Sorcerer blues

[LilithsThrall]

I'm a new player in need of help building a Sorcerer character.
We are all third level. I'm the only Sorcerer in the bunch. Everyone else seems to be doing great in combat (averaging over "20" on to hits and about 20 points of damage per attack). I'm looking over the options available to me for combat and I'm finding powers that give me a +1 once per week (Astrological Prediction), a curse which bestows -1 on to hits, damage, saves, and ability checks, and a spell which gives me a pet german shepherd. I'm underwhelmed and feel like the sorcerer is incredibly unbalanced (far too weak) compared to the other characters. Worse, as I look ahead, I don't see a power jump happening any time soon. At 4th level, I'll be able to summon a few worthless undead, at 5th level I'll be able to magically remove the ring around my bathtub (having finally qualified for Conjuring), at 8th level I will have maxed out the effectiveness of most of the Hypnotism spells, also at 8th level I will have maxed out the effectiveness of Demonic Pact (the demons available to pact with using Demonic Pact are all about 8 hit die) without being able to upgrade to Greater Demonic Pact until 12th level. To make things even worse, the game says that the Sorcerer often falls back on alchemy and herbalism in combat, but also makes it clear that such items (and their raw components) are incredibly expensive, incredibly rare, and incredibly difficult to get ahold of.
Where's the bang in the Sorcerer class? How do I build an effective Sorcerer?

 

[Spectator]

Dude, this is going to be the first of many response with the theme of "Patience Grasshopper" and "this ain't D-n-D."

Sorcerors blow at lower levels and really don't come into full usefulness until about 12th level.

As for your demonic pact, your demon even though its 8th level should still be able to kick ass on most PCs and NPCs unless they are carrying around silver clubs to bludgeon it with. Remember that the demon will terrify just about everything it encounters causing them to crap their pants and drop their weapons to run away at a fast pace.

As for your conjuring class, invest in Telekinesis and start hurling daggers at your distant opponents with pinpoint accuracy. Invest in Great Telekinises and start hurling bigger rocks at them.

Great thing about Conan and sorcery is that one display of sorcery is enough to scare an entire village into submission.

Heck, get your sorceror to the border kingdom, find a medium sized settlement, conjure a demon, take out the chieftain, and then be their overlord, sell the uppity males into slavery, and have your own fiefdom. This could be accomplished at 5th level, foreseeably. I think that would be worthy of a level or two of increase right there.

Also note that the scholar has a better hit dice of d6 as opposed to d4 and that the advancement tables in terms of combat are better than DnD. Don;t take this to mean your scholar should ever be in the frontlines, but they did mitigate the scholars slow progression with some benefits.

 

[LilithsThrall]

The thing is, I don't see how, even at 12th level, they get any substantial power boost.
In the meantime, yippee that they are more effective at really long ranges with TK than others are with a bow - <sarcasm>fortunately, in Conan, you don't spend much time trampling through ruins and the like (you know, the kinds of places where range ceases to be a factor)</sarcasm>
I guess I'm a bit disgruntled. Every review of the game system I've read so far has talked about how great it is. Now that I've spent over $40.00 on it, I see its completely unbalanced and sorcerers are stuck with the awesome power to, err, increase crop yield?
I mean, I -want- to believe in this game after all the positives I've heard about it, but I need somebody to throw me a bone. What exactly is Conan so afraid of - that some Sorcerer will come and freshen up his clothes a bit?

 

[VincentDarlage]

IMHO, sorcerers are better as villains than PCs, unless the PC wants to pick up a few levels here and there to supplement their other classes; however, spells such as Demonic Pact have been extremely useful for the few scholar PCs I have had.

They are not combat characters - they are support characters - unless you multiclass.

As for the rarity of alchemical items, keep in mind that sorcerers are also rare (in terms of percent of population). Most sorcerers will have a ready source and supply.

 

[steventirey1985]

Note: I have the pre-Atlantian edition of the book, so some of the spells might have changed:

Gelid Bones: 1 pp, will save negates. If they fail the save, the target is paralyzed for the duration. Most characters have poor will saves.

