Ship tweeks

The Orestes and Omega are battleships. Unless you want a super-carrier for the early years EA, there's really no role suitable for a ship at that level. We're told the first Poseidon was destroyed by the Minbari and no others were launched until after the war, so a unique Poseidon at war would be possible, but not very useful in my eyes.
 
At the point of the Earth-Minbari War, the Orestes was probably as big a battleship as Earth could actually build with their current technology. The fluff says that the Orestes was designed as the "heavy hitting hammer of the Earthforces war on the raiders"

If you look at the 3rd Age list, the War level ships we see are the Poseidon, Omega-Command, and the Warlock. If we discount the Warlock (as it is advanced tech), it seems clear to me that from the Orestes the next step is going to be the standard Omega, so at best I could imagine a "Command Orestes" but I certainly wouldn't expect to see that at War PL.

It's all rather subjective of course, but the artificial split of Early EA/3rd Age/Crusade does allow us to see how the fleet has changed over the years, and in my opinion nothing fits at War PL in the Early EA fleet because they did not have the tech to produce something comparable to other War PL ships at that time.

Regards,

Dave
 
My thoughts :)

Re ISD - well I sort of understand them to mean the ship as it is in that configaration so in some cases the ship is available at an earlier ISD but would be a different ship if you see what I mean.

Re ships changes:

The G'Quan, Shadow Fighters, Stalker and Abbai in general need big help

The Demos needs to be reduced in power..........The Octurion could do weith a longer range beam. The G'Vharn could do with being tweeked - maybe just loose Command / AJP but not more than that.

I'd like to see Battle level Nova and Hyperion (Hecate) like in LC's novel / AOG (?) for Early years.............not sure about a war level ship.

I thought the whole point of the Omega was it was post EM war ship - bit confusing it being at the battle of the line? :?
 
Early EA and War PL

Role - a long term system control ship.. rotating section ship intended to act as Command and Control for a fleet of more agile ship. I would have heavy armament given it's role and personnel on board, but due to economic issues you wouldn't risk it in direct conflict if you could avoid it... but you wouldn't have to send folks all the way home for health reasons. It could effectively been a mini mobile B5. Good for advancing military where you might not find intact infastructure to rest your troops at... especially in the Dilgar era as they poisoned planets with bio weapons... can't count on any planet being usable.

Scale - how often do we have to say that PL and SIZE of a ship have nothing to do with each other... PL is supposed to be a measure combat power not size. It's also not a measure of tech btw... as lots and lots of old guns and heavy armor is still very potent... new tech doesn't necessarily cause old tech to become worthless, it just takes more of it.

Abbai - turtle fleets don't work unless you have some way to force your opponent to come to you. This is the first failing of the Abbai design, and I'm betting will be the failure of any 'mine field tech' rules they come up with. As long as there are potent sniper ships and all stop and pivot, no defensive bunker mentality will work, unless the abbai can shoot back at the same ranges.



Ripple
 
Ripple said:
Early EA and War PL

Role - a long term system control ship.. rotating section ship intended to act as Command and Control for a fleet of more agile ship.

According to the "fluff" (and we know what that is worth for the most part), the EA didn't develop the generation of artificial gravity by rotating sections until after the E-M war. The fleet book itself also says that the Orestes could unleash "some of the heaviest weapons the Alliance had to offer" so from that I see no rationale to create a War level ship which boasts even heavier weapons, and tech not seen until the Omega.

Given that we have far more canon knowledge of Earthforce than we do of any other race, I don't see the need to create a new class of vessel for Early EA just to "fill a hole" which isn't really there anyway. What next? An Armageddon level ship too?

It's already been said that Early EA is a very competitive list - why more options for the sake of it?

Regards,

Dave
 
Joe_Dracos said:
EA: Crusade

Rumored to be amungst the weakest fleets in the book, this fleet could use an overhaul in general. The Hyperion really does not belong in this list and needs to be replaced. More chronos variants and Marathon Variants could be used to fill the list out properly and a refitted Omega to give the fleet its own unique feel. This list should also really have an Armageddon choice that isn't a unique choice from another list. This list should aslo have a raid level (fleet) carrier.
Well variants for the Chronos are viable (and we're looking at the possibility) and I agree that the Hyperion doesn't really fit - that's where the Omicron would come into it, and would've done if the ship design and production hadn't have halted. An Omicron and a couple of variants would've done nicely and the fleet would be very nice.
 
In my opinion, the whole 'no War level ship' in the Early years is mearly a product of the 3 EA split. There is really only 1 Earth Allinance list and it is MASSIVE. Not counting fighters OR variants, there are 23 ships, 33 variants (no fighters). They have 6 selections for fighters! It is broken down for basic ISD. If you were to fill out the other races as well as Earth is and then broke them up into three seperate lists, you would end up with the same results.

Take the Narn. The 'Narn Heavy Cruiser' is a more advanced hull design for them. Its ISD is almost the SAME as the Omega. Prior to it, they did not have a battle level ship. If the Narn were broken up similar to Earth, they would only field ships up to Raid in their 'early years'
 
Triggy said:
Joe_Dracos said:
EA: Crusade

Rumored to be amungst the weakest fleets in the book, this fleet could use an overhaul in general. The Hyperion really does not belong in this list and needs to be replaced. More chronos variants and Marathon Variants could be used to fill the list out properly and a refitted Omega to give the fleet its own unique feel. This list should also really have an Armageddon choice that isn't a unique choice from another list. This list should aslo have a raid level (fleet) carrier.
Well variants for the Chronos are viable (and we're looking at the possibility) and I agree that the Hyperion doesn't really fit - that's where the Omicron would come into it, and would've done if the ship design and production hadn't have halted. An Omicron and a couple of variants would've done nicely and the fleet would be very nice.

apro pos Omicron.
Have anybody an idea or exists an rumor how the ship looks???
Just for the cause it comes in the future...what would be really nice. :D

And how often enough sayed... Yes, the Crusade EA needs an Hyperion replacement. Something like the Tempest.
I have my options for my fleets, the Pegasus, the Charybdis and the Nova II (Quasar) but they are not "official". And some more options at lower levels, like the Moonsone (don´t remember the exact name) Gunboat would be fine. I mean the early EA is fine. More ships at high level would be nice but not essential. The same for the third age EA.
An Arma level Dilgar ship would be nice, so. 8)
 
Command Orestes System Monitor(nicknamed Porcupine)
Hull 6
Hits 60 Crew 70
Speed 5 Turns 1/45
Craft 4 Tiger Starfury Troops 5
Command +1, Anti Fighter 8, Interceptors 2, Escort, Lumbering

Heavy Laser Cannon 25" Boresight 6AD Beam,DD
Railguns 12" Forward 10AD AP,DD
Plasma Gun 8" Forward 10AD AP,Twinlinked
Railguns 12" Starboard/Port 8AD AP,DD
Plasma Guns 8"Starboard/Port 8AD AP,Twinlinked
Plasma Guns Aft 8"6AD AP,Twinlinked
Medium Laser Cannon 15" Boresight Aft 2AD Beam
Missle Rack 30" Turret 5AD SAP,Precise, Slowloading

The fluff could say the design was horrible expensive to make & time consuming, 3 Orestes could been bulit for one of these. It horribly ammo intensive making unflexible as it had to be