the ships are being built at DEPOT, you have to find oodles of civilians who will take long term jobs in an empty star system. Or you are rotating them constantly, which seems an even bigger risk than just building the ships at a civilian yard with a permanent crew that doesn't need to have access to the DEPOT systems.

 

[Sigtrygg]

One would have to wonder if the nobility of the Imperium are like much of the nobility in England around the turn of the century. They had titles and balls and such, but were essentially broke. One thing we've seen time and again is that over the generations families and heirs tend to assume the wealth will always be there, and they can be profligate spenders who are more than willing to mortgage their kingdom tomorrow for the pleasures of today.

Noblesse oblige often skips large swaths.

I would say not if they are "career", an ex-noble (one who followed the noble career but has now mustered out) is another matter.

A working noble has an income from the stuff their family personally owns, a cut of the take a share of the tax/tariff income (Cleon Industries dividend), an income from their made man status an income from megacorporation shares.

They are filthy rich.

A noble who is now a Traveller has their mustering out cash and their status, time to forge their own path... or take someone elses' stuff...

 

[actionman]

So what is your argument? That the Imperial Navy employees lots of contractors to build their ships rather than hiring a company that can do that? That seems pretty inefficient. If the ships are being built at DEPOT, you have to find oodles of civilians who will take long term jobs in an empty star system. Or you are rotating them constantly, which seems an even bigger risk than just building the ships at a civilian yard with a permanent crew that doesn't need to have access to the DEPOT systems.

I wasn't making an argument so much as I was agreeing with your post and making a couple of comments, but yes, the Imperial Navy, at its depot facilities, which it owns and operates, would probably hire thousands of civilians with specialized technical skills to work on the construction, repair, and maintenance of the ships at the depot, as well as thousands of support positions.

People will take jobs in an empty star system if the pay is high enough, especially if the star system isn't empty, but contains a network of installations that probably have a combined population of a small to medium-sized city. Millions of people in the Imperium are accustomed to living in artificial habitats, underground cities, and places much worse than a depot system, so that shouldn't be an issue. As for rotating civilians, make the contract for 5 or 10 years, with paid relocation, high pay, and plenty of amenities. It wouldn't be that hard to find people to stay 20 years. There's turnover in civilian jobs too, especially in a non-depot system where there are other job opportunities, so there wouldn't be a permanent civilian crew at a corporate shipyard. And, if the IN is building something that needs to be built at a depot system, like a prototype or something else, the workers that build it are going to need access to a depot system.

Perhaps the IN operating its own depot shipyards is less efficient than a corporation operating its own shipyards, but the IN may have higher priorities than efficiency, like security and not paying a corporation to do something it can do itself. The IN probably hires shipyard managers with corporate experience to run its shipyards. The IN has depots anyway and its not going to outsource them to a private company, so it will need either military personnel or civilians to do the work at the depots, and since civilians stay in a specialty role longer than military personnel, the IN hires civilians to work at its depots.

 

[actionman]

One would have to wonder if the nobility of the Imperium are like much of the nobility in England around the turn of the century. They had titles and balls and such, but were essentially broke. One thing we've seen time and again is that over the generations families and heirs tend to assume the wealth will always be there, and they can be profligate spenders who are more than willing to mortgage their kingdom tomorrow for the pleasures of today.

Noblesse oblige often skips large swaths.

That situation occurred because of a particular set of social and economic circumstances, which, IMO, are not present in the cultural tradition of the Imperium (like social pressure against nobles working). In the Imperium, the nobility have always worked in some way (military, administrative, investments, business owners, etc.). It's reasonable to think that there would be Imperial nobles who would be economically illiterate and think that the wealth would always be there, but IMO this is more a failure of their parents, tutors, and mentors than anything else.

 

[phavoc]

That situation occurred because of a particular set of social and economic circumstances, which, IMO, are not present in the cultural tradition of the Imperium (like social pressure against nobles working). In the Imperium, the nobility have always worked in some way (military, administrative, investments, business owners, etc.). It's reasonable to think that there would be Imperial nobles who would be economically illiterate and think that the wealth would always be there, but IMO this is more a failure of their parents, tutors, and mentors than anything else.

