Some issues with Cults of Glorantha Volume 1

[simonh]

Maybe - How many churches do you have in your town? (Anglican, Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, United Reform etc etc)

That's not an analogous situation. Those are cases of schism, whereas most aspects of deities are compatible with each other. The example I'd use would be the different orders within the Catholic church. They emphasize different things but are compatible at a theological level. For example within Orlanthi society the rulers worship Orlanth Rex while farmers will worship Barntar and each respecvt and accept each other's roles. An exception would be the Carmanian and Theyalan cults of Humakt, which are more like the cases of different christian churches which are not compatible with each other.

 

[Utgardloki]

Maybe - How many churches do you have in your town? (Anglican, Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, United Reform etc etc)

This kind of thing has always caused a problem for me, when trying to adapt judeochristian metaphysics into role playing games.

The only thing I can figure is that the god sometimes known as Jehovah does not really care if his followers kill each other, as long as they take over the world. Thus, my theory is that he gave Mohammed the Koran so that Mohammed could shore up the eastern flank of his "empire", which was in danger of collapse in the 7th Century. Perhaps a deity who is into warfare may have a similar situation.

As for the issue of Catholics vs Lutherans vs Methodists vs Baptists, this may be analogous to my homebrew's campaign in which the goddess Frigga was worshipped differently among different groups. The Dormacs in the south worshipped her as a goddess of matrimony and marital fidelity. The Dora-Tachuk to the north worshipped her as a goddess of fertility, and actually recognized a sacred prostitute profession. A major difference in emphasis and attitude, and one that may or may not cause problems where the two groups meet and interact.

 

[elgrin]

After just a quick flick through, I have not had time to assess all the possibilities, but I am in agreement with various contributors about some things. These are not criticisms, as the overall standard is among the best I have seen for some time!

1) An Index for this volume really is desirable for the next printing/edition.
2) A Pantheon listing would be highly appreciated both by GM's and players; as there is a need to flick back and forth to get the associations for each Cult, which detracts from the flow of the individual Cults.

This looks highly promising.

Just my opinions... and I was asked.

 

[Voriof]

Trifletraxor have you used the cult book in anger yet, i.e. char-gen and play.
How well are the cults balanced, is everyone going to gravitate to Humakt or Yemalio? or does the new set up take the teeth out of some of the gods?

I can't make as many comments as I would like until my copy of the book arrives. Currently, I only have the ms.

Yelmalio fun? That's something I'd never heard him accused of. I always found him, well, bland and boring.

With a few exceptions, I set out to try and make sure most of the cults were fun, useful, or - occasionally - downright evil. There's a fair number of non-adventuring cults as well. Barntar and Bisos and a few others... I was always very aware in RQ that 80% of the population worshipped gods that were not actually written up - the vast majority of the cults were for the 20% of the population that did the wierd, exceptional, or powerful stuff (read PCs).

However, each pantheon should have at least one or two cults which are very suited to adventurer play. A few favorites: Sankendavu, a son of Yelm, is a less restrictive version of Yelmalio, frex. They, however, do not receive geases or gifts instead. Shargash, for all that "DARA HAPPAN SMASH" feeling. Finally, the Solars get a violent, bloodthirsty cult that does not require the loss of generative organs...

Heler and Yinkin, finally get full cult writeups. They've been mainstays in HeroQuest for years. Some cults, such as Ralia (a grain goddess), Khorle (a city god), Odayla (a hunting god) and Oslira (a river goddess), are samples of common variety of gods and serve as examples for many other, similar gods.

As an aside, I would note that a few cults, such as Issaries, are somewhat more powerful than they were in the 3rd Age as they were actually cultivated and enhanced by both the EWF and the God Learners as useful vehicles for political and economic ambition.

The greatest difficulty I had was fitting some cults into the chosen format. Some, like Caladra and Aurelion, are just overly complex for the size of the cult. Others, such as Orlanth and Yelm, were incredibly wide-reaching cults which extensively permeate their societies. In this latter case, I went with using several sub-cults/aspects as seen in HeroQuest.

I've been allowed to stand on the shoulders of far greater writers. Hopefully, people will find the Cults book of use.

Voriof/Jeff Kyer

 

[Voriof]

That's not an analogous situation. Those are cases of schism, whereas most aspects of deities are compatible with each other. The example I'd use would be the different orders within the Catholic church. They emphasize different things but are compatible at a theological level. For example within Orlanthi society the rulers worship Orlanth Rex while farmers will worship Barntar and each respecvt and accept each other's roles. An exception would be the Carmanian and Theyalan cults of Humakt, which are more like the cases of different christian churches which are not compatible with each other.

