So Amazon Cancelled My Preorder of SM
- Thread starter dmccoy1693
- Start date
Side-wheel steam frigates with big guns in a central open-topped barbette. The world needs more of those!
The 1850-1900 period was interesting in that technology was advancing faster than ships could be built and nobody really knew what would work. The 'first engagement' idea has all kinds of possibilities.
The 1850-1900 period was interesting in that technology was advancing faster than ships could be built and nobody really knew what would work. The 'first engagement' idea has all kinds of possibilities.
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
MJD said:
I am still always astonished when a dedicated role player says they aren't really a wargamer. Nothing wrong with it, I understand why, but I guess I'm an old enough Grognard that Its still hard to imagine how one gets to RPGs except thru wargaming......its probably a good thing, though, given how ....conflicted.....the bulk of the old wargaming community was about us punks changing sides for that D&D rot.....I well remember one long term boardgame (SPI, not german woodenblock) friend denouncing me when we opened a game and found no dice: "you've already scrounged them for D&D god dammit, haven't you !"
Of course, he only ever got into traveller, and that thru Mercenary - still, it was fun asking him where he got his dice.....and then blowing him out an airlock burning from an FGMP hit in an oh so realistic boarding action....
Eh. Whats that sonny ? The actual topic ? Hell, boy, I'm OLD. Mah mind wanders. Which reminds me .......
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
MJD said:
Understood. It's just a bit gobsmacking to me that someone who Roleplays doesn't also self identify as a wargamer..... again, a measure of my Grognardyness.
Its kind of like the first time I made a redshirt joke at work, and the local self professed trekkie didn't get it, explaining that she: "never had seen any of the old stuff".
Astonishing enough that a trek fan was female, but.........huh ?
Jack, about 90% of the people I know who are RPGers under age 40 never wargamed nor minis-gamed*, and many (I'd say about 60-70%) have never played any boardgames other than typical "family" games (Cleudo/Clue, Scrabble, Sorry, Aggrivation, Parchisi, Bridge, Cribbage, type stuff).
WWG's big innovation was putting the roleplay into a strongly story-oriented jargon-set, with a compelling subcultural overtone. WWG brought a lot of the "goth" crowd to RPGs without ever having seen non-family-boardgames of any stripe, and without ever playing miniatures.
*It seems that Wargaming in the UK is minis, while in the US its chits-on-hexgrids... from the references to them on BGG...
WWG's big innovation was putting the roleplay into a strongly story-oriented jargon-set, with a compelling subcultural overtone. WWG brought a lot of the "goth" crowd to RPGs without ever having seen non-family-boardgames of any stripe, and without ever playing miniatures.
*It seems that Wargaming in the UK is minis, while in the US its chits-on-hexgrids... from the references to them on BGG...
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
Probably because we had SPI and Avalon hill over here as actual companies with distribution and etc, and the fact that given the distances here boardgames are easier to transport than lead...I think there were about as many leadheads here as there, but the actual department store compatable boardgames spread it to a wider audience.
Me - I came to mini gaming from boardgaming via a favorite game I had heard about having been converted to minis (AH's Alexander - oddly enough by Gary Gygax)...and I had to actually be lucky enough to get to the UK before I could find out about it. And all long before D&D.
Ironic, really as we also had Jack Scruby, who lived about twenty minutes from my grandparents.
As to the rest, yeah, I know - I'd also add that TSR more than anything mainstreamed RPGs before the WW gothic games came along - saturday morning cartoons, action figs, major distribution in mall bookstores, etc.
No, it's just one of those, "its hard to believe what happened to a very small and limited hobby" kind of things that surprises me....that and I don't think I regularly game with many under 40 gamers, I guess. I would note that this is not by choice or prejudice -just inertia and time -we all started out as under 30 gamers, and then....uh, our best guess is evil pixies made time pass rediculously fast.
Me - I came to mini gaming from boardgaming via a favorite game I had heard about having been converted to minis (AH's Alexander - oddly enough by Gary Gygax)...and I had to actually be lucky enough to get to the UK before I could find out about it. And all long before D&D.
