ninthcouncil
Mongoose
Some unfortunate experiences with the Royal Mail a couple of years back suggest that we might as well throw the tea-bag in the North Sea.Exubae said:Better still we could all send him a tea-bag through the post
Some issues with Cults of Glorantha Volume 1
- Thread starter Trifletraxor
- Start date
ninthcouncil said:Some unfortunate experiences with the Royal Mail a couple of years back suggest that we might as well throw the tea-bag in the North Sea.Exubae said:Better still we could all send him a tea-bag through the post
I have no wish to participate in any tea-bagging.
Voriof - who looks things up :shock:
Very well then, I propose a Scale of punishments/rewards based on how good or bad MoG is.
As I really don't know how DBC feels about tea-bagging, and therefore can't tell if ist should be used a punishment or reward, I'll leave it off the list.
As I really don't know how DBC feels about tea-bagging, and therefore can't tell if ist should be used a punishment or reward, I'll leave it off the list.
Code:
Sucks Really Bad Slow Death by Torture
Just Sucks Relatively Quick Lynching
Kinda Sucks DBC Eats His Stormtrooper Mug
Just OK Tell Him "Nice Job" And Then Give Him Cold
Shoulder. Wait For Uz and Judge Again.
Good Tea and Fruitcake
Rocks Beer. Everyone Buys Him A Pint.
Best Book Ever Form Cult of Dead Blue Clown and All Join.
Worship Him and Do His Bidding. Make Sacrifices.ninthcouncil
Mongoose
Somehow this tangent has reminded me of the regrettable absence of Erotocomatose Lucidity in CoG1.... :wink:
ninthcouncil said:
Yes, or "Second Mouth." Sadly, these spells did not survive editing. But I can understand Mongoose being less willing to be risque than Avalon Hill was back in the day.
Ken Rolston's a dirty old man. For proof, just out his stuff in the Elder Scrolls computer games! :shock: Jeff
Voriof said:Rurik said:
Oh well. I'll just get back to clubbing harp seals then.
Jeff
You never negotiated a rating scale before your first book came out, and besides, you are an established Gloranthan writer, so there was never that same unknown factor.
But I suppose we could apply the same scale to you for your next release. I'm not sure if it is entirely fair to DBC to make you eat his Stormtrooper Mug if Cults 2 kinda sucks, but then I don't really expect that to be the result either, so it is probably OK.
Bryan Steele still has to bribe the appropriate old whiny bitches on this board before we include him in our Gloranthan writer shenanigans. :wink:
Rurik said:
Ah! I am dense this morning. I suppose I could eat my Renvald Meldekbane mug but that would probably make me cry. A lot.
But hey, if DBC makes the grade, I'll make sure they set him up with the ritualized sex with a mistress troll. Or pay for the multiple regrow limb spells afterwards.
Jeff
Dead Blue Clown
Mongoose
Rurik said:
That was so cool that it put me in a great mood all day.
Also, technically, it's a Clone Trooper mug. I mean, sure, they become Stormtroopers over the course of Revenge of the Sith, but for the sake of honesty, it's a Clone Trooper mug. It is still, as I mentioned, my favourite. I promised photos of me eating it. I'm good for it, y'know. I'm a man of my word.
I'll be in York for 4 days around the time Magic comes out, going uni-scouting with my girlfriend*. I'm going to spend the whole time wondering if I'll be returning home to the forum only to find I need to be snacking on my very bestest tea mug.
*If Burdock is reading this, I mean... I don't have a girlfriend and I desperately need your advice on how to get one.
I have a Tatooine Cantina Pilsner Glass.
I kinda have two, but my wife put the first one through the dishwasher (even though I told her not to - dang women) so many times the label almost completely wore off.
Since then I have gotten her some plain pilsner glasses (she really liked the Tatooine one) and replaced it with a new one that NEVER goes through the dishwasher. It has however become my son's favorite glass.
Not that this really applies to anything on hand - but hey, how often do you get a chance to bring up your Star Wars drinking vessels.