Well said, Simon. The example I prefer - and used as my mental touchstone when wriing - was the Greek City states or Pharonic Egypt. Each city had its favored god or goddess but those gods who were part of the culture were accepable companions and part of the pantheon. Foreign gods were less acceptable but some might be adopted if they proved compatible or necessary. Dionysius, for example, was adopted from the East.

Unacceptable or competing foreign deities would be treated as enemies, of course, thus giving mythic reasons for their worshippers emnity. Orlanth and Yelm, for example, cannot coexist in a society.
Except, in Glorantha, it is the other way around... with the mythic dictating the mortal behavior, not justifying it.

One point is that some of the aspects represent Orlanth in different stages of his myths. He was not all of these things, at every stage of his myth cycle, so why expect a human to be able to do it all at once? Having said that though, perhaps there should be some mechanism to transfer from one aspect to another. This would be particularly appropriate to some of the earth goddesses, where a woman would naturally transfer through the Maiden->Mother->Crone aspects during her life.

I definitely agree that something like this would have to wait for a long-desc version of these cults. Cults of Glorantha is definitely a short-hand version of a great number of deities. Such long, loving descriptions would be perfect for scenario or regional book. Cults of Glorantha is definitely an overview of many books.

As to the many subcults/aspects, I view it as one spends more time devoted (as it were) to one's god. This takes more time and effort than a more simple worship might entail. Where the greatest of gods are concerned, you cannot have it all for the low, low price of 10% of your time and effort.

I had considered a method of allowing multiple initiation into a cult with several aspects but it was clunky, wordy, and very vulnerable to being powergamed. So I kept Yelm as being a progressive cult and made Orlanth and Ernalda several mutually acceptable/overlapping subcults. Deities like Oria and Lodril would be equally complex as Orlanth/Ernalda but again, these would benefit from a loving, detailed long-desc writeup.

Having to pay the same price for joining two aspects of any God seems, well, wrong and hard on players.

Some gods are very, very big. These may be mistaken for several gods or require different practices to access those varying aspects of the same god. Or simply put, different aspects of that god appear to different worshippers. Orlanth the Adventurer appeals to the young warrior. The magican and farmer praise him for his Thunder and Rain. The chief worships him for the justice and law he dispenses. Foes of the EWF emulate Orlanth's Dragonslaying skills (Okay, that overlaps with Adventurous - but its more of a specialization). Remember also that many of the spells are overlaping and there is a considerable group of shared/exchanged rune and divine spells based on the association of cults.

Hope this helps!

Jeff

 

[StephenT]

Having to pay the same price for joining two aspects of any God seems, well, wrong and hard on players.

One thing to bear in mind is that it won't always be obvious to PCs that two aspects of a god actually are the same entity. They might think of one aspect as being the son or brother of the other - or even a completely different god.

That's what the God Learners are notorious for, after all. Let's say they discover that your tribe worships Desemborth the Thief, while your neighbours worship Orlanth Adventurous - and the two cults offer very similar powers. So the God Learners get all excited, and steal your myths, and invade your heroquests, and eventually "prove" that Desemborth and Orlanth Adventurous are the same god - in other words, that Desemborth is just an aspect of Orlanth.

But are you really going to believe a bunch of evil, meddling, soulless God Learners?

 

[Rurik]

Yelmalio fun? That's something I'd never heard him accused of. I always found him, well, bland and boring.

Take that back right now.

:evil:

 

[Voriof]

Yelmalio fun? That's something I'd never heard him accused of. I always found him, well, bland and boring.

Take that back right now.

:evil:

Bring it on, geasboy! Yelmalio, as worshipped by the Sun Dome Templars, reminded me way too much of kubbitzniks. Just not my cuppa. Too restricted and insular for my liking. I will admit, though, that it takes all kinds.

Voriof

 

[Rurik]

Bring it on, geasboy! Yelmalio, as worshipped by the Sun Dome Templars, reminded me way too much of kubbitzniks. Just not my cuppa. Too restricted and insular for my liking. I will admit, though, that it takes all kinds.

Voriof

It is well established what evils your Storm King unleashed by his wild ways. A little structure and respect for the rightful order would have done him and the world all some good!

 

[homerjsinnott]

All this IMHO, but it will depend on the situation. In many cases, they will use the same temple, but perhaps with a separate shrine within it. Dedicated temples to the specialist aspects will exist though, for example some aspects are especially popular in certain tribes or clans.