Ironic, really as we also had Jack Scruby, who lived about twenty minutes from my grandparents.
As to the rest, yeah, I know - I'd also add that TSR more than anything mainstreamed RPGs before the WW gothic games came along - saturday morning cartoons, action figs, major distribution in mall bookstores, etc.
No, it's just one of those, "its hard to believe what happened to a very small and limited hobby" kind of things that surprises me....that and I don't think I regularly game with many under 40 gamers, I guess. I would note that this is not by choice or prejudice -just inertia and time -we all started out as under 30 gamers, and then....uh, our best guess is evil pixies made time pass rediculously fast.
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
MJD said:
Yeah, they really hurt, and the metal ones leave such a mark.......
WWG took gaming away from being exclusive to geekdom. The 90's saw a rise of a whole new class of gamerdom. Many WWG players in the mid 1990's in Alaska had never seen D&D, had never set foot in a store carrying it.
And it didn't suggest even a similar mode of play. 2E was just around the corner, and 1E was still recommending minis and/or counters on the map. So was traveller. So was STRPG1E, GURPS, Hero, Star Frontiers, Marvel Super Heroes, Car Wars, WFRP, and many others.
VTM emphasized a whole different approach to play: narrate everything. Lavish descriptions, no maps on the table. Focus on the emotions of the character, and the motivations. Background stories, not statues and/or pictures. Don't worry about the dice; don't impose minimum chance of failure, don't be afraid to say "yeah, you succeed" when it serves the story. Couple that with the distribution through the mainstream book trade, and it reached a huge, varied, and decidedly "Non-wargamer" crowd. (It also changed how I ran my games quite a bit.)
It's amazing how many of us old grogs were wargamers of one stripe or another. I cut my gaming teeth on family games. THen to AH Survival, and on to 1776 and Tactics II. Then to D&D... a very brief stint of Star Frontiers, and on to SFB & Traveller simultaneously (with the same group of players).
I have an interest in naval ships mostly from my cadet days.... Chugiak HS NJROTC. I've played the USN's NWC Naval Wargame of the mid 1980's... it's essentially Harpoon to an extra decimal place or two. (and most of the sensors are better than Harpoon indicates by a % or two.) I later got Harpoon, and understood why Cdr Bond got in trouble over it.
One of these days, I'll get to play Wooden Ships and Iron Men, Battlewagon, or Ironclads and Ether Flyers again. But I married one of those "new Gamers" who never did boardgames nor wargames. (She was a Hero System player when I met her; I was running WWG and WFRP...)
And it didn't suggest even a similar mode of play. 2E was just around the corner, and 1E was still recommending minis and/or counters on the map. So was traveller. So was STRPG1E, GURPS, Hero, Star Frontiers, Marvel Super Heroes, Car Wars, WFRP, and many others.
VTM emphasized a whole different approach to play: narrate everything. Lavish descriptions, no maps on the table. Focus on the emotions of the character, and the motivations. Background stories, not statues and/or pictures. Don't worry about the dice; don't impose minimum chance of failure, don't be afraid to say "yeah, you succeed" when it serves the story. Couple that with the distribution through the mainstream book trade, and it reached a huge, varied, and decidedly "Non-wargamer" crowd. (It also changed how I ran my games quite a bit.)
It's amazing how many of us old grogs were wargamers of one stripe or another. I cut my gaming teeth on family games. THen to AH Survival, and on to 1776 and Tactics II. Then to D&D... a very brief stint of Star Frontiers, and on to SFB & Traveller simultaneously (with the same group of players).
I have an interest in naval ships mostly from my cadet days.... Chugiak HS NJROTC. I've played the USN's NWC Naval Wargame of the mid 1980's... it's essentially Harpoon to an extra decimal place or two. (and most of the sensors are better than Harpoon indicates by a % or two.) I later got Harpoon, and understood why Cdr Bond got in trouble over it.
One of these days, I'll get to play Wooden Ships and Iron Men, Battlewagon, or Ironclads and Ether Flyers again. But I married one of those "new Gamers" who never did boardgames nor wargames. (She was a Hero System player when I met her; I was running WWG and WFRP...)