I kinda have two, but my wife put the first one through the dishwasher (even though I told her not to - dang women) so many times the label almost completely wore off.
Since then I have gotten her some plain pilsner glasses (she really liked the Tatooine one) and replaced it with a new one that NEVER goes through the dishwasher. It has however become my son's favorite glass.
Not that this really applies to anything on hand - but hey, how often do you get a chance to bring up your Star Wars drinking vessels.
I have been reading the excellent Cults of Glorantha vol 1, and have enjoyed it immensely. I am sure it will see a lot of use once I get my game off the ground.
Still, I am an old Glorantha grognard, and Carmania is my specialty - to the extent that I have one. So... I present here some quibbles for consideration in the forthcoming errata, or just for informational purposes otherwise. Read on if you dare!
LIGHT AND DARK:
The Carmanian Church article (page 5) describes the Carmanian religion as having a dualism that sees Light as good and Darkness as evil. The religion probably did start out that way, but by the time of Glorantha: Second Age (908 ST) things have changed. Carmania endured a period of alternating Light and Dark Shahs [Fortunate Succession page 98], and I am pretty sure the Dark Shah faction didn't believe they were servants of Ganesatarus. It seems reasonable to me that during this time the Carmanian religion moved from an elemental Light-Dark dualism to the modern moral/ethical dualism. Idovanus became the source of cosmic order – the Good God. Ganesatarus is the corrupter – Father of Deceit. Light and Dark are mere elemental forces that can be used by either side of the great struggle.
Shah Saman the Lion (880 – 900 ST) was the “dualist religious reformer” [FS 98] who healed his divided nation. I believe that he did this by promoting the creed of Balance – every Carmanian should embrace both Light and Dark qualities within himself. Thus, “they love truth and hate lies” but do not “cherish the light and shun the dark” except in the metaphorical sense of wisdom versus ignorance. This is the modern (Third Age) Carmanian ideology, and I think it makes sense for it to be the religious reform of Saman the Lion.
PEOPLE AND PLACES:
The Carmanian Church article (page 5) says that “...the Carmanians have built a powerful empire on the shores of the Sweet Sea and the Bull Shah contests against the lies of the Golden Dragon Emperor and the God Learner heretics.” The location is wrong – the Sweet Sea Alliance ruled the shores of the Sweet Sea throughout the Second Age [FS 41]. The author probably meant Lake Oronin. Also, the Bull Shahs don't come to power until 1139 ST. This should probably read “Lion Shah” instead.
Other Hunting Gods (page 44) doesn't make it clear that Pelanda is a region within the Kingdom of Carmania. In a real sense, there is no such place as Pelanda any more – there is only Carmania. The Oronin Valley region has had many names. Once it was called Wendaria, then Oroninela during the flood, then Pelanda after it was liberated by Daxdarius et al, and most recently Carmania after the Prophet Carmanos. Personally, I would avoid the use of the word Pelanda entirely in Second Age publications. I would use Carmania, or Old Carmania instead.
CARMANIAN PANTHEON:
Just as Hu'makt, Gorgorma, and Uleria have Carmanian forms, there are other deities that are part of the Carmanian pantheon but are not listed as such in Cults of Glorantha 1. Forms of Dendara and Lodril (as Turos) are both worshiped in Carmania. The Carmanian Dendara is fused with Entekos, Goddess of Good Air. The Carmanian Lodril (Turos) serves Idovanus rather than Yelm, and is not Idovanus' brother, but is otherwise virtually identical to the Dara Happan cult. This is natural, since the Dara Happans borrowed heavily from Pelanda when reconstructing their religion in the First Age.
The name of the Carmanian version of Humakt (Hu'makt) has its apostrophe in the wrong place on page 21 in the Carmanos Law-Bringer Associated Cults section.
