Squadrons and Centauri

[Omnipotent]

As discussed before I solved this discussion with my play group by not taking owning ANY Vorchans or its sisters of battle 8)

I seem to be doing well with my Centauri (not painted yet, got to darn much school shoit atm) just using the other ships, especially the Darkner/Dargan/maximus squads or Elutarian times two task force...wünderbar :wink:

 

[CZuschlag]

--Agrees with Triggy completely.

If you look closely, you'll see there's another absolute BRUTE of a Skirmish ship in the Centauri arsenal, the Mograth. I'm convinced this thing is just awful also; the beamhorde you can make with these things is spectacular. Sure, it's range 12, but 6 dice of DD beam for 1 raid point? With the current fleet breakdown rules? Sign me up!

Of course, we don't see these little soulslayers out on the table ... because we only see Demos and (if we're lucky!) Vorchans. Why? Because other players have found even better.

What does that say about the Demos?
What does that say about the Vorchan?

 

[Lord David the Denied]

The Morgrath is only range 10" on the beam. It's an oddity rather than a winner with only 2 dice on the shiort-range beam. It's no better than a Thentus or Ka'Toc.

The Vorchan is fair, nasty punch in one arc, fast and agile but fragile and totally defenceless against fighter attack. The Demos is better but only a little; it struggles to really hurt high hull targets but it shines when used against low-level oppoents which it can seriously hurt in on salvo. Ion cannons look nice but your chance of hurting hull 6 ships is low, even with your reroll, then interceptors make the hits you do get vanish.

The Demos needs a tweak to bring the ion cannon in line with the Vorchan. The Vorchan doesn't need to be changed. Anyone claiming otherwise is having a knee-jerk reaction to seeing them used well.

 

[skavendan]

*Pets* The Morgrath it's not a overly powerful.

The Vorchan is a nice mid-ranger fires constantly no stupid slow loading...

Demos is the nasty one lets of a big volley and then goes CBDs o dear so what I can still fire my 1 weapon

 

[Da Boss]

Needing a 2AD tweak doesn't make it the most broken ship in the game. People are crying because they see Demos used well. It's a little bit too good, but that's not the same as the most broken ship ever...

I never said ever, and I don't agree with a 2AD tweak either...roughly 3-4AD brings it back down to the Vorchan and the Vorchan is probably slightly overpowered too.

Given that most people would vote the Demos as the most broken ship in 2nd ed. (excluding the Gaim), I'd say it probably is too.

Well maybe........maybe not but a reduction of 2AD would certainly be better than the present situation yes? I presume it will be in the update book :wink:

 

[Diesel]

Having faced 6 Demos in the Gorgonzola tournament fleet, I have to say that they weren't actually that scary.

OK, so they took out a lot of Drazi Sunhawks and a Warbird, but then again they didn't so much as scratch anything bigger and the Juyaca present was essentially just laughing at the feeble attempts to damage it.

As with most things, it's horses for courses. Scary amounts of firepower can only cover over a paper-thin hull for so long. If the enemy survives the Demos' opening salvo (and if it's a Raid ship or bigger, it definitely will, and it'll be a stretch to nail a Skirmish ship) then the Demos itself is in very deep trouble!

 

[Burger]

The Demos/Vorchan aren't particularly paper-thin are they? Hull 5, 19 damage is not too shabby for Skirmish. A little below average perhaps, but there are quite a few worse off!

 

[Diesel]

Probably not. The odds are good I was just lucky when it came to shooting them down, but didn't seem to struggle using Drazi Warbirds.

 

[Triggy]

Needing a 2AD tweak doesn't make it the most broken ship in the game. People are crying because they see Demos used well. It's a little bit too good, but that's not the same as the most broken ship ever...

I never said ever, and I don't agree with a 2AD tweak either...roughly 3-4AD brings it back down to the Vorchan and the Vorchan is probably slightly overpowered too.

Given that most people would vote the Demos as the most broken ship in 2nd ed. (excluding the Gaim), I'd say it probably is too.

Well maybe........maybe not but a reduction of 2AD would certainly be better than the present situation yes? I presume it will be in the update book :wink:

I can't see them not losing at least 2AD. The arguament whether it should be 2AD, 3AD or 4AD still goes on...

