Sorcerer blues

[Sir Hackalot]

Scholar/Sorcerors can be difficult for people used the D&D and the like. They have potential but you have to be creative. I do wish that it wasn't such a chore to make mid to high level Sorcerors. A quicker and dirtier method to creating one would be nice but they do work as magic-users in a S&S setting like Conan.

 

[Spectator]

Just as aside, common sense uber alles.
If you think scholars stink at low levels (they do) demand that you get a level boost of 2-3 levels over yuor contemporaries who are playing roided barbarians.

I just went to the Core 1ed rules and 1ed Skrolls of Skelos and the Hypnotism class is probably the best out there.

Remember in Conan 98% of your opponents will be humans. Hypnosis gets you very far expeccially with the 1 pp spell of hypnotic suggestion. If you have monsters and demons in every adventure, you might be trying to trnspose the DnD system on to the Conan system.

 

[LilithsThrall]

Looking over this, I still think the Sorcery rules could use an overhaul.
It might be interesting for us to make a collective effort here on these boards to do it.
That is, if other people are interested.
I see three big problems with Sorcery as is
1.) Low level sorcerers are too weak
2.) Its too difficult to create high level sorcerers from scratch
3.) The current sorcery system requires meticulous planning, from the beginning, of your character's progression all the way up to whatever your final level will be
Are there any other issues with sorcery?

I propose that the first problem is fixed by making alchemical items and herbs easier to access for sorcerers - particularly low level sorcerers (NOTE: they should be easier to access for sorcerers, -not- for anyone else).
I propose that the second and third problems be fixed by simplifying the system of prerequisites for different spells (instead of having different types of prereqs (skill level, class level, and other spells), the system be reduced to just one type - whatever that type is).

 

[Spectator]

I see three big problems with Sorcery as is
1.) Low level sorcerers are too weak
2.) Its too difficult to create high level sorcerers from scratch
3.) The current sorcery system requires meticulous planning, from the beginning, of your character's progression all the way up to whatever your final level will be
Are there any other issues with sorcery?

1. I agree with you. I propose that if you are the GM you should give your PC sorceror a leg up by giving him a few levels (start him at 3rd level) as opposed to starting him at first. This harkens back to the concept that your 1st level characters are often the 16 year blacksmith's apprentice who runs off with his fathers sword, the wizards apprentice also age 16 embarking on a journey, etc... You get the point. So if your character is 18-20 years old I would give him a few extra levels.

2. I agree, but it is not a particular problem because you want your sorcerors to be unique, not the cookie cutter 1ed ADD 12th level magic-user. Conan sorcerors have feats and skills which are pretty meaningful.

3. I agree, however this is a GM issue, again. For example, I allow my Nature magic caster to be able to conjure weather, per the summon elemental spell. I disregard the pre-reqs for Gelid Bones, and I eliminate some of the pre-reqs on numerous igh level spells. I enjoy a character being able to cast spells in the discipline he learned, without having to cross learn another style.

n General, I have been on this board for a fair while and I believe a lot of the posters on this board really aren't interested in doing something 'en masse' to change the sorcerors predicament.

I still think the Code of honor concept shortchanges the sorcerous types by giving brutish fighters and barbarians a +3 Will save, so if you want to balance out your game, ditch that concept. Or if you dig Code of Honors, come up with alternate for spell casters, eg: invoking your god gives a +3 MAgic attck bonus, just a thought.

 

[Krushnak]

I still think the Code of honor concept shortchanges the sorcerous types by giving brutish fighters and barbarians a +3 Will save, so if you want to balance out your game, ditch that concept. Or if you dig Code of Honors, come up with alternate for spell casters, eg: invoking your god gives a +3 magic attck bonus, just a thought.

there was a magic power attack feat in the skelos book that let you spend more pp to increase your MAB, if i recall this is now a standard sorceror feature in 2ed.

 

[LucaCherstich]

Hypnotism is versatile. Turn a baddie into a flunkie, and have the ability to 'whisper darkly' into their ear in a social setting? Not to be scoffed at.