Death Touch: 2pp, fort save for partial effect. Kills on a failed save. Even on a successful save, target is still stunned and can not take any actions for a round.

Draw Forth the Heart: 7 pp, fort save for partial effect. On a failed save, target dies and you regain some PP. On a successful save, target still takes 4d6 damage, and may only take a move or standard action on his next turn.

Now the last 2 do require a fortitude save, which is a good save for most characters, but still have an effect on a failed save.

Also, using Summon Demon to summon a Black Fiend (which can be done at 8th level, or 6th level if you can meet the prerequisite +4 MAB). Black Fiends are immune to physical damage (except fire and damage from silver weapons).

Compared to Dungeons and Dragons, sorcerors are weak at low levels, but near the midlevels and beyond, they can get powerful.

 

[Spectator]

Heck, my man, I don't want you to give up on the game, you just spent $40.00 on.
If you find that sorcerors are weak, House rule some advantages: add a power point each level, double the amount of spells they would normally get, Change some of the pre-reqs for spells, etc...

Dude you are the GM you can make it happen.

Mongoose won't send the Rules-As-Written police and bust up your gaming session. (I hope)

One of the things that I have done is not switched over to 2nd Ed. Conan because I have fleshed a system of house rules that my group is totally comfortable with. We adhere to RAW about 95% of the material and some of the stuff we ad-hoc to make it faster, better, and sexier.

Remember don't get caught up in what some other's rules are, make your own. It's encouraged (I think).

BTW Mongoose Police, Spectator did not write this message. His kid brother, me, hijacked his laptop.

 

[LilithsThrall]

Heck, my man, I don't want you to give up on the game, you just spent $40.00 on.
If you find that sorcerors are weak, House rule some advantages: add a power point each level, double the amount of spells they would normally get, Change some of the pre-reqs for spells, etc...

The problem isn't how many PPs they get or how many spells they get, its the quality of the spells they get. Sorcerers shouldn't have to wait until high levels to be effective and then only have such boring effects (save or die) and game unbalancing effects (summon a guy who can't be hurt except with silver, fire, and magic? - sounds like potentially an instant TPK to me). There should be a sense of wonder about what they can do (yes, I said "wonder" because you can't have true -fear- without a sense of wonder). And if I was just going to house rule, I could have done that without spending the $40.00.
There's a lot about the game that I like and I think the game developers' intentions were in the right place. But they've got to do better with regards to sorcery. Maybe they will do just that in the Secrets of Skelos. If so, I'll gladly spend a little more cash.
Here's a little blasphemy - maybe they could write an expansion book to the game which has stuff that wasn't in the Conan Universe, but carries the same tone - maybe some Andre Norton stuff.

 

[VincentDarlage]

The problem isn't how many PPs they get or how many spells they get, its the quality of the spells they get. Here's a little blasphemy - maybe they could write an expansion book to the game which has stuff that wasn't in the Conan Universe, but carries the same tone.

Many of the sourcebooks contain new spells. Some of them, such as Across the Thunder River, have spells that weren't in the Conan universe, but were described by REH in his non-Conan stories. Pirate Isles, The Free Companies, Scrolls of Skelos, and Hyboria's Finest all have new spells, in addition to the regional sourcebooks. The job of the core rules is to stick to the core material.

 

[Ichabod]

Is the game all about combat effectiveness? It's quite canonical for the barbarian to have a good chance of wasting the sorcerer when they get into a fight.

Defensive Blast (first edition, anyway, as I haven't memorized the various DBs in 2nd) is an insane power for a character to have. It opens up all sorts of tactical options and is far more effective in some situations than the "I Cleave" combat. Should be brutal for a low level party since they will take on things that blow up easy. Of course, it's completely brutal to a low level party, but that's another story.