I agree totally and would add that these shires would be open to all worshippers, why wouldn't a worshipper of Orlanth the Warrior pray to/ worship Orlanth Rex, if he felt that he had been wronged by someone (say the Rex priest, so there could be no interventor on his part)?
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I disagree; I think to get the benefits of an aspect you need to pay the price. Being a member of a specialist cult as well or instead of a main aspect is unusual and generally restricted to the fervently religious, or even fanatical.

I'm not sure what you disagree with here and I think you may have misunderstood me. So I will separate my two points out to be clearer.

Surely what you would have is a core set of spells/values that all worshippers would get and then aspected spells/values of the orlanth you are dedicated to?

I feel that everyone would be aspected to a version of a God (assuming they are popular enough to have more than one). So what would happen if you were a member of Orlanth the man and then moved to Orlanth Rex, You would have to (re?) dedicate yourself, sure, but would you still pay the previous tithe? And an extra point of POW? (I'm talking about RQ 2+3 here, as I don't play MRQ). The person has already formed a close bond with the god do they really need another one (and does this mean you can call upon your god twice for DI (if so I'm up for it! )?

No one would be restricted to praying or asking for help from a certain aspect of a deity, "Sorry, no you can't pray to Orlanth Cloudgiver, you are in Orlanth Rex for God's sake!"

If I go into a temple of Apollo for instance, am I going to be refused entrance to different shrines? I was never suggesting that you should be able to collect Hero /subcult membership like stamps, But I'm not sure of the 10% and a point of POW, nor of them being treated like completely separate deities which is what it implies.

You talked about specialist aspects and the fervently religious, how does this apply to Orlanth Rex? He seems to be a specialist aspect, or is he one of the prime ones? (forgive me I haven't been able to get a copy yet, for all my blathering!). Voriof talks as if he was very minor, yet it is said elsewhere that he is integral to the Orlanthi way of life and has (thinly) widespread worship.
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Some aspects might be mutually exclusive Lawgiver and thief for instance but they are aspects of the same deity and could be used by the same person (Orlanth did, why can't one of his worshippers?).

Because he's one of the Great Gods, a fundamental lynch pin of nature, and you're just a miserable little mortal.

That's exactly why it would be possible for a mortal to do it, Orlanth is bound by the Great Compromise into these roles, while you are not, you are just bound by social convention, which while strong, is not nearly as inflexible. So it is possible for you to take on these roles, just difficult.
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One point is that some of the aspects represent Orlanth in different stages of his myths. He was not all of these things, at every stage of his myth cycle, so why expect a human to be able to do it all at once? Having said that though, perhaps there should be some mechanism to transfer from one aspect to another.

Is this before or after Time? (and can I still get a drink? and if it is lunchtime it's just an illusion anyway!) :wink: . Seriously, my point is that he was all of these things, all of the time. We have just conveniently put them in an order. For example, while he was being Orlanth Lightbringer wasn't he being Rex and Orlanth the Man as well?
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This jars with me a lot, these aren't different gods they are aspects of the same god, would they have separate temples in the same town?

Wrote about conflict in the Christian church.

I understand and agree with you point about politics, but I feel there is a major difference here.
The different Judeo-Christian religions/ denominations deal with all aspects of their worshippers lives, and are therefore effectively in competition with each other (except Judaism which doesn't try to gain new converts). With Orlanth (and some other deities in a pantheistic world) these different aspects deal with different things in life, Orlanth Rex has no interest in actually making rain (although they have an interest in seeing that it does rain and that is where the politics might come in), and Rex would have no interest in having all Orlanth as members (we can't all lead!).

The example I'd use would be the different orders within the Catholic Church. They emphasize different things but are compatible at a theological level. An exception would be the Carmanian and Theyalan cults of Humakt, which are more like the cases of different Christian churches which are not compatible with each other.

I agree, and I like your analogy about the Catholic Church.
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Having to pay the same price for joining two aspects of any God seems, well, wrong and hard on players.

Some gods are very, very big. These may be mistaken for several gods or require different practices to access those varying aspects of the same god.

I agree this is possible, even likely when dealing with a large/difficult physical area but unlikely within a specific cultural area. The Godplane is visited, well, by every initiate and it's unlikely that this situation would arise;


Initiate visiting Orlanth Rex's Stead: "Didn't I see you the day before Windsday?"

Orlanth Rex: "Uhhh, no."

Initiate: "He looked just like you... without the crown."

Orlanth Rex: "Must be someone else."

Initiate: "It was Orlanth Lightbringer's Holy day and the God I spoke to had a scar just like yours, spoke like you and wore the same vest!"