I'm new to this system and none of my players decided to do a Scholar thus far. Nevertheless I'm quite interested in sorcery, especially Hypnotism which, to me, looks like the more "Conanesque" style.
I have a doubt regarding the use of hypnotism.
The Basic Spell (Entrance) has a casting time of "One full round" (Conan 2e: p. 250).
Elsewhere in the manual (Conan 2e: p.236) it is stated that a spell which requires a full round "comes into effect just before the beginning of the sorcerer's turn in the round after he begins casting the spell".
If I rightly interpret this rule Entranceis is effectively USELESS in combat.
Here a simple example of fight of 1 sorcerer (using entrance) vs 1 soldier:
Round 1:
Soldier (higher initiative): attacks
Scholar (lower initiative) cast Entrance, the soldier fails the Saving Throw BUT he will not suffer the effects of the "Entrance" before the scholar's turn in the following round.
Round 2:
Since Entrance does not come into effect yet the soldier (higher initiative) attacks the scholar and kills him.
When "Entrance" should come into effect the scholar is already dead! (...and the spell vanishes in any case...).
Is my interpretation right?
Furthermore if "Entrance" is useless the same is true also for Domination (Conan s2: p.251): it needs only 1 standard action BUT it can be cast ONLY on subjectes which are already entranced.
Am I wrong?
Please correct me!

 

[LilithsThrall]

That's one of many problems with Hypnotism. Another one is all the hit die limitations. The Sorcerer is able to affect another character of the same "power level" as the Sorcerer (at first level, he can affect characters with one hit die). The Sorcerer becomes a better, stronger, spell caster and, as he does, he continues to be able to affect characters of the same power level. Then, all of a sudden, the Sorcerer becomes -so- much more powerful that he can no longer affect characters of the same power level as he is (when he becomes a 13th level Sorcerer, he can't affect characters of 13 hit die). Not only that, but he can't upgrade to a more powerful spell which does the same thing. Instead, his power just dies off.
Instead of having these kind of absolute hit die limits, the spell should be relative to the caster. In other words, it should affect characters of the same hit die as the Sorcerer's level (or of one greater hit die than the Sorcerer's level). So, as the Sorcerer becomes a more powerful Sorcerer, his power grows with him - he can affect stronger and stronger targets - his power doesn't just inexplicably die off.
He doesn't even get Mass Hypnotic Suggestion until 10th level (at the earliest) and it doesn't affect characters of more than 8 hit die ever. It should affect characters no more than four hit die less than the Sorcerer (so at 14th level, he can affect 10th level characters with it).

 

[Spectator]

Lilith and Luca you make excellent points, I think I will houserule some changes for entrance when it comes to Hit Die effects.

As for Luca's comment about 'entrance' during the fight, it seems logical that you should not entrance some one during a fight. THink of a bar scene. I can entrance the chick while I'm talking to her, but its probably too late when she throws her drink at me and gets ready scratch my face and knee me in the balls, right?

If you have the 'ADEPT' feat 1st ed Conan (don't know about 2nd Ed) you can actually use entrance during a fight as a free action, because you are that damned good, but I think Adept is only available at 12th level, something you might want to Houserule to a lower level like 7th or 8th.

 

[Krushnak]

in 1st ed with entrance and the other hypnotism spells you had a hd limit of like 8 then you had to spend extra pp to affect people with a higher hd. not sure if this is how it is in 2nd ed but you might want to look for it.

 

[LilithsThrall]

in 1st ed with entrance and the other hypnotism spells you had a hd limit of like 8 then you had to spend extra pp to affect people with a higher hd. not sure if this is how it is in 2nd ed but you might want to look for it.

I have looked for it, but I haven't found it. It may be in there somewhere, but I don't know where.

 

[LilithsThrall]

The following is my first rough sketch (I wouldn't even dignify it to call it a 'draft' yet) of my rewrite of the Sorcerer class. I'm posting it here because the earlier I get feedback on where I'm heading with it, the better. I've got other ideas that aren't included below (such as the suggestions for "Hypnotism" above, I'll add them later).
"Thaumaturgy" refers to an enhancement towards craft alchemy, craft herbalism, craft weapon, etc. I don't have the details worked out yet.
"Boon" refers to a material world benefit gained from a Noble in the world trying to gain favor or something like that. "Greater Boon" refers to an extraplanar being trying to gain favor or something like that. Again, I don't have the details yet.