But, one hopes that if the game was going to be nothing but a slugfest or hack and slash that it would be made clear before deciding what character to play. Politically or just diplomatically, hypnotism is kind of useful. Exploringwise, knowledge skills are rather desirable. The intent with scholars is really to be knowledgeable and manipulative with some splashy effects that may not always be useful, not to be the artillery that is a D&D wizard or the do everything that is the cleric.

If you aren't using your copious number of skill ranks, at a minimum, then there's something distinct about your campaign. If being the wise guy isn't your goal and you just want to nuke the world, play 1E with Opportunistic Sacrifice and go nova with DB on a regular basis. Or, don't play Conan where the genre is supposed to be one where magic is powerful but not video gamish.

 

[LilithsThrall]

The game is at least as much "out of combat" as it is "in combat". In both, being a new player, I'm just trying to figure out which end of the stick to point towards the bad guy (I mean, I'm still trying to learn my way around). Perhaps I'll be more "out of combat" effective as I learn my way around - though even the nobles in the group seem to be more combat effective than I am (shouldn't they be in the same boat I'm in?)
I'm not just looking to nuke the bad guy, but there were two fights the first night we played. I spent the first of the two of them (a bar fight) reading the Conan book because there was nothing I could do. In the next fight, we were fighting a spider demon so I cast Raise Corpse which basically just hosed the party (due to making them roll terror checks) rather than helping them out. Then I ran away - leaving the rest of the party to stand and fight (I've got no armor, really bad Dex, Con, and Str, and a dagger - not really built for melee against a Spider Demon).
Its not about being able to nuke the bad guy. Its about being able to make an active contribution in combat.
I've got no problem with a Barbarian being able to slaughter a Sorcerer in one-on-one combat. My character is third level (yes, I messed up and selected Raise Corpse when I don't qualify for it). In d20, a Barbarian will just about always be able to slaughter a Wizard at third level. However, the Wizard will be able to contribute in a fight, even if its just Magic Missile, at third level. Compare Magic Missile to the kinds of things a Sorcerer can do at 3rd level - get a +1 on any one roll once per week? That's pathetic.
Its all the worse because the non-magical stuff has all had a power increase compared to d20 SRD. I'm in the same shoes a first edition fighter was in against an 18th level wizard, only I'm not even a good body shield.

 

[Spectator]

OK my final suggestion before I give up hope (sorry for being melodramatic).

Why don't you create some spells that you think would fit in this genre?

Just cause they're not in the rules doesn't mean that can't exist.

Vincent Darlaage invented numerous spells for his works and they were not all necessarily found in the books, however they were all in the Conan Spirit (eg: minimal flashiness, no fireballs, chain lightening, etc...).

Hypnotism is a damn good class to have, instead of having your fighters start hacking and slashing have an understanding that you will try out your 'entrance' spell on the opposing party's leader?

If they want to keep the hack and slash then let themknow you aren't going to meaningfully contribute to combat but you have no prob splitting the treasure and exp. pts.

As for your demonic pact, use that sucker more often, promise your demon the souls of those enemies he kills! He should be more willing to fight then?

 

[Jakusotsu]

You've got many options, and it depends on the style of game the GM runs. You've said that you spend as much time "in combat" as "out of combat" and this is a good sign.

The first thing that must be realized is that Conan is not all about combat. There are many obstacles that can't be fought, and many ways other than fighting to solve those obstacles that can be fought. First, let's take a look at some of the other classes: Borderer, Barbarian and Nomad get a lot of wilderness survival stuff. They aren't as good at fighting as a standard soldier, but in many Conan games, the environment is a serious obstacle that their special abilities help them overcome. Likewise, the Noble get some combat bonuses, and has the luxury of being able to afford the good armor. This can make a noble very fearsome in combat, but he lacks the versatility of the other classes -- without that armor, he's dead meat. What the noble does have that makes up for that is a wide variety of social abilities and privileges.

So every class except the Soldier is meant for something other than direct combat. The other classes are more or less proficient at combat, depending on how they approach combat within their special angle.