SORCERY:
Carmanos Law-Bringer cult (page 20) says that Carmanians don't practice sorcery. Eventually Carmanians find a relatively safe way to practice sorcery under the auspices of the cult of Malakinus, Lord of Good Sorcery. It is possible that Carmanians haven't discovered Malakinus by the time of Glorantha: Second Age. Maybe they discover him during Shah Nadar the Avenger's military adventures in Fronela (919 – 929 ST). Defeating the EWF would have been easier with sorcery, though, and playing Carmanians without sorcery doesn't seem as much fun! I would much rather say that Malakinus was discovered during the reign of Shah Carmandar the White (865 – 872 ST) or Saman the Lion. YGWV.
Despite all of this, what is in the book is quite playable (excepting already mentioned issues) and interesting. I can't wait to see more!
Still, I am an old Glorantha grognard, and Carmania is my specialty - to the extent that I have one. So... I present here some quibbles for consideration in the forthcoming errata, or just for informational purposes otherwise. Read on if you dare!
LIGHT AND DARK:
The Carmanian Church article (page 5) describes the Carmanian religion as having a dualism that sees Light as good and Darkness as evil. The religion probably did start out that way, but by the time of Glorantha: Second Age (908 ST) things have changed. Carmania endured a period of alternating Light and Dark Shahs [Fortunate Succession page 98], and I am pretty sure the Dark Shah faction didn't believe they were servants of Ganesatarus. It seems reasonable to me that during this time the Carmanian religion moved from an elemental Light-Dark dualism to the modern moral/ethical dualism. Idovanus became the source of cosmic order – the Good God. Ganesatarus is the corrupter – Father of Deceit. Light and Dark are mere elemental forces that can be used by either side of the great struggle.
Shah Saman the Lion (880 – 900 ST) was the “dualist religious reformer” [FS 98] who healed his divided nation. I believe that he did this by promoting the creed of Balance – every Carmanian should embrace both Light and Dark qualities within himself. Thus, “they love truth and hate lies” but do not “cherish the light and shun the dark” except in the metaphorical sense of wisdom versus ignorance. This is the modern (Third Age) Carmanian ideology, and I think it makes sense for it to be the religious reform of Saman the Lion.
PEOPLE AND PLACES:
The Carmanian Church article (page 5) says that “...the Carmanians have built a powerful empire on the shores of the Sweet Sea and the Bull Shah contests against the lies of the Golden Dragon Emperor and the God Learner heretics.” The location is wrong – the Sweet Sea Alliance ruled the shores of the Sweet Sea throughout the Second Age [FS 41]. The author probably meant Lake Oronin. Also, the Bull Shahs don't come to power until 1139 ST. This should probably read “Lion Shah” instead.
Other Hunting Gods (page 44) doesn't make it clear that Pelanda is a region within the Kingdom of Carmania. In a real sense, there is no such place as Pelanda any more – there is only Carmania. The Oronin Valley region has had many names. Once it was called Wendaria, then Oroninela during the flood, then Pelanda after it was liberated by Daxdarius et al, and most recently Carmania after the Prophet Carmanos. Personally, I would avoid the use of the word Pelanda entirely in Second Age publications. I would use Carmania, or Old Carmania instead.
CARMANIAN PANTHEON:
Just as Hu'makt, Gorgorma, and Uleria have Carmanian forms, there are other deities that are part of the Carmanian pantheon but are not listed as such in Cults of Glorantha 1. Forms of Dendara and Lodril (as Turos) are both worshiped in Carmania. The Carmanian Dendara is fused with Entekos, Goddess of Good Air. The Carmanian Lodril (Turos) serves Idovanus rather than Yelm, and is not Idovanus' brother, but is otherwise virtually identical to the Dara Happan cult. This is natural, since the Dara Happans borrowed heavily from Pelanda when reconstructing their religion in the First Age.
The name of the Carmanian version of Humakt (Hu'makt) has its apostrophe in the wrong place on page 21 in the Carmanos Law-Bringer Associated Cults section.