I wouldn't personally paint as rosy of a picture of the Imperium as you would. We've seen throughout history where those who did not earn the wealth do not appreciate where or how it is generated. That's endemic to the human condition I think. And as we've seen throughout the stated history of the Imperium - they are nothing if not human.

So I tend to think they have all the same vices and issues that people of today have - just with fancier gadgets.

 

[Condottiere]

Trusts.

The most competent member of the extended family clan is appointed manager, and the rest can suck from the family trust teats.

 

[actionman]

Trusts.

The most competent member of the extended family clan is appointed manager, and the rest can suck from the family trust teats.

Or make themselves useful in some way, lest they find themselves married off to less than desirable spouses or "volunteered" for military service a few sectors away where no one cares who their family is.

 

[Endie]

One would have to wonder if the nobility of the Imperium are like much of the nobility in England around the turn of the century. They had titles and balls and such, but were essentially broke. One thing we've seen time and again is that over the generations families and heirs tend to assume the wealth will always be there, and they can be profligate spenders who are more than willing to mortgage their kingdom tomorrow for the pleasures of today.

Noblesse oblige often skips large swaths.

The turn of which century? The 20th? Many of the English nobility did lose their estates, for sure, during the 20th century. This was due to various causes, but "they were stupid and didn't know where their wealth came from" was absolutely not any more widespread than profligacy in any other class.

Inheritance tax was a vast reason - probably the greatest - and the small matter of the great depression was another, which I believe was not wholly confined to a few hundred grand British households. Two world wars may well have played a teensy part, given the death rate amongst young, upper-class, 2nd lieutenants.

But at the turn of the 20th century the English upper classes were, overall, in a good place. Edwardian England is the era of house parties, of Wodehouse and the like. Mineral rights and carefully-sought-out American heiresses (the upper classes always looked for a good marriage: before that it was Lancashire industrial heiresses) helped smooth over many a temporary financial embarassment.

If I was going to argue the case for "lawl rich people are so silly" I wouldn't use an example of which at least a decent cohort can trace their ancestry, title and estates to arriving with William the Conqueror, 710 years before the foundation of the USA...

(Also, noblesse oblige just means that one's nobility obliges them do, or put up with, a thing, and is usually used ironically. "Why didn't you give the infernal bounder a damned good thrashing?" "Ah, noblesse oblige...")

 

[Condottiere]

Or make themselves useful in some way, lest they find themselves married off to less than desirable spouses or "volunteered" for military service a few sectors away where no one cares who their family is.

Or, become social media influencers.

 

[Vormaerin]

I wasn't making an argument so much as I was agreeing with your post and making a couple of comments, but yes, the Imperial Navy, at its depot facilities, which it owns and operates, would probably hire thousands of civilians with specialized technical skills to work on the construction, repair, and maintenance of the ships at the depot, as well as thousands of support positions.

People will take jobs in an empty star system if the pay is high enough, especially if the star system isn't empty, but contains a network of installations that probably have a combined population of a small to medium-sized city. Millions of people in the Imperium are accustomed to living in artificial habitats, underground cities, and places much worse than a depot system, so that shouldn't be an issue. As for rotating civilians, make the contract for 5 or 10 years, with paid relocation, high pay, and plenty of amenities. It wouldn't be that hard to find people to stay 20 years. There's turnover in civilian jobs too, especially in a non-depot system where there are other job opportunities, so there wouldn't be a permanent civilian crew at a corporate shipyard. And, if the IN is building something that needs to be built at a depot system, like a prototype or something else, the workers that build it are going to need access to a depot system.

Perhaps the IN operating its own depot shipyards is less efficient than a corporation operating its own shipyards, but the IN may have higher priorities than efficiency, like security and not paying a corporation to do something it can do itself. The IN probably hires shipyard managers with corporate experience to run its shipyards. The IN has depots anyway and its not going to outsource them to a private company, so it will need either military personnel or civilians to do the work at the depots, and since civilians stay in a specialty role longer than military personnel, the IN hires civilians to work at its depots.

So you are arguing that the Imperial Navy is employing civilians to primarily build ships at a naval shipyard under supervision rather than the Imperial Navy employing civilians to build ships at a corporate shipyard under supervision. The latter is vastly easier for a wide range of reasons and involves much less security risk since Depot systems have much, much more secret stuff than the design specs of a particular ship and requires paying a lot more to get people to live in an isolated military camp instead of a normal place.