What does the Scholar bring to the party? The first thing that's obvious is that Scholar is the least combat-capable class. But they do have things that no other class gets. One of the easiest to overlook is their high amounts of skill points. With all those skill points, a scholar can have an amazing amount of Knowledges. Does your GM run games with mystery, politics or other themes that a little knowledge can be useful in? If so, the scholar can be a serious boon to the party. On a related note, Scholars get the Knowledge is Power class feature, which ensures they have a chance to have useful facts available regardless of where they put their Knowledge skills.

On a related note, all those skill points can be used to round out social skills. This can make your sorcerer a power behind thrones, an outright tyrant or a cunning manipulator. Consider putting points into Intimidation. You command the black arts. Who needs to get into a fight when you can make your enemies soil themselves with a display of your evil power? Now, depending on where you are in the Hyborian Age, you may have to keep a little quieter about this, as this sort of behavior may summon a peasant mob with pitchforks after you.

Another thing you can do with your skillpoints is craft things. Craft (Herbalism) and Craft (Alchemy) are very strong. Look through the sorcery section of the book and note things like Acheronian Demon Fire, Kothic Demon Fire, various poisons, lotus extracts, etc. They're expensive, but they're very powerful. If you raise your crafting abilities and use them wisely, you can definitely save the day when the situation turns bad.

Consider also your ability to use War of Souls. If there are other sorcerous entities in the games your GM is running, this can be key. You might be able to save the party by engaging in a War of Souls for a few precious rounds with other sorcerers, demons, etc. It's very risky, especially in the case of demons, but PCs in my games have used this to great effect, paralyzing their enemy at the cost of some Corruption. It makes for a noble sacrifice without actually costing the PC his life. Very helpful, very dramatic.

And then there's Defense Blast. I don't know if you're using Atlantean Edition or Second Edition, but either way, your Defensive Blast is not something that can be overlooked. It's not something you can use liberally, but it has a huge effect on a fight. Afterward, you'll have 0 power points and this is an obstacle, but it can be overcome. If the other PCs are comfortable with your evil sorcery, you can save an almost-dead enemy and sacrifice him for more PP. Or you can even persuade a PC to submit to an energy drain willingly and regain your PP that way at the cost of their Wisdom.

And we haven't even talked about the actual spells you get yet. Since there are so many, I can only paint a picture in broad brush strokes, but let's take a look.

Divination: Not much for combat here. But it lets you KNOW THE FUTURE. It let's you see things far away. It's amazing. If the plots your GM is running have any kind of complexities, Divination could be a huge boon to the party.

Counterspells: Ward by Will is a great spell for combat situations that will make you much more resilient. Incantation of Amalric's Witchman is absolutely essential if you know you're going to be fighting demons any time soon. The rest are all varying degrees of good if you every cross the paths of any other sorcerers.

Nature Magic: There's some good stuff here, particularly if you're looking at combat. Being able to summon a variety of very dangerous animals is strong. Wolves, Lions, Apes, whatever. These things all have significant impacts on a combat. It'll cost you a little bit of experience, but Nature Magic is one of the best categories for combat-intensive magic.

Necromancy: Now that your allies have encountered the Risen Dead, they won't have to make a fear check again. The animated dead aren't swift enough to stop a clever enemy, but a couple of them can cause serious trouble for people trying more conventional tactics, as they are very strong. At higher levels, you get all kinds of sick spells.

Hypnotism: This is another good one for those looking to flex some combat potential. Entrance will remove the most dangerous enemy from a fight every turn. Higher level spells will make enemies into allies. This is pretty huge.

Prestidigitation: Not all that stellar by itself in combat, but add some Kothic Demon Fire and it gets scary. It's useful for all sorts of non-combat stuff, too.

Summoning: Most enemies won't be prepared to deal with demons. Enough said.

Oriental Magic: This gives you access to some interesting stuff. It's particularly useful if you're doing a little multi-classing. If you get this and Cursing, you can get Gelid Bones, which is one of the best low-level combat skills there is.

