Survival of FLGS moving into the digital doc age

[BFalcon]

Of course, I know and hand pick my players, so I know their maturity level... this is certainly not the case for pickup groups, cons, etc.

Yeah, the problem was, I had to GM (other systems) for a gaming club... so had no choice but to accept them into the group unless I had a really good reason.

 

[GamerDude]

Even with the problems GamerDude had (never had them myself) I like smartphones

• Act as my bag of dice. No more scrambling on the floor after dropped dice, no more "can I borrow some"
• Store my characters as text or PDF. No more lugging around the A4 binder full of chars. I generaly type down the chars from my players and now they get the results (as PDF) mailed so they can store them as well
• Game binders as PDF. I do a short "primer" for campaigns and typically printed that. These days make a PDF and mail it, the players can store it on the phone
• The problems GD described are IMHO more "player" problems than "smartphone" problems. Sadly the best solution for that type of problem is illegal to use
• If the GM brings a tablet there are some more options (depending on software) I can think of in the software department. I.e a "Imperial Encyclopedia" style Wiki or a "Equipment shop" With Win7 tablets this is easy (use a Apache Server and Wiki), others may need more specialised software

To clarify, I never meant to convey that any of the problems I've encountered was the fault of laptops/tablets/smart phones. Heck I LOVE electronic devices at the table, when they are actually contributing to the quality of the game.

Somebody hit it on the head: it is a player problem, just like cellphone usage by the driver is an 'operator problem' not a cellphone problem. I run games at homes, in stores, and LOTS of conventions (6-9 sessions 4hrs each for 3 day-4day cons respectively). Just think of the time where laptops started getting inexpensive enough for 25% of people to have one, then again when PDAs started becoming useful enough (moving into smart phones, iPod Touch) then the iPad/Tablets.

I don't care what someone has on their device, but if there is a reference you're not supposed to be into (like monster manuals) then stay out of them. If you're supposed to be paying attention and not playing "Star Wars Galaxies" or "Star Trek Battle Simulator (name?)" then don't be doing it. One of our store owners, Mr "Ultimate Game Master" himself claims the problem is people can't multitask, but then goes himself as a player and gets so wrapped up in his SW Galaxies it takes four or five times calling his name to get his attention and we only get it when pretty much the entire table does it at once.

Another problem that I've witnessed and experienced over the years is people refusing to hand their iPad or Smartphone/PDA over for a moment to let the GM look at that character sheet or die roll (or even check out the program to begin with). Right after the iPad came out I ran at a con (this was mid-august) and I observed a husband/wife couple there with iPads, max storage very fancy carry cases that opened up to act like easels and such. They were playing 4th ed D&D and had some website that stored and displayed their character. The GM had a question and asked to see the "character sheets" - the couple absolutely refused to hand over their expensive new toys as "sorry we paid to much to be passing them around, come over here". To me that was just BS and they would have been gone from the table. If you won't "pass it over" getup off your fat ass and bring it to the GM. (the GM did as very nicely).

Hence my preference for paper character sheets, and no other type is allowed at my table... you can't complain I provide the paper blanks, or you can enter to a fillable PDF and I'll print it for you (I have a Laserjet, a Laser all-in-one-plus-fax, two inkjet all-in-ones, and a HP small portable ink jet).

I have three Laptop/Tablet machines, one is a 15 inch Win XP one a 17.3 inch Win7 BluRay Multimedia monster, and the 12" touchscreen/tablet-laptop. I'm looking at using either the 15" or the 17" as my "multimedia & printing" computer allowing me to keep my 12" as a tablet and wander around the table with all my data right there.

My smart phone data plan is true "unlimited", and I pay the extra $30 so my phone can be a WiFi router for up to 8 computers at a time. Putting all my info in a wiki or something would be great...players can check what they know and GM only information is kept on my tablet. In fact that is on my list of things to get done, point players to a wiki and it has everything they need to know to make a character, purchase equipment (no, you can't get the TL 14 phased plasma rifle when the guidelines say nothing over TL 6!).

I do like the "best solution this type of problem" but then you have blood and brain matter all over the place when you have to eliminate the first pain-in-the-butt to show everyone else you mean business *grin*

 

[rust]

+ Has anyone played around with stuff like Wiki for in-game use

In a way. I have found that it is a waste of time and effort to give long,
detailed descriptions of a location, the players almost never remember
more than three or four bits of such a description. It is easier to write
a short "library entry" and hand it to them, whether on paper or screen,
so they can look up what they forgot when they need it, instead of for-
cing me to repeat what I already mentioned over and over again. So we
now have one "data terminal" (=my computer) available "at the charac-
ters' base", with the informations needed for the adventure as well as a
lot of misleading material - as the referee, I only tell the truth, but who-
ever wrote the stuff available at the data terminal may well have been
dead wrong ...