SORCERY:
Carmanos Law-Bringer cult (page 20) says that Carmanians don't practice sorcery. Eventually Carmanians find a relatively safe way to practice sorcery under the auspices of the cult of Malakinus, Lord of Good Sorcery. It is possible that Carmanians haven't discovered Malakinus by the time of Glorantha: Second Age. Maybe they discover him during Shah Nadar the Avenger's military adventures in Fronela (919 – 929 ST). Defeating the EWF would have been easier with sorcery, though, and playing Carmanians without sorcery doesn't seem as much fun! I would much rather say that Malakinus was discovered during the reign of Shah Carmandar the White (865 – 872 ST) or Saman the Lion. YGWV.
Despite all of this, what is in the book is quite playable (excepting already mentioned issues) and interesting. I can't wait to see more!
ninthcouncil
Mongoose
I think it's fair to say that, with the exception of the odd passing nutter, the reception for MoG suggests you should be savouring at worst a nice Darjeeling. The taste of dark side porcelain has definitely been avoidedDead Blue Clown said:
.kpmcdona said:
Glad you liked it. Wish I lived closer to you than I currently do. There's a dearth of RQ players in Charleston, SC.
Simple explanation: I have 300 words or so to describe the Carmainan faith as a whole. Your explanation about light and dark is approximately 600....
A discussion with Greg on the Carmanians of the time revealed that they hate the dark and only a few, carefully sanctioned wizards and others are permitted to use the dark magic.
Besides, I liked how the crusading/absolutist feel of the current Church felt when I wrote it.
No, I felt this was acceptable for the limitations I had. None of the documents I used called it Old Carmania.
These did not survive the editing process.
My sources differed.
Greg said that this was the correct person to use for my purposes. And I prefer to err on the side of MGF.
Anyway, I don't think I want to debate this. There is a certain level of Gloranthan List Grognard I am not prepared to embrace for my writing. My target writing audience is, to be honest, the folks who have not gotten into the hugely detailed Glorantha but the more casual gamer. I simply do not have the space to go into such detail - and such would probably lose many of the readers who, frankly, don't care about that area (or about Pamaltea, or about Dara Happa, or about Justrela - take your pick!). There's just too much ground to cover.
Such detailing would be very fitting for, say, long desc cults or a Carmanian region book.
I am happy to discuss this over private email, however.
Jeff
Likewise! Maybe we can get in a game at StellarCon? Is your schedule going to allow you to attend?Voriof said:
<laugh> Well, I do tend to be long winded.
Interesting...
I agree - that is the right tone for Carmanians.
"Old Carmania" is a term used to describe the region of the early kingdom of Carmania, mostly just the Oronin Valley. See the map in Fortunate Succession on page 49. My point with this quibble was just that using two names for the same place is potentially confusing. Particularly the Durbadath entry (page 44) that reads "The lion-god of Pelanda and Carmania." That seems a bit redundant since one term (Carmania) covers the other. It is like saying that the Honda Accord is a popular car in South Carolina and the Carolinas. Like I said, its just a quibble.
Really? I have seen the apostrophe in a couple of different places but never at the end (Humak't). The Imperial Lunar Handbook vol 1 has it as Hum'akt. <shrug>Voriof said:
Correct person? MGF? I think I failed my board-reading skill check! What do you mean?Voriof said:
I understand, and don't intend to get into a debate over minutiae here. I also hope I have not offended - I understand that a person can feel a bit protective about their work. My post was not intended as any kind of attack. Honestly, I think CoG1 is a great book.voriof said:
My reason for pointing out these things is that there has been so little written about Carmania that every little thing that gets published becomes magnified in importance. My love for the region is what makes me post. If I had the time/energy/talent to devote to it, I would write the definitive Carmania book myself. Since I don't, I find myself in the position of an arm-chair quarterback or back-seat driver. I understand that both of these can be a bit annoying from time to time! I try very hard to keep it in check.
Thanks for the offer! I am pretty reactive, though. As long as nobody else is saying/writing anything I tend to keep to myself. I am happy to talk, but don't have much more to say than has already been said... until Cults II comes out.
Thanks again for giving us a great book. Keep up the good work!
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