Cursing: Not one of the most dramatic combat abilities, but it's useful in so many other situations. Remember that you don't have to physically confront someone to use most of these abilities. Sneak into their room and steal their hairbrush. Take a few strands of hair and make their lives a living hell from the comfort of home. If you've got recurring enemies, this sort of thing can be very strong.

And finally, you've got a .75 base attack progression. You said your physical Abilities were weak, but that can be changed pretty quickly. You get a bonus Attribute at 4th level, which is coming up soon for you, and at 6th level and every couple levels thereafter. If you pump your physical Abilities a little, you'll quickly find yourself half-way decent at fighting. Consider getting a crossbow, bow or some other ranged or reach weapon so that you're not over exposed.

Also, multiclassing is your friend. If you want to be able to stand toe-to-toe with your enemies, consider a level of Soldier. You'll get access to all the weapons and armor, and a nice combat feat. Wrap yourself in some chainmail, a helm and gear up with a big sword or axe. Even with average physical stats, you'll be a threat on the battlefield and you'll have magic to supplement off the battlefield. If you don't like Soldier, use your sorcerous powers to entrench yourself in the local nobility and take a level of Noble. Then you'll get armor, weapons and a lot of money to sink into things like Kothic Demon Fire.

The options are limitless. Just familiarize yourself with them and go with what sounds awesome.

 

[LilithsThrall]

Why don't you create some spells that you think would fit in this genre?

I think that's what I'm going to have to do, but really I shouldn't have to. The game shouldn't have such a big hole in it.

 

[Malcadon]

I'm a new player in need of help building a Sorcerer character.
We are all third level. I'm the only Sorcerer in the bunch. Everyone else seems to be doing great in combat (averaging over "20" on to hits and about 20 points of damage per attack). I'm looking over the options available to me for combat and I'm finding powers that give me a +1 once per week (Astrological Prediction), a curse which bestows -1 on to hits, damage, saves, and ability checks, and a spell which gives me a pet german shepherd. I'm underwhelmed and feel like the sorcerer is incredibly unbalanced (far too weak) compared to the other characters. Worse, as I look ahead, I don't see a power jump happening any time soon. At 4th level, I'll be able to summon a few worthless undead, at 5th level I'll be able to magically remove the ring around my bathtub (having finally qualified for Conjuring), at 8th level I will have maxed out the effectiveness of most of the Hypnotism spells, also at 8th level I will have maxed out the effectiveness of Demonic Pact (the demons available to pact with using Demonic Pact are all about 8 hit die) without being able to upgrade to Greater Demonic Pact until 12th level. To make things even worse, the game says that the Sorcerer often falls back on alchemy and herbalism in combat, but also makes it clear that such items (and their raw components) are incredibly expensive, incredibly rare, and incredibly difficult to get ahold of.
Where's the bang in the Sorcerer class? How do I build an effective Sorcerer?

I know what you are talking about. The Conan warrior classes are noticeably better the D&D warrior classes, but the Sorcerers in Conan start off with weak spells that offer little in the way of combat.

Like how the fighting classes are supplemented with side-rules (like Combat Maneuvers), so to do Sorcerers benefit from side-rule all their own. In battle, Sorcerers will find their ability to sacrifices fallen enemies and draining the energy of the helpless is vary useful. If you are doing good in combat (taking opponents down by spell or weapon), then you will benefit from the Rules of Success. War of the Souls should not be overlooked ether. One of the neat things about this system is how the rules work together. So if you cast Draw Forth the Heart, you can recoup lost PP, and can re-cast it on other people with greater power and to the point of it costing 1 PP to re-cast! (as long as you dont fail!) So, even a mid-level Scholar is capable of becoming a walking death-machine that can spend all night riping men's hearts out!!! :twisted:

