Survival of FLGS moving into the digital doc age

[rust]

Just based on what you see on this board, PDF sales are growing. Definitely not stagnant or shrinking.

This is true, but at the same time the actual numbers are not exactly very
high. For example, Chaosium's website has a page where one can see the
number of downloads of their PDFs, and in my view these are surprisingly
low - even if one would double the numbers because DTRPG also sells the
same PDFs:

http://catalog.chaosium.com/fdm_folder_files.php?fPath=19_29

Just 690 PDFs of the core rules of a well established game like Call of
Cthulhu in the three years since 2008, or just 17 PDFs of a supplement
of the quality of Secrets of Japan in one year ... :shock:

 

[GamerDude]

Typical response, misspellings an all.

I suspect that his English is still better than your German. :lol:

Ahhh yes... that guttural language that sounds like someone is coughing up a lung. *grin*

 

[rust]

Ahhh yes... that guttural language that sounds like someone is coughing up a lung. *grin*

Nah, that is Klingon.

 

[BFalcon]

you can't really compare physical and digital sales unless you ask the publishers (eg Mongoose) themselves for figures...

Just based on what you see on this board, PDF sales are growing. Definitely not stagnant or shrinking.

The people on this board are IT literate (at least to some degree) and not necessarily an accurate cross-section of the gaming community, for one thing...

For another, my reasons for saying that was that digital sales might include free downloads and people buying cheap items for a system that weren't written by the publisher themselves. Even where a publisher is able to filter out their own products for numbers sold, it's very probable that a good quantity sold are digital sales of books that people *already* own in a physical format.

I did not say that they were stagnant, nor shrinking... merely that the figures may not be entirely accurate of the current situation without more clarification... I know that I've bought books in both formats before now... and often want PDFs of older books that are too valuable to use. I also like PDFs of some books for reference while writing material for use later and which I'll rarely want to access mid-game.

 

[DFW]

The people on this board are IT literate (at least to some degree) and not necessarily an accurate cross-section of the gaming community, for one thing...

For another, my reasons for saying that was that digital sales might include free downloads and people buying cheap items for a system that weren't written by the publisher themselves.

Most people are computer literate these days. It is almost impossible to find, in advanced countries, people <40 that aren't computer literate. I'm just stating known facts. Do with them what you will...


1) The # of digital gaming book sales is increasing.
2) There are many gamer's who buy PDF while NOT buying the corresponding dead tree copy.

As someone who has years of international distribution experience, I know what it tells me.

 

[BFalcon]

The people on this board are IT literate (at least to some degree) and not necessarily an accurate cross-section of the gaming community, for one thing...

For another, my reasons for saying that was that digital sales might include free downloads and people buying cheap items for a system that weren't written by the publisher themselves.

Most people are computer literate these days. It is almost impossible to find, in advanced countries, people <40 that aren't computer literate. I'm just stating known facts. Do with them what you will...


1) The # of digital gaming book sales is increasing.
2) There are many gamer's who buy PDF while NOT buying the corresponding dead tree copy.

As someone who has years of international distribution experience, I know what it tells me.

I'm self-employed repairing computers - I'm always dealing with people who don't know how to use them for more than to just view emails and read the occasional webpage that's fed to them. I even mention virus protection or (shock horror) manually entering a URL and they stare blankly at me.

Bear in mind that, when I was at school, we didn't even HAVE an IT lesson and so, if they didn't have access to a computer, they won't have learned how to use one. I'm 38, so right in that demographic. My sister, up till a few years ago, wouldn't even use one if you gave it to her.

Hardly "nearly impossible" when I'm meeting such people on a regular basis...

 

[BFalcon]

Of the game PDF I have bought so far:

• A sizeabel amount (about 30) was only available in PDF. Mostly stuff from QLI for the T20 timeline. These either never saw print of the prints where not available for order (Ordering physicals through QLI was "not recommended")
• The next biggest block are replacements for books "too valuable". This will increase as I order more DVDs from FFE over time. Currently I have some 30 PDFs of old GDW rules not counting the Challenge issues
• And lately I have started to buy PDF even if there is a choice of PDF or print when it comes to hobby material. Ease of access, ease of transport.
• The final set are scans of books I own as hardcopy. I.e my "Spielbergers" since that makes access to reference material while building a model or discussions at the modelers meet a lot easier
• With computer literature some publishers (Manning i.e) attach a card to each book. Using codes on that card you can download a PDF copy of the book for free. NICE! Even more so since one of my office monitor tilts to portrait mode(1)

(1) It costs only 20€ more than the otherwise identical non-tilt model. If you read a lot of PDF and need a new monitor consider buying a tilting one. (Samsung makes quite a few)

Actually a sensible reason for buying - I tend to still buy hard-copy though... although I bought the Sector Fleet book in PDF and will probably buy most of my games in PDF at some point, purely for the "I can bring it on PDF to the game, just in case" to keep the number of books carried to a sane level. So in my case, I'd add "Reference material" to that list too... books you don't think you'll need mid-game but might want to reference while making scenarios.