It also has the virtue of matching published examples.

 

[actionman]

So you are arguing that the Imperial Navy is employing civilians to primarily build ships at a naval shipyard

I am arguing that it is probable that in Imperial Navy depot systems, the Imperial Navy employs civilians to do a host of a jobs related to the construction, repair, and maintenance of Imperial Navy ships, as well as thousands of support roles that support those activities.

I am not arguing that the Imperial Navy builds most of its ships at its depot systems. You added the word 'primarily', not me.

IMO most Imperial Navy ships are built by civilian shipyards owned by the Imperial megacorporations, as I stated here:

requires paying a lot more to get people to live in an isolated military camp instead of a normal place.

You assume a depot is an "isolated military camp". I don't. Thousands of people would live at a depot system, and the living conditions would be no worse, and probably be a lot better, than other habitats and worlds.

Here's the data from the Traveller map.

Depot, Epshur/Zaurshagar: Dense atmosphere, 80% water, 200 million people.
Depot, Kerr/Massilia: Dense atmosphere, water world, 30 million people.
Depot, Anakod/Vland: Dense, tainted atmo, 1 million people.
Depot, Alurza/Diaspora: Asteroid belt, 90 million people.
Depot, Antares/Antares: Thin atmo, 40% water, 500,000 people.
Depot, Inar/Deneb: Some airless rockball, 2 million people.
Depot, Strand/Corridor: Dense atmo, 60% water, but only 10,000 people. That's not just isolated, that's Fort Irwin isolated.
Depot, Isi Ashto/Gushmege: Desert world, 1 million people
Depot, Dlan/Ilelish: Standard atmo, 20% water, 600,000 people.
Depot, Gadde/Dagudashaag: Rockball, 30,000 people.
Depot, Zhemi/Daibei: Corrosive atmo, people probably live in habitats, 700,000 people.
Depot, Masionia/Lishun: Dense atmo, 80% water, 50,000 people.
Depot, Mekee/Core: Waterworld, 400,000 people.
Depot, Vega/Solomani Rim: Asteroid belt, 6,000,000 people.
Depot, Derri/Fornast: Standard, tainted atmo, 70,000 people.
Depot 1, Eta-Gu/Delphi: Dense atmo, 30% water, 30,000 people.
Depot 2, Tsent/Delphi: Garden world, 10,000 people. Nice!
Depot, Jayna/Old Expanses: Asteroid belt, 700,000 people.
Depot, Gaudix Drift/Ley: Thin atmo, 30% water, 100,000 people.

So 6 out of 19 depot systems have below 100,000 inhabitants, and only 2 depot systems have populations of 10,000, which are still the size of small cities. Depot systems aren't any worse and quite a bit better than a lot of Imperial worlds that sustain permanent populations.

 

[Terry Mixon]

I am arguing that it is probable that in Imperial Navy depot systems, the Imperial Navy employs civilians to do a host of a jobs related to the construction, repair, and maintenance of Imperial Navy ships, as well as thousands of support roles that support those activities.

I am not arguing that the Imperial Navy builds most of its ships at its depot systems. You added the word 'primarily', not me.

IMO most Imperial Navy ships are built by civilian shipyards owned by the Imperial megacorporations, as I stated here:

View attachment 7110




You assume a depot is an "isolated military camp". I don't. Thousands of people would live at a depot system, and the living conditions would be no worse, and probably be a lot better, than other habitats and worlds.

Here's the data from the Traveller map.