Not all of the low-level spells are weak. Warding (and other spells of it ilk) is really good for countering other spells. Gelid Bones can pin-down an enemy at an hour a level. The Entrance spell is vary useful to help your friends get in a sneak attack (or a desperate stab). Dread Serpent is a nasty little spell. Oriental magic provides lots of bonuses. Deflection is vary useful in defense. Don't discount the effectiveness of Raise Corpse! People in D&D may shrug them off, but in Conan, thay scare the s**t out of people, and The Dead Speak spell can really f**k with your enemy's head. Demonic Pact is useful if you want instant power! Never discount any of the Conan demons, as they are vary powerful! The only problem with a demonic pact is that you are that demon's bitch! :shock: The real power comes at higher level, when you can learn Master of Words & Signs. If you learn this, the demon would become your bitch!!! :twisted:

Alchemical & herbal items are available to scholars at 1st level and are vary useful to have. Don't fret over the cost of such item as money is not a problem and finding such items make for a good plot.

As for how you can make a good Sorcerer? Well try to think more along the lines of role-playing then roll-paying. If you want to play a druid-type Sorcerer, then invest in Nature magic and Knowledge (nature). If you want to be a witch-hunter, then invest in Counter-spells. If you want to keep up in battle, then invest in Prestidigitation and/or Oriental magic. An important thing to note is that the presents of a Sorcerer will turn the tide of battle as sorcery is rightfully feared!

PS. I like your nick. It sound like a Temptress/Scholar with a demonic pact to an evil pleasure goddess! :wink:

 

[sidkfjjteidlkkf]

Good answers here, as there always are.

Do you have the Hyboria's finest series or access to them? Damn good selections from those and it lets you decide what you really want to do..

I do allow Sorcerers as PC's and they are week at the start. But things get better as they level out.

I would recommend doing one style at least: Summoning And definately demonic pact.

From there take Necromancy...

 

[Vortigern]

While I would tentatively agree that Sorcery could use some boosting in Conan... I wouldn't really say it needs 'that' much. Some more spell writeups, perhaps slightly faster spell acquisition at lower levels, and a lowering of the base gold prices on all the alchemical items by say a factor of ten would do fine by me.

My largest gripe I suppose is that alchemical and herbal items, while logically rare, should be easy and accessible for scholar characters to be throwing around. As is, much depends on the flow of gold in the game obviously, yet the cost even to have a decent lab and make yourself some of the lesser alchemical items is rather crippling to the budget... and in my opinion takes them out of the hands of lower level scholars. Exactly the characters that need them the most.

Now... as for the sorcerous abilities of a scholar... Basically you need a pick a niche for your sorcerer to focus on until they have mastered it if you want to be good at anything. And realize that said niche can either be a style of sorcerous combat, or, well... not combat. You have to pick between having utility spells and combat spells rather sharply. (One reason sorcerers should have easier access to alchemy/herbalism.)

Flipping through the sorcery section of the core rules and picking something that looks cool is suicide in the long-term. Not just because you may not fully understand what you have chosen but also because you need to understand/plan for the progression of the character and what branch of the spell tree you are following. As for being an aggressive scholar at lower levels I really only see three options.

Prestidigitation / Cursing / Hypnotism

Prestidigation, paired with either access to alchemy/herbalism and/or a bit of preparation in the realm of objects to throw and/or tricks to perform, can be rather dramatically effective. Using this skill with some sleight of hand to throw some flaming powder on someone whle making it look like a spell is like a double whammy. You look cool, you do some mojo that looks flat out impossible in the game, and it is oh so Howard anyway. Oh, and the bad guy burns to death as a bonus. Following into advanced levels with 'Loft to the Sky' and the animate spells is also nice.

Cursing as has been mentioned previously is a path that opens the door, once again, to preparing for the fight before you get there. Pick your target, send your temptress or thief henchman after them to gather magical links, and cast away. Greater Ill-fortune with a whopping -4 to most everything for a -year- can by itself make your enemy capitulate. If not, well... -4 means a whole lot in a conan fight. Do a power ritual or sacrifice a few heathen savages (5sp for one rebellious savage slave... not exactly expensive.) to max out your power points and you can throw even the big curses a few times in a prolonged night of fighting.