PP regen increases per level - the higher the level of the Sorcerer, the faster his PP regens
Channel Demon becomes a feat


Sorcerer can have three styles of magic (not including Counterspell and Summoning) - all styles are learned by 10th level
Between 1 and 10th, he's learning basic spells.
Between 7th and 14th, he's learning advanced spells
Between 12th and 20th, he's learning major spells - these are not generally combat applicable spells (basic and advanced are for that and can have more PP dumped into them in order to keep them useful throughout the rest of the character's life), these are grand ritual magics which can affect the world in major ways (such as temporarily realigning the planets in order to gain astrological benefits, powerful divinations, powerful transmogrifications (eg permanently turn a man into a demon), etc.)

1 Style 1, Scholar, Background, Base Power Points, Knowledge is Power, Counterspell
2 Style 1 Basic Spell, Iron Will
3 Style 2, Bonus Spell, Counterspell
4 Style 2 Basic Spell, Power Points +1
5 Style 3, Feat, Counterspell
6 Style 3 Basic Spell, Bonus Spell
7 Increased Max x3, Counterspell
8 Advanced Spell
9 Leadership, Thaumaturgy, Counterspell*
10 Advanced Spell, Increased Max x4
11 Feat, Advanced Spell
12 Master Words and Signs, Advanced Spell
13 Major Spell
14 Summon Entity
15 Boon, Major Spell
16
17 Major Spell
18 Greater Boon
19 Major Spell
20 Immortal

 

[Vortigern]

Well... I happen to like the scholar class as it is for a few reasons. First among them is how the class is flexible enough to represent a broad/generalized role without stereotyping or pigeonholing characters. i.e. a Priest of Mitra and a Sorcerer of the Black Ring are both made just as easily via that class. There is no artificial game mechanic dividing the two like we might see in some other games.

If you intend to attempt to overhaul the class I'd encourage you to attempt to preserve that flexibility.

Aside from that... I wouldn't really care for limiting a sorcerer to only three sorcery styles as a hard limit. It seems rather arbitrary and... sorcerers have enough limits on them already.

 

[LilithsThrall]

Well... I happen to like the scholar class as it is for a few reasons. First among them is how the class is flexible enough to represent a broad/generalized role without stereotyping or pigeonholing characters. i.e. a Priest of Mitra and a Sorcerer of the Black Ring are both made just as easily via that class. There is no artificial game mechanic dividing the two like we might see in some other games.

If you intend to attempt to overhaul the class I'd encourage you to attempt to preserve that flexibility.

Aside from that... I wouldn't really care for limiting a sorcerer to only three sorcery styles as a hard limit. It seems rather arbitrary and... sorcerers have enough limits on them already.

I'll admit that the reason I chose five (counterspelling and summoning are built into the class) was that it just feels right, but there is a reason why I chose to limit the number of styles much more than they currently are is to make a priest of mitra more distinct from a sorcerer of the black ring - fewer styles means that they'll have fewer styles in common.

 

[LilithsThrall]

I'm considering the following change to how Sorcery works. I'd like some feedback.
Every spell has a target number for effect. A 1d20 is rolled against that target number and the caster can add his class level to that roll. By every 5 points over that target number the roll is made, the character gets one "raise". If the character does not make the target number, he rolls again against that target number. If he fails the second time, he takes Con drain - with the difference between the caster's level and the target number of the spell determining how much Con drain.
There are no PPs. A character can cast all day long if he so desires (keeping in mind the possibility that he can always roll badly and get Con drain). Con drain heals at a rate of one point per day of rest. Also, even a low level character can attempt to cast powerful spells, but, depending on how powerful the spell is, the chances that he'll kill or maim himself (represented by the Con drain) instead of casting it successfully increase with the difficulty of the spell.
Every "raise" the character gets on casting the spell can be used to purchase metamagic feats to apply to the spell.
Things such as rituals, orgies, sacrifices, etc. which ordinarily would give PPs instead lower the target number for spells cast by the benefactor while the rituals, orgies, sacrifices, whatever are on-going.
The save vs. the spell is determined by how far over the target number the caster rolled - all things being equal, a spell which is more difficult to cast is easier to resist.