Depot, Epshur/Zaurshagar: Dense atmosphere, 80% water, 200 million people.
Depot, Kerr/Massilia: Dense atmosphere, water world, 30 million people.
Depot, Anakod/Vland: Dense, tainted atmo, 1 million people.
Depot, Alurza/Diaspora: Asteroid belt, 90 million people.
Depot, Antares/Antares: Thin atmo, 40% water, 500,000 people.
Depot, Inar/Deneb: Some airless rockball, 2 million people.
Depot, Strand/Corridor: Dense atmo, 60% water, but only 10,000 people. That's not just isolated, that's Fort Irwin isolated.
Depot, Isi Ashto/Gushmege: Desert world, 1 million people
Depot, Dlan/Ilelish: Standard atmo, 20% water, 600,000 people.
Depot, Gadde/Dagudashaag: Rockball, 30,000 people.
Depot, Zhemi/Daibei: Corrosive atmo, people probably live in habitats, 700,000 people.
Depot, Masionia/Lishun: Dense atmo, 80% water, 50,000 people.
Depot, Mekee/Core: Waterworld, 400,000 people.
Depot, Vega/Solomani Rim: Asteroid belt, 6,000,000 people.
Depot, Derri/Fornast: Standard, tainted atmo, 70,000 people.
Depot 1, Eta-Gu/Delphi: Dense atmo, 30% water, 30,000 people.
Depot 2, Tsent/Delphi: Garden world, 10,000 people. Nice!
Depot, Jayna/Old Expanses: Asteroid belt, 700,000 people.
Depot, Gaudix Drift/Ley: Thin atmo, 30% water, 100,000 people.

So 6 out of 19 depot systems have below 100,000 inhabitants, and only 2 depot systems have populations of 10,000, which are still the size of small cities. Depot systems aren't any worse and quite a bit better than a lot of Imperial worlds that sustain permanent populations.

They might have those populations, but I'd wager coming or going would not be easy. Resident for life!

 

[actionman]

They might have those populations, but I'd wager coming or going would not be easy. Resident for life!

They're one or two jumps away from the mains.

 

[Terry Mixon]

They're one or two jumps away from the mains.

Doesn't do much good when no ships are allowed in or out. The Navy will keep the population from departing or new people from coming in. Security.

"Sorry, Citizen. you'll be here a while. Like forever. Go have a coke on us."

 

[Condottiere]

I am arguing that it is probable that in Imperial Navy depot systems, the Imperial Navy employs civilians to do a host of a jobs related to the construction, repair, and maintenance of Imperial Navy ships, as well as thousands of support roles that support those activities.

I am not arguing that the Imperial Navy builds most of its ships at its depot systems. You added the word 'primarily', not me.

IMO most Imperial Navy ships are built by civilian shipyards owned by the Imperial megacorporations, as I stated here:

View attachment 7110




You assume a depot is an "isolated military camp". I don't. Thousands of people would live at a depot system, and the living conditions would be no worse, and probably be a lot better, than other habitats and worlds.

Here's the data from the Traveller map.

Depot, Epshur/Zaurshagar: Dense atmosphere, 80% water, 200 million people.
Depot, Kerr/Massilia: Dense atmosphere, water world, 30 million people.
Depot, Anakod/Vland: Dense, tainted atmo, 1 million people.
Depot, Alurza/Diaspora: Asteroid belt, 90 million people.
Depot, Antares/Antares: Thin atmo, 40% water, 500,000 people.
Depot, Inar/Deneb: Some airless rockball, 2 million people.
Depot, Strand/Corridor: Dense atmo, 60% water, but only 10,000 people. That's not just isolated, that's Fort Irwin isolated.
Depot, Isi Ashto/Gushmege: Desert world, 1 million people
Depot, Dlan/Ilelish: Standard atmo, 20% water, 600,000 people.
Depot, Gadde/Dagudashaag: Rockball, 30,000 people.
Depot, Zhemi/Daibei: Corrosive atmo, people probably live in habitats, 700,000 people.
Depot, Masionia/Lishun: Dense atmo, 80% water, 50,000 people.
Depot, Mekee/Core: Waterworld, 400,000 people.
Depot, Vega/Solomani Rim: Asteroid belt, 6,000,000 people.
Depot, Derri/Fornast: Standard, tainted atmo, 70,000 people.
Depot 1, Eta-Gu/Delphi: Dense atmo, 30% water, 30,000 people.
Depot 2, Tsent/Delphi: Garden world, 10,000 people. Nice!
Depot, Jayna/Old Expanses: Asteroid belt, 700,000 people.
Depot, Gaudix Drift/Ley: Thin atmo, 30% water, 100,000 people.

So 6 out of 19 depot systems have below 100,000 inhabitants, and only 2 depot systems have populations of 10,000, which are still the size of small cities. Depot systems aren't any worse and quite a bit better than a lot of Imperial worlds that sustain permanent populations.

That seems off, since I consider the Corridor Depot one of the ten most important systems in the Imperium.