Hypnotism is versatile. Turn a baddie into a flunkie, and have the ability to 'whisper darkly' into their ear in a social setting? Not to be scoffed at.

The key to remember in Conan sorcery is that there is very little direct damage ever coming from the sorcerer save for alchemy and poison until higher levels. A scholar as stated before is, at lower levels, a support character. Mid-level and beyond you can start being your own man... but your goal at lower levels is really to survive until you can start to flex your sorcerous might. Just don't expect to ever be able to forego your sword wielding companions. You need them. But play your cards right and very soon they should be feeling like they need you to protect them from the enemy's sorcery just as much. (Warding is the whole party's friend!)

 

[LilithsThrall]

I really hate to be a grouch here, but Prestidigitation isn't available to a Sorcerer until fifth level without either cherry picking the race or multiclassing with either Thief or Temptress. Cursing is underwhelming until Greater Ill-fortune (which means 6th level) - even then, its not all that great (with the single exception of Gelid Bones). Hypnotism starts to run out of steam around 8th level - which means that many of those great spells you spent your few spell slots on soon become mostly useless. Nature has some neat abilities, but you shouldn't have to spend exp to be effective - exp shouldn't be a resource.
And, again, alchemy costs far too much and herbalism requires a quest across several countries to find the plants (although at higher levels, if you have the seeds, you can use Sorcerous Garden, that isn't available to low level Sorcerers).
So, at low levels, playing a Sorcerer is akin to playing a 1st edition low level Wizard. Joy.

What I'd like to see is a Sorcerer who, at low levels, has easy, affordable access to the alchemical items and herbal stuff (the alchemical stuff should be cheap for them, its the knowledge of how to put it together into a finished product that makes the finished product expensive - the herbal stuff might be available through the knowledge of how to build a garden) and a few truly useful spells. At high levels, they should be capable of a few truly epic spells and many truly useful spells (nothing particularly flashy with the exception of Necromancy and Summoning) and, perhaps, some more powerful alchemy items (stuff that is -exceedingly- rare for non-Sorcerers). Also, sleight of hand should be a class skill and there might be some feats built off of sleight of hand.

 

[steventirey1985]

Prestidigitation is available at first level, if you have at least 12 Intelligence.

Skill points gain through having a high intelligence can be spent on any skill as if it were a class skill. Or at least thats how its done in the pre-Atlantian edition.

 

[LilithsThrall]

Prestidigitation is available at first level, if you have at least 12 Intelligence.

Skill points gain through having a high intelligence can be spent on any skill as if it were a class skill. Or at least thats how its done in the pre-Atlantian edition.

Thanks for pointing that out. Its true in 2nd ed as well (though the way its written is kinda weird).

 

[Jakusotsu]

I spent a few minutes putting together some effective, 3rd level sorcerers in order to demonstrate some of the points that we've been bringing up. I built them off 28 points using the point-buy system described in 2nd Edition. I tried to include all the synergy bonuses I could think of in their skills, and I tried not to use any stuff outside the core book.

Stygian Cultist (Noble 1/Scholar 2)

Str: 14
Dex: 10
Con: 10
Int: 14
Wis: 14
Cha: 14

Skills: Knowledge (Arcana) +10, Knowledge (Religion) +8, Perform (Ritual) +6, Craft (Alchemy) +12, Craft (Herbalism) +10, Handle Animal +4, Knowledge (Local) +4, Bluff +7, Diplomacy +7, Intimidate +7, Sleight of Hand +7, Disguise +5, Profession (Scribe) +4, Gather Information +5, Sense Motive +5, Heal +6

HP: 15
Parry: 12, Dodge: 10
Initiative: +4
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+3
Magic Attack Bonus: +1 (+3 after Cha modifier)
Attack: Stygian Bow +3 (1D12+2, 19-20/x2, range 60ft), Bronze Kophesh +3, (2d4, 18-20)
Saves: Fort +0, Ref +0, Will +7 (-2 to saving throws vs. corruption)