Orlanth: "Oo, is that Jinna Jar? I haven't seen her in ages, excuse me."
[Almost runs away]

Initiate: [shrugs] "Must have been his twin brother."
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Remember also that many of the spells are overlapping and there is a considerable group of shared/exchanged rune and divine spells based on the association of cults.

That they are separate cults implies that they would be worshipped alone, and while I can see that Orlanth Rex could be worshipped on it's own, with another deity being worshipped by the majority of the (male) population, it seems very, very unlikely.

 

[elgrin]

Trifletraxor have you used the cult book in anger yet, i.e. char-gen and play.
How well are the cults balanced, is everyone going to gravitate to Humakt or Yemalio? or does the new set up take the teeth out of some of the gods?

Haven't used the book yet, as I'm still working to houserule the core system. Just playing RQ3 and Cthulhu in the meantime. I'm on holiday for a week now, without the Cults book, so I can't give good answer there. From what I remember, the warrior cults will probably still be preferred by most players as they have the best spell-access. Not that much change.

elgrin what's your opinion?

SGL.

Trifletaxor; I've now had a more detailed look and, yes I think we will have a preponderance of warrior cults in play. However I don't think that actually differs from my viewpoint of the background. While some intellectuals (Lankor Mhy for example - didn't this used to have an h in the first name? or is my memory failing) will go off in search of knowledge and the power it will bring, in the main the most 'adventurous' individuals would tend to be of a martial bent in the worlds we play in. If they were not, then the survival rate would plummet. So the warrior and similar cults will be in the majority, but I am OK with that. I've already accepted that one of the players in my campaign will be a Vinga follower, and do not feel that the group will suffer if most (indeed all) were of martial leanings. They will find however, that the ignorance coming from a lack of other disciplines will make their tasks much harder to accomplish, or much more expensive to fund. So having the wide range of cults and viewpoints available will allow players to explore a balanced approach to quests.

 

[Voriof]

(Lankor Mhy for example - didn't this used to have an h in the first name? or is my memory failing)

Your memory is correct. Though I have seen both spellings over the years.

For some reason, my spell checker thought that that "Lankor" was the correct one. However, I am quite willing to assume there are many variant spellings and pronunciations of the various deties as one explores the vast extent of the Glorious and Eternal Middle Sea Empire.

Voriof

P.S. Oops.

 

[StephenT]

So what would happen if you were a member of Orlanth the man and then moved to Orlanth Rex, You would have to (re?) dedicate yourself, sure, but would you still pay the previous tithe? And an extra point of POW?

I can certainly see that being justified. Donating a point of POW is a game mechanic, but it presumably represents attuning your soul to a god so you can channel his powers into the world. With minor gods, that one point of POW is enough to channel all of his power, and so give you access to all his magic. For a Great God like Orlanth, it's not enough. Each Aspect of a major god represents about as much power as a single mortal can channel with a single point of POW...

I'd be more willing to see tithes as a social construct rather than an essential part of the religion, so there's more scope for flexibility. Even so, if you want to join both the temples of Orlanth Rex and Orlanth Allfather, that's two sets of priests who'll expect donations. And two sets of holy days you'll have to attend, and provide sacrifices for.

You talked about specialist aspects and the fervently religious, how does this apply to Orlanth Rex? He seems to be a specialist aspect, or is he one of the prime ones?

I can't answer for MRQ, but in HeroQuest Orlanth's prime aspects are Adventurous (god of warriors, adventurers, wanderers, etc), Allfather (the primary god of non-adventuring Orlanthi men, responsible for craftsmanship, farming, law, ruling, and being a good husband) and Thunderous (the elemental god of storm, air and thunder). Orlanth Rex is a small and specialised subcult within the wider Orlanth Allfather aspect, only worshipped by kings. (Ernalda Orendara is the female equivalent, for queens).

That's exactly why it would be possible for a mortal to do it, Orlanth is bound by the Great Compromise into these roles, while you are not, you are just bound by social convention, which while strong, is not nearly as inflexible. So it is possible for you to take on these roles, just difficult.

The difference the Great Compromise makes is that it's possible for a mortal to change, to leave one cult and join another, unlike the gods who are fixed in their roles. It's completely different to expect a mortal to wield all the different powers of a Great God simultaneously... to do that, he would have to become godlike in power himself. (Which certainly isn't impossible in Glorantha, though).