 

[rinku]

I honestly don't think the 3I economy CAN operate in the same manner as 20th or 21st century Earth does. Or as a cherry picked nation supposedly does. The information lag and bottleneck of interstellar shipping by Jump is going to heavily encourage (but not totally require in all cases) local manufacture. But "local" could mean in many cases "cluster" or "subsector". Whatever the cost is to extract the stuff for use in a chosen Depot system or commercial industrial hub, the cost to extract it elsewhere would have to be significantly cheaper to justify the cost of shipping it there. No one is mining Titanium in Glisten and sending it to Depot.

 

[MarcusIII]

Perhaps the IN operating its own depot shipyards is less efficient than a corporation operating its own shipyards, but the IN may have higher priorities than efficiency, like security and not paying a corporation to do something it can do itself.

Back in the '60's the USAF had a couple of "bases" where prototype planes were made. It was made up of corporate personnel, independent contractor experts and military people. All working together. Different rotations for different people based on what they did. My father was an independent contractor. I remember driving him to the local airport where he would board a military plane and we wouldn't see him for a few months.

 

[actionman]

Doesn't do much good when no ships are allowed in or out. The Navy will keep the population from departing or new people from coming in. Security.

"Sorry, Citizen. you'll be here a while. Like forever. Go have a coke on us."

View attachment 7111

but that's an assumption youre making.

 

[phavoc]

The turn of which century? The 20th? Many of the English nobility did lose their estates, for sure, during the 20th century. This was due to various causes, but "they were stupid and didn't know where their wealth came from" was absolutely not any more widespread than profligacy in any other class.

Inheritance tax was a vast reason - probably the greatest - and the small matter of the great depression was another, which I believe was not wholly confined to a few hundred grand British households. Two world wars may well have played a teensy part, given the death rate amongst young, upper-class, 2nd lieutenants.

But at the turn of the 20th century the English upper classes were, overall, in a good place. Edwardian England is the era of house parties, of Wodehouse and the like. Mineral rights and carefully-sought-out American heiresses (the upper classes always looked for a good marriage: before that it was Lancashire industrial heiresses) helped smooth over many a temporary financial embarassment.

If I was going to argue the case for "lawl rich people are so silly" I wouldn't use an example of which at least a decent cohort can trace their ancestry, title and estates to arriving with William the Conqueror, 710 years before the foundation of the USA...

(Also, noblesse oblige just means that one's nobility obliges them do, or put up with, a thing, and is usually used ironically. "Why didn't you give the infernal bounder a damned good thrashing?" "Ah, noblesse oblige...")

I had used that as a modern era example. However nobles being in debt, being profligate spenders, etc wasn't limited to that specific period. From around 1850 and onwards the issue was accelerated due to multiple factors - inheritance taxes, the change from agricultural to industrial, long-term mismanagement, etc. Some of this was indeed related to loans taken out to support poor spending habits. For the time period regular income was tied to their lands and unlike Imperial nobles they couldn't count on regular stock dividends.

Marrying a rich American was a thing because there were rich Americans to marry. The new world was full of newly wealthy families. The old world (France, Germany, etc) still had old money, but nobody with a lot of cash like Americans.

Making bad choices (i.e the "lawl" crowd) isnt limited to the wealthy. However when one is poor and untitled one cannot borrow large sums to as easily piss away living beyond your means. Sure, Larry the Nose can finance your needs, at a "very reasonable daily interest rate", but the typical poor person bets on a longshot (or, perhaps, a trip to the new world) instead of drinking, whoring, gambling and otherwise pissing away the borrowed funds. Such activities are generally limited to the upper social strata, which in this discussion are the titled elite.

The use of nobelesse oblige was used specifically in reference to the elevated responsibility that nobles are supposed to have. Which is why I used the reference the way I did. Nobles are supposed to "do their duty" to king (or emperor) and country. That they get to do it in style and comfort is just how the system is structured.

Does it cover all nobles? No, of course not. There are those who may be relatively non-wealthy who serve out not of a sense of duty but one of desire. There are those who do the same while stupidly wealthy and who have the means to avoid any responsibility while living large.

To what extent any nations nobility are more of one group than another is unknown. Perhaps it is more of your description, perhaps it is more of mine. There are notable exceptions and examples of both types throughout human history. And, I'm sure, in the Imperium as well.