Special: Knowledge is Power (+4), Background: Lay Priest, Scholar, Title, Rank Hath Its Privileges, Wealth, Fate Points: 3, Reputation: Something High, Social Standing +5

Feats:
Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Stygian Bow, Weapon Focus: Stygian Bow, Improved Initiative, Point Blank Shot

Power Points: 7
Sorcery Styles: Hypnotism, Prestidigitation
Spells Known: Entrance, Conjuring, Terrible Fascination (Defensive Blast)

Average Total Budget: 950 silver. I’m not going to list all the things you can spend this on, but you can get him some weapons, armor, etc, and (since Crafting rules reduce the cost of things by 1/3 if you make them yourself) you can still have enough money to purchase a couple globes of Kothic Demon Fire.

This character can advance in several directions. Another level of Noble is probably good for him, and after that one can focus on scholar all the way up. He needs to pick up some Knowledge (Nobility) as well. Knowledge (Mystery) would be good for him as well, and he will benefit from the Priest Feat later on.

He can contribute to normal combat in several ways. He can, obviously, fire his bow with some proficiency. He can drop a Globe of Demon Fire. He can also Entrance and use Terrible Fascination to take out one or more enemies completely from the combat. Also, having the Hypnotism Sorcery Style gives him +4 to his War of Souls checks, and his strong Will save means he’ll be resistant to other sorcerous shenanigans. Also, he’s socially competent. After battles, he can do a pretty decent job of healing wounded party members. This guy is very dangerous and very versatile for a third level character.









Corrupt Nemedian Philosopher (Scholar 3)

Str: 10
Dex: 10
Con: 10
Int: 16
Wis: 14
Cha: 14

Skills: Knowledge (Arcana) +13, Knowledge (Religion) +11, Knowledge (Geography) +11, Knowledge (History) +10 , Knowledge (Local) +10, Knowledge (Nobility) +10, Knowledge (Geography) +10, Intimidate +10, Bluff +7, Diplomacy +4, Sleight of Hand +3, Disguise +5, Craft (Alchemy) +10, Craft (Herbalism) +10, Heal +4, Sense Motive +5, Gather Information +5, Move Silently +4, Hide +4, Listen +5, Spot +5

Special: Weapon Familiarity: Great Sword, Adaptability: Knowledge (Arcana), Intimidate. Fate Points: 4. Knowledge is Power +6, Scholar, Background: Demonic Pact, Corruption: 1

HP: 13
Parry: 11, Dodge: 11
Initiative: +0
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+2
Magic Attack Bonus: +1 (+3 after Cha modifier)
Attack: Great Sword +2, (1d10+1d8, 19-20/x2)
Saves: Fort +0, Ref +0, Will +3

Feats: Martial Weapon Proficiency, Knowledgeable, Ritual Sacrifice

Power Points: 7
Sorcery Styles: Summoning, Counterspells,
Spells Known: Demonic Pact, Warding, Channel Demon, Ward by Will, Master Aid Me! (Defensive Blast)

This character will be amusing to play and will definitely catch people by surprise. As far as advancement goes, the player will probably want to raise his physical stats and occasionally invest into a combat feat. Power Attack in particular will serve him well. The Immortality Sorcery style is a good choice later on.

This character has a lot of unholy ass-kickery at his disposal, but he will want to use it sparingly. In normal fights, he can use Ward by Will to protect himself as he swings his great sword around, doing a respectable, though not mind-blowing, amount of damage. When push comes to shove, he can use Channel Demon to up his combat abilities considerably. Combined with Ward by Will he will be nearly invincible for a couple turns and his damage will be considerable. When power points start to run low, use Master Aide Me! To summon a demon and finish off the fight. This will cost quite a bit in terms of corruption, so it must be used sparingly. Corruption can be staved off, however, with Fate Points. Outside of combat, this man is a genius. He has +10 or so in just about every relevant knowledge, he’s socially competent and he’s even passable at sneaking around.