 

[DFW]

I'm self-employed repairing computers - I'm always dealing with people who don't know how to use them for more than to just view emails and read the occasional webpage that's fed to them.

Right. Which is the level of "expertise" needed to download and read PDF's...
8)

 

[rust]

Of the game PDF I have bought so far:

• A sizeabel amount (about 30) was only available in PDF. Mostly stuff from QLI for the T20 timeline. These either never saw print of the prints where not available for order (Ordering physicals through QLI was "not recommended")
• The next biggest block are replacements for books "too valuable". This will increase as I order more DVDs from FFE over time. Currently I have some 30 PDFs of old GDW rules not counting the Challenge issues
• And lately I have started to buy PDF even if there is a choice of PDF or print when it comes to hobby material. Ease of access, ease of transport.
• The final set are scans of books I own as hardcopy. I.e my "Spielbergers" since that makes access to reference material while building a model or discussions at the modelers meet a lot easier
• With computer literature some publishers (Manning i.e) attach a card to each book. Using codes on that card you can download a PDF copy of the book for free. NICE! Even more so since one of my office monitor tilts to portrait mode(1)

In my case I would add:

- some gaming material is not interesting enough for me to pay the price
of the print version, but just interesting enough to pay the usually signifi-
cantly lower price of the PDF,

- some gaming material is not available over here, and the shipping costs
of the print version from the publisher in the USA to Germany are so high
that they probably rent an aircraft carrier for the transport,

- depending on where the gaming material comes from, it can take seve-
ral weeks to arrive here, plus a few days at the customs (to give the offi-
cers there some time to determine whether the game contains parts of
protected species or child pornography), while the PDF can be here in mi-
nutes,

- the idea to send a damaged or misprinted book back over the Atlantic
for replacement would be rather bizarre, the shipping would usually cost
more than the book did cost, while a PDF replacement does not cost any-
thing to me or the publisher.

 

[BFalcon]

I'm self-employed repairing computers - I'm always dealing with people who don't know how to use them for more than to just view emails and read the occasional webpage that's fed to them.

Right. Which is the level of "expertise" needed to download and read PDF's...
8)

I do hope you're kidding... yes?

The idea of "downloading" and then "uploading" to a device or installing a program to view them on the computer is way beyond some of my customers... I kid you not when I say that a few are just viewing facebook and then a couple of prelinked sites (usually BT Yahoo or similar so that they can get their emails) - maybe once in a while they'll have worked out how to copy pictures from their camera to the computer.

You even mention PDFs and you get a blank look... of course, mention itunes or similar and they're right up there... but then that's not necessarily computer literacy, they've just learned one program enought to buy the song and then link to their ipods...

Whoever did the survey for that computer literacy really needs to get out into the sticks more and less sticking to the better-schooled areas...

Personally, in my school's case, I blame the IT teacher - he hoarded the computers for years and only select students were allowed near them - let alone actual lessons on them...

 

[BFalcon]

Given the speed of delivery the US imports are not delivered by aircraft carrier. More likely Something like this

====

I blame my spelling on using a german Win7 handwriting recognition to write that funny language they use on the "island without seasoning"

If you're referring the UK, I challenge you to go eat a jar of English Mustard and then get back to us...

It's the French who can't stomach strong flavours - all the french food I've tasted was either bland or wine-laced... and have you tasted their mustards?? You can still talk after eating a spoonful of it!!

 

[DFW]

I do hope you're kidding... yes?

Nope. I've worked IT for 30 years. I dozens of friends & relatives at this level. No problem buying online and reading. Most people have laptops now and that is what they use. I've NEVER met a gamer <40 who couldn't accomplish this task. Maybe the UK is WAY behind the US. Sounds lie it.

 

[IanBruntlett]

The idea of "downloading" and then "uploading" to a device or installing a program to view them on the computer is way beyond some of my customers... I kid you not when I say that a few are just viewing facebook and then a couple of prelinked sites (usually BT Yahoo or similar so that they can get their emails) - maybe once in a while they'll have worked out how to copy pictures from their camera to the computer.
.

I help out with computers with a charity http://www.contactmorpeth.org.uk/ and I get a broad spectrum of users. I find that most people don't want to learn things for the sake of exploration. They typically just want the computer to "just work".And as for expense, there isn't any. We give away PCs to people with mental health problems, their carers or children.

 

[BFalcon]

The idea of "downloading" and then "uploading" to a device or installing a program to view them on the computer is way beyond some of my customers... I kid you not when I say that a few are just viewing facebook and then a couple of prelinked sites (usually BT Yahoo or similar so that they can get their emails) - maybe once in a while they'll have worked out how to copy pictures from their camera to the computer.
.

I help out with computers with a charity http://www.contactmorpeth.org.uk/ and I get a broad spectrum of users. I find that most people don't want to learn things for the sake of exploration. They typically just want the computer to "just work".And as for expense, there isn't any. We give away PCs to people with mental health problems, their carers or children.

FYI: that quote was mine, not DFW... just to head off any confusion.

And yes, I find the same thing - the confusion I get when I ask if they get their mail through a web-browser or through a mail program, for example, is common - I often hear the "I just want it to work" comment myself.

Maybe the UK *is* behind the US where IT is concerned - hardly surprising when computers have, for many years, been that much more costly over here (cost of importing from the US and VAT (thank you europe!!) on top) and the broadband network over here is very much neglected outside of the cities.

 

[BFalcon]

Thanks to Lidl's, I've grown quite fond of the german meat products - pretty similar to the traditional british food (and I mean pre-victorian).

Mind you, having seen some peoples' idea of Spag-Bol (to use the common phrase), I can see why you'd need mustard to eat it.

I'm lucky - my mum was adventurous as a cook and good too - we must have been one of the earliest families to have mexican, chinese and indian food regularly in the UK...

 

[rust]

There are tons of delicate, interesting vegetarian recipies. Stuff that even a meat "fan" like me loved to eat. So WHY do some vegetarians insist on eating non-meat copies of meat products?

And why, when there are so many interesting herbs to add some taste to
such products, do they insist on making them as bland as cardboard ?

By the way, the best non-Chinese vegetarian restaurant I ever did eat at
was in Cornwall.

 

[BFalcon]

Oh and you hopefully have not seen the worst of "german modern cuisine" like

+ Vegetarian Chilli Con Carne
+ Meatlless Bolognese
+ TofuSausage, TofuBurger, Tofu<Insert Meat here>(1)
+ EPA Typ 1: "Sweet rice and fruits"


(1) There are tons of delicate, interesting vegetarian recipies. Stuff that even a meat "fan" like me loved to eat. So WHY do some vegetarians insist on eating non-meat copies of meat products?

Sad to say, we *may* have gotten those before you did...

I think it's to stop them feeling left out and to encourage more people to "go veggie".

Hmm... we're kind hijacking this thread...

Maybe back on topic?

 

[FreeTrav]

Getting back toward the original topic - or at least the first-order digression...

I like having the hardcopy. There's just something about holding the book in my hands and flipping through the pages that tapping my way through the e-edition just can't match.

On the other hand, tapping my way through the e-edition is awfully convenient, and having a hundred books and supplements and so on on a tablet is a HELL of a lot more convenient than schlepping three boxes of printed books.

On the OTHER other hand, the most convenient tools for the latter - things like tablets or e-readers - don't exactly make it easy if I need to be able to refer to two books at once. I can refer to them sequentially, and even have the device remember where I was in each - but side-by-side display? Not if I'm on anything that's not a "full computer". Right now, the tablets and pads are basically still in the mode of "all apps are full-screen". No windowing, no easy switching between sessions.

The NetBooks had it ALMOST right. Their failure was mostly that the OS assumed that just because the tiny screen had (officially) the same resolution as a 15-inch HD display for a desktop, the same pixel-to-point-size ratio was appropriate, and since so many programs for desktop/laptop computers assume the default and don't handle heavily magnified text well, ... I think you can see where this is going.

The thing is, I don't actually game a lot any more - I find I have little tolerance for the mindset of the younger generation of gamers, and on the rare occasions that the few gamers of my generation do have time to game, we often don't have ENOUGH time to be able to actually GET to a single centrally-located place to game.

Given that, and given that DAMN NEAR NOBODY offers any sort of reasonable discount for pairing a paper purchase with an e-edition purchase, I'm going to choose one or the other. And since I don't game a lot any more, and since I do review the products for Freelance Traveller, and since I DO like having the paper book, and since I want my FLGS to stay in business... I get the paper book, and not the e-edition. I'd rather have both - and with deals like JBE's, I can manage it. But when I'm paying as much for the e-edition as I would for the printed version, I can't really justify getting both.

I'm not going to say that the e-editions are pure profit; I know the publishing industry better than that. But I also know the hosting "industry", and you can't tell me that the costs of hosting completely replace the costs of printing and shipping and stocking. As far as I'm concerned, charging me the same price to download it from your site (I'm not going to discuss the way that sites like Amazon try to gouge the publishers) as I pay in my FLGS to carry the paper edition home is gouging me, and until a publisher gets their head straight on that - or can explain to me, without my bullshit detector going off, why it's NOT gouging me, and why expecting me to pay full price TWICE to have print and e-editions isn't twisting the knife after sticking it to me - well, yeah, there's going to be fewer sales.

 

[BFalcon]

John: some good points...

Just to pick up on one specifically, the cost at DriveThru seem to be decent for Mongoose stuff - I picked up Sector Fleet for a fiver... so it might be a plan to pick up some reference material.

I fully agree about the holding the book in your hands... and about multiple PDFs... that's one area a full notebook off to one side would be useful to have.

I'm lucky when it comes to multiple pages at home - I can, if I'm desperate, have a physical book on the desk on a document holder, another open on the business server (and the screen to the right of my main monitor as a result) and work on my main screen, including any I tile on this screen. If need be, I've got access to a tablet, laptop albeit a bit old now) and a netbook, if I can find somewhere to put them...

One other problem with too many electronic format books though - electricity here in the UK is expensive - one lamp can light a couple of books and your keyboard for your computer, but you need that lamp and other devices to see a PDF - on a good day, you only need a pen, paper and your book to make notes for a scenario, making it cheaper... just a thought... books ARE greener than the electronic format... eventually...

 

[FreeTrav]

John: some good points...

This posting looks like you're responding to me; that's "Jeff", not "John"

Just to pick up on one specifically, the cost at DriveThru seem to be decent for Mongoose stuff - I picked up Sector Fleet for a fiver... so it might be a plan to pick up some reference material.

Indeed it is! I can't complain too much about the DTRPG price being roughly half the print price; it looks like I need to put together my wish list (after going through and seeing what I already have in electronic format) and make a few purchases.

Now if DTRPG would only provide a way for me to redeem multiple coupons in one go... and a way for me to add free products to my wish list because I want the product but can't download it right now...

FWIW, your 'fiver' appears to equate to about $7 to $10 for me, depending on where the Pound Sterling is trading versus the US Dollar, and how much DTRPG is adjusting prices in foreign (to them) currencies to reflect wexler fees...

I fully agree about the holding the book in your hands... and about multiple PDFs... that's one area a full notebook off to one side would be useful to have.

Agreed. There's a secondary issue with PDFs, though...

The current practice with respect to multiple-size releases seems to be to shrink the print size so that you get a one-to-one match on page count, but I'm beginning to wonder if maybe it wouldn't be better to accept a page-count "mismatch" and use either the same absolute size or a larger relative size for the smaller format - if the base text size is 12pt on the A4 format, instead of dropping to 8pt absolute for the A5 (which pretty closely matches the percentage reduction going from A4 to A5), going to 9.5 point would make it somewhat more readable. Then, use the A5 format as the master for the PDF; it'll be easier to read on the relatively low-resolution screen.

I'm lucky when it comes to multiple pages at home - I can, if I'm desperate, have a physical book on the desk on a document holder, another open on the business server (and the screen to the right of my main monitor as a result) and work on my main screen, including any I tile on this screen. If need be, I've got access to a tablet, laptop albeit a bit old now) and a netbook, if I can find somewhere to put them...

One other problem with too many electronic format books though - electricity here in the UK is expensive - one lamp can light a couple of books and your keyboard for your computer, but you need that lamp and other devices to see a PDF - on a good day, you only need a pen, paper and your book to make notes for a scenario, making it cheaper... just a thought... books ARE greener than the electronic format... eventually...

I hadn't even thought of the appurtenanced cost issue; I live in the NYC area, which have the second highest electricity prices in the US (only the State of Hawai'i is higher). I'm paying about £0.04 ($0.066) per kWh, based on the calculated tariff for June 2011.