 

[Da Boss]

I would go for 2AD myself and see what difference it makes - IMHO -4 maybe too much (so maybe 3 :lol: ) )

Of course it did achieve the desired objective of having people playing with the signature Centauri ships

Just underneath that in the book be nice to see
some revised Abbai
The Octurion with a 24" beam or missiles instead
The GQuan a 6 AD Beam
The Nemisis a little better
Shadow Skirmish Ship (infiltration transport)
Volron Raid ship (light frigate)


oh and Shadow fighters - please, please :lol:

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Slash the Demos' ion cannon by 4AD and no one will use it, guaranteed. It just won't have the teeth to be useful. Knock it down by three and people will have to seriously consider if they want to take it. Knock it down by two and it's fair.

 

[skavendan]

Personally it's not that scary and only 19 points of damage so not exactly hard to kill. Just hard to target.

 

[Greg Smith]

Personally it's not that scary and only 19 points of damage so not exactly hard to kill. Just hard to target.

But every other turn it gets to close blast doors for free.

It isn't so much that the Demos is hugely broken, it is just significantly better than the Vorchan, in most people's opinion.

 

[skavendan]

true but my problem there is the rule Close blast doors not the ship in question.

A low level ship can fly as normal... fire 1 weapon...

a battle or war class can do the same? how is that balanced maybe if it was the ship can fire one less weapon that way big ships could be annoying too....

 

[CZuschlag]

Not in my case, Greg. I think it's hugely broken.

 

[Triggy]

I think if neither could Close Blast Doors and the Demos was reduced by 2AD then they would be about equal. Given that the Demos can use CBD a lot more effectively than the Vorchan, in my opinion it would need slightly more of a decrease.

If the Vorchan became the more favourable choice I wouldn't have a problem, as it is I think the Vorchan is slightly too good, but only as much as several other ships in the game.

 

[Da Boss]

I do vaguely remember people saying that the Vorchan was the better ship cos it fire all its guns every turn - Although I disagree - the interceptors are most usful against various races.

 

[katadder]

I think the demos at the same ion cannon AD as the vorchan is fine as its missiles really dont match upto the plasma of the vorchan for me.
one thing you could say is that a ships slow loading weapons dont count as a weapon the turn they are reloading - this would result in the demos only counting as having one weapon the turn after it fires its torps and therefore cannot go onto CBD without penalty.

 

[Garthim]

Being a centauri player, i do feel the demos could use alittle touch up myself. Make the torpedoes 4 AD, so people might actually consider taking the Elutarian more often, and lower the ion cannons to 8 AD. Make people decide if they want pure damage versus a crit hunter.

Also, when I make a squadron, I rarely, if ever, take a demos. Vorchans have been my mainstay skirmish for as long as I have played centauri because I like being able to fire every turn. As yes, they can go boom real quick if your opponent knows how to fight against centauri. Against new players, the vorchans and demos can seem over powered, but thats because they aren't expecting the punch 4 of them firing together can do. They are use to the show where only the biggest ships are dishing out the damage. Have a friend who plays EA Crusade that after he fought my centauri felt vorchan squadrons were overpowered, but after a few more games relized the advantages to Chronos and Hermes squadrons, and thunderbolts to counter me and there has been no problem since.

 

[Target]

Its seems that it's more a problem with the CBD Special action. Maybe it could change to 1/2 AD like IDF, gives bigger ships a better use of it than smaller since they tend to have more weapon systems. I'd even make it -1 to the damage roll instead of 5+ save eg 1-2 bulkhead 3-5 normal & 6 still a 6 which would mean precise goes 1 Bulkhead 2-5 normal & 6 crit.
This way a demos would be only doing 5AD in the alternating rounds when a Vorchan would be 4AD & 2 AD.

I would even go further on the crit table & reduce how much extra damage is done. The crit should be enough of a problem without crits doing extra dam. Some should do extra still. Another way is only let the bigger ships, lets say raid up do the extra damage with crits. Gives you a reason to bring bigger ships to the battle.