 

[Der Rote Baron]

Remember in Conan 98% of your opponents will be humans. Hypnosis gets you very far expeccially with the 1 pp spell of hypnotic suggestion. If you have monsters and demons in every adventure, you might be trying to trnspose the DnD system on to the Conan system.

Hypnotic Suggetsion can be such a killer if used wisely (and vily): An NPC-Sorceress used it on the Zamorian Pirate/Thief in my group and not only was she able to escape but the PC almost slaughtered the rest of the group and could have easily if the player had used the Feint Option more often/ at all - I let it pass because otherwise he fought to the fullest and being hypnotised certainly can hinder you to fight at your highest capability.

Playing a Sorceror means that you - as a player - have to think before you make a move. And sometimes, if a raged barbarian with a battleaxe is running towards you that means - RUN, FORREST! RUN!

 

[arderkrag]

Dude, this is going to be the first of many response with the theme of "Patience Grasshopper" and "this ain't D-n-D."

Sorcerors blow at lower levels and really don't come into full usefulness until about 12th level.

I disagree. Burst barrier is very effective in combat.

And as for the "problems" with sorcerers, I think they work fine as they are, and aren't difficult to play or dm effectively.

 

[Xex]

I only have the first edition as of yet, but from what I recall Sorceror's started dominating at 6th level, when they could summon demons.

Even one demon at that level is stronger than the entire party, due to the effective immunity to mundane weapons, etc.

Also, the defensive blast ability of sorcerors was insane in the 1st edition; they could rip apart anyone at lower levels. Not sure how much this changed though...but it can't be all that much.

 

[Ichabod]

This thread caused me to look up some of the descriptions of defensive blast in 2E (we are still using mostly 1E for an ongoing campaign, so it hasn't been a priority getting up to speed on the changes).

It is significantly different. You have to be attacked - no rushing into a horde of softies and incinerating their world. Of course, the combo with Opportunistic Sacrifice was addressed as the nova loop was silly.

But, even putting aside that it is now a *defensive* blast, the only one that does similar damage that I read was the necromancy blast. Weapon Curse would be incredibly nasty against PCs like ours where Conan Jr. who kills everything would do himself in where he would likely survive through a flame strike. The nature one seems lame unless running away is constructive. The summoning one just seems brutal as having a demon fight for you for a while is going to matter a lot more than a one shot fireball.

Even if there's no reliable fireball, I'm still not clear on why people think the scholar is underpowered. Yes, they don't fight as well as other classes; one should hope not, right? But, just like D&D, spellcasters can do things that nonspellcasters can never, e-e-e-ver, do. I've been more concerned with the possible brokenness of scholars rather than any thought of inferiority.

 

[LilithsThrall]

"spellcasters can do things that nonspellcasters can never, e-e-e-ver, do"

The fact that spellcasters can do things that nonspellcasters can never, e-e-e-ver do is only as significant as how significant those things are. To put it another way, the fact that noone can ever raise corn as well as a commoner is only significant if raising corn is significant.
As I see it, there are a couple of issues going on here.
1.) Sorcerers are too weak most of the time
2.) In those few things where Sorcerers aren't weak, they are too powerful and potentially a tpk
3.) Many people here are speaking from a first edition rules basis, but many of the rules they are talking about have changed from first to second edition (for example, the nova loop of defensive blasts no longer exists) (this one took me awhile to catch - people mentioned how powerful the defensive blast was and I was going crazy trying to see how that could possibly be - its because the rules changed across editions)

The class's power really needs to be smoothed out over levels and across styles a lot more than it currently is. The fact that a first level Sorcerer can cast "Master, Aid Me!" and wipe out an entire party of 7th level characters is ridiculous. Likewise, the fact that a first level Sorcerer who specializes in necromancy is going to find himself with nothing to contribute most of the time is ridiculous.
Frankly, the class can be designed better.

 

[VincentDarlage]

Frankly, the class can be designed better.

I am wondering how you can do that and still keep it true to REH's writing. To me, the greatest thing about the scholar class is that most (or all) the 1E spells and abilities (other than Defensive Blast) appeared in the original Conan stories - and in my games the scholar has been a perfectly playable class.

I think the class and its design is on the genius level. The only real flaw was Defensive Blast, and the 2E author fixed that admirably.