I agree this is possible, even likely when dealing with a large/difficult physical area but unlikely within a specific cultural area. The Godplane is visited, well, by every initiate and it's unlikely that this situation would arise;

The very fact of the gods being fixed in their roles by the Great Compromise means that the type of scenario you describe can't happen. If you visit Orlanth Rex's stead, he'll be dressed in the way prescribed by myth, he'll act the same way each time you visit, and if you get close enough to engage him in conversation, he'll say pretty much the same thing every time. Visit Orlanth Thunderous's stead and the same will apply - he probably won't look or act anything like he does when he's being Orlanth Rex. (He'll probably look like a big stormcloud rather than an idealised version of a human king, for a start). And he won't be able to tell you any differently, either. You might see similarities between the two aspects of Orlanth... but you'd also see similarities between Orlanth Thunderous and Durburdan, the Pelorian storm god.

It's only meddlers like Arkat or the God Learners who can prove, by experimentation or use of RuneQuest Sight, whether two gods are actually the same or not.

 

[Durand Durand]

It's only meddlers like Arkat or the God Learners who can prove, by experimentation or use of RuneQuest Sight, whether two gods are actually the same or not.

I can just see Orlanth now...
"I would have gotten away with it too if it wasn't for you pesky hero-questers!"

DD

 

[burdock]

drink rotgut





forget about t


(it)

 

[Voriof]

You talked about specialist aspects and the fervently religious, how does this apply to Orlanth Rex? He seems to be a specialist aspect, or is he one of the prime ones?

Excepting, of course, that the Orlanth Rex cult has not yet been founded by Alakoring, who is a very naughty six year old at the moment.

Voriof

 

[homerjsinnott]

You talked about specialist aspects and the fervently religious, how does this apply to Orlanth Rex? He seems to be a specialist aspect, or is he one of the prime ones?

Excepting, of course, that the Orlanth Rex cult has not yet been founded by Alakoring, who is a very naughty six year old at the moment.

Voriof

Is it not the same as Orlanth the Leader? which you mentioned earlier in this very thread (do you mean coughdragonbreakercough)?

 

[Voriof]

Excepting, of course, that the Orlanth Rex cult has not yet been founded by Alakoring, who is a very naughty six year old at the moment.

Voriof

Is it not the same as Orlanth the Leader? which you mentioned earlier in this very thread (do you mean coughdragonbreakercough)?

Orlanth the Leader is an older version of the cult, primarily built around chieftainship. When Alakoring breaks the EWF, one of his innovations are magics that support and uphold kingship - and allow the suppression of the upstart and independently minded Thunder Priests (who worked together to help create the EWF in the first place).

The rites of Orlanth the Leader are only for those who rule or help those who rule - tribal kings, chieftains, and clan rings. They particpate in the Orlanth rites (if they are Orlanthi - some might be Issaries or Lankor Mhy or Barntar, etc) as well.

As an aside, I would say that much of the underlying thoughts about how Gloranthan religion works, especially with the Orlanth cult, can be found in "Thunder Rebels." I drew heavily from these models as they reflect the 'actual' (!) Gloranthan situations.

However, I think we are going to have to agree to disagree.

Voriof

 

[homerjsinnott]

Is it not the same as Orlanth the Leader? which you mentioned earlier in this very thread (do you mean coughdragonbreakercough)?

Orlanth the Leader is an older version of the cult, primarily built around chieftainship. When Alakoring breaks the EWF, one of his innovations are magics that support and uphold kingship - and allow the suppression of the upstart and independently minded Thunder Priests (who worked together to help create the EWF in the first place).

The rites of Orlanth the Leader are only for those who rule or help those who rule - tribal kings, chieftains, and clan rings. They particpate in the Orlanth rites (if they are Orlanthi - some might be Issaries or Lankor Mhy or Barntar, etc) as well.

As an aside, I would say that much of the underlying thoughts about how Gloranthan religion works, especially with the Orlanth cult, can be found in "Thunder Rebels." I drew heavily from these models as they reflect the 'actual' (!) Gloranthan situations.

However, I think we are going to have to agree to disagree.

Voriof

No, I really was asking cause I didn't know (I only thought they were I didn't know. What are we disagreeing about? Unfortunately someon has borrowed :roll: my copy of TR and I'm waiting to get it back.

Thanks for the info anyway, Ade.

 

[soltakss]

Now my wife is back from her holidays, I can't buy all the RQ books I want, so Cults of Glorantha will have to wait until next month.

But, on the subject of different Aspects of a god, is there a difference between cults such as Orlanth Adventurous/Orlanth Thunderous/Orlanth Lightbringer/Orlanth the Dragon/Orlanth Dragonbreaker and Varanorlanth/Desemborth? The first set are different flavours of a main god, the second set are different cults (in HeroQuest anyway) that worship Orlanth in different guises.

If we had Orlanth the Wild and Orlanth the Thief rather than Varanorlanth and Desemborth, would that make sense? How would they relate to the other Aspects of Orlanth?