 

[Gamerguy]

Some people actually play these games to get away from computers and perfer a nice set of books to work from.

They use paper character sheets filled out by hand, dice and the rule books.

Now - for .pdfs -- some people like them, some people don't - just like hardbound books and paperbacks.

Now a .pdf can be a real deal if it is priced right - like say 50% of the printed cost.

Also most Gaming Stores I know make their money from Card Games these days.

8)

 

[BFalcon]

Since I started using PDFs, I've found one very useful feature - the text search function - so even if something isn't mentioned in the index (which, let's face it, some indices are better than others), you can still find it without having to scan the whole chapter, or worse, the whole book.

PDFs also have the advantage that you can carry a whole load of spare reference material on a single tablet, so when SOB player asks for some information from a book he knows you don't have with you, you can look it up.

I actually agree with you that IT should be used as little as possible at the table, but that's a mix of personal preference, experiences and the players I used to play with... for others, it might be a better prospect.

One system I always wanted each player to have their own computer screen, for example, was Judge Dredd... so each time they get the +++ ITEM +++ bulletins, they could do so in real time and from the GM/Referee's terminal... it would also allow the GM to pass messages to the players without needing the old "Pass this piece of paper to xxx", making it a little less obvious...

 

[BFalcon]

Interesting points...

I think, if I was playing or GMing right now, I'd be somewhere in the middle... I'd not allow phones at the table though - there's just TOO much temptation to fiddle and not pay attention to what's going on.

I like to keep my notes, my main rulebooks and the character sheets on paper... but then I also keep the character sheets between sessions (for the very reasons you've just cited) and copy them out between sessions (mainly a matter of copying the old sheet and then updating it for this change) and also keep a tab of XP earned (when appropriate) partly so I can spot players who are lacking in XP gains (so I can throw them a "limelight" scenario to help them out) or who are gaining too quickly (so I can examine whether they're dominating the group (possibly at the expense of others) or if I'm being too lean with XP (so can throw a "bumper XP" session to even things up and then adjust the balance in the future). This has the nice side effect of my being able to keep tabs on players who cheat with their XP especially, since I know their previous total, the XP awarded, so hence their current total and the total they're claiming... so any difference is for them to explain... likewise with equipment - anything new popping up I'll probably know about.

Stat change is right out - since I've already got a before-and-after snapshot of their sheets, they're bang to rights if they try it... and cheaters have found their character sheets changed prior to the next session and their stat dropped back to normal and they (strangely) get to be targets for every "randomly" targetted event that occurs... (normally my punishment is to be the "spare" number on a die if the party is an odd-number when randomly determining the victim - I don't like cheaters, so they get to be the victim all the time until they've learned their lesson or leave).

One good comprimise is a scanner - just scan in (at around 300dpi) the character sheets each week and there's no risk of cheating...

As for game preparation, I've been using Excel, CorelDRAW! and other programs since the early 90's (used Pagemaker to make up some decent character sheets when I was at college - a good use of college facilities...), but I get what you mean... game preparation is a lot better with PDF capability.

I've now got my tablet (for the business - it's useful having tech documents handy when working on laptops) and I would be happy to let people use those (without internet access) at the table. Taking a wifi router to a gaming session is hardly a major hassle and it would allow them to each contact the others, if an appropriate piece of software was available.

Netbooks will continue to get more powerful and, although the 10" display is annoying, with an SSD drive will be pretty rugged, so allowing the GM to add notes quickly. Alternatively (and probably less intrusive) would be a tablet with a USB mini-keyboard.

All our IT equipment when we tried it some 8 years ago was out of date tech also, for its time, so yeah, it probably emphasised the bad side of things and not the good - I know, though, that popups used to get annoying, as did clumsy players tripping over leads as they went to the toilet or to get a drink.

Still, I prefer physical dice (and always will) and do prefer paper character sheets (if you can edit a character sheet to amend it, you can still cheat... if you can't, you can't keep track of your character well enough). But that's just me and that's how I'll be until I can find something to convince me otherwise. I also like to see what players are reading - I have caught players browsing through the AD&D monster manual mid-game before now, so don't trust players who are always reading at all, these days.

 

[DFW]

I allow players to use phones & tablets. The ones using smart phones tend to lose their turns a lot as they scroll back and forth trying to find data during combat. Has resulted in a couple of PC deaths.

Dice are rolled on table in front of all. (Except GM rolls)

 

[BFalcon]

A few of my players, if given access to a smartphone, would probably be on facebook, twitter, checking emails or just sending mails or texts mid-game... which is why I said no phones and no net access... there are players, however, that I'd trust to behave with them, I'll admit.

As for the PC deaths, that's funny... paper might (sometimes) take a little time to find things, but it's still quicker (for a handful of pages) than a smartphone.

 

[DFW]

As for the PC deaths, that's funny... paper might (sometimes) take a little time to find things, but it's still quicker (for a handful of pages) than a smartphone.

To be honest, I don't know that they weren't on FB or playing a vid game. I don't discipline for that. In game Darwinism handles it for me. I don't repeat info for players who are not listening, turns are fast paced (move it or lose it), etc.

 

[rust]

If a player is too busy with other things, there is always that famous orbi-
tal cow ... :twisted:

You know, that livestock transporter which failed to close the cargo door
correctly, and so it opens just before he reaches orbit, a cow stumbles
through the door, falls through the atmosphere and hits the character of
the player in question with terminal velocity ... 8)

 

[AndrewW]

As for game preparation, I've been using Excel, CorelDRAW! and other programs since the early 90's (used Pagemaker to make up some decent character sheets when I was at college - a good use of college facilities...), but I get what you mean... game preparation is a lot better with PDF capability.

That late¿

I wrote up a random world generator for Traveller back in the early 80's (and a program for Star Frontiers as well). Been using text based characters since the 80's at least, could just print it out if there was need for a paper copy. Did a world map on the computer probably early 90's.

 

[DFW]

If paper is faster that the smartphone - you formated the sheet wrong :twisted:

For use on Smartphones I never have a 1:1 of the A4/US Legal sheet but rather a "condensed" form. Just listing the skills/attribs and other important stuff.

Right. So, paper is faster. You're example proves it.

 

[DFW]

That late¿

I wrote up a random world generator for Traveller back in the early 80's (and a program for Star Frontiers as well). Been using text based characters since the 80's at least, could just print it out if there was need for a paper copy. Did a world map on the computer probably early 90's.

My 1st random gen was on a TI programmable calc. I 1st stored char sheets on a PDP 11 ~'78.

 

[DFW]

Paper is slower.

Nope. I can view an entire char sheet at one 1 second glance with paper. You cannot on a smart phone.

Pretty simple concept.

 

[DFW]

Where did you get that? It is DEFINITLY wrong!

?? I CAN'T review an entire char sheet at a glance in a second?

I have 4 char sheets in front of me. I can look at them at the same time if I wanted to. Can't do that with a phone. Sorry to put it this way but, What ARE you going on about?

 

[DFW]

No, you can NOT look at them (in the sense of reading/understanding) in a second. You can SEE them, that is all.

Speak for yourself.

When you grow up you will realize that some people have higher abilities than yourself in certain areas.

 

[BFalcon]

As for game preparation, I've been using Excel, CorelDRAW! and other programs since the early 90's (used Pagemaker to make up some decent character sheets when I was at college - a good use of college facilities...), but I get what you mean... game preparation is a lot better with PDF capability.

That late¿

I wrote up a random world generator for Traveller back in the early 80's (and a program for Star Frontiers as well). Been using text based characters since the 80's at least, could just print it out if there was need for a paper copy. Did a world map on the computer probably early 90's.

Not in it to compare e-peens, just saying that, for pre-game preparations, computers have always been useful - it's something of a separate issue to the computers at the table discussion that we've mostly been following in this thread...

But since you wish to, I was also computer programming stuff on the spectrum in the 80's and did a complete diagram of a Consitution class from star trek and a whole load of RPG stuff - if I had been into Traveller back then I'd probably have done so too, but I was very short of money back then and chose another game. Not quite sure where you're coming from with this? I was talking about reasonable reproductions of the character sheets, not just a bunch of unformatted (or barely formatted) text...

Hardly see the point in it though... *shrugs*

 

[BFalcon]

If a player is too busy with other things, there is always that famous orbi-
tal cow ... :twisted:

You know, that livestock transporter which failed to close the cargo door
correctly, and so it opens just before he reaches orbit, a cow stumbles
through the door, falls through the atmosphere and hits the character of
the player in question with terminal velocity ... 8)

LOL have to remember that one - maybe run a murder-mystery plot off some water that leaked from a tanker, froze into a "spear" of ice before it could spread out and then ended up impaling the victim before melting away... I'm surprised that CSI hasn't done that one yet... sounds like one of their plots...

 

[rust]

I'm surprised that CSI hasn't done that one yet... sounds like one of their plots...

Ah - they did, although (if I remember it right) in their case it was the
frozen content of an airliner toilet which hit a construction worker who
had just taken off his helmet ...

 

[BFalcon]

I'm surprised that CSI hasn't done that one yet... sounds like one of their plots...

Ah - they did, although (if I remember it right) in their case it was the
frozen content of an airliner toilet which hit a construction worker who
had just taken off his helmet ...

:roll:

Should have guessed... I doubt there's a single "one-in-a-million" "accident" that hasn't been written into the plot somewhere along the line... and it's funny how there's always only one of something important in the whole city/state...

Ah well... back on topic...

(Unless someone wants to open up a thread on "CSI: Regina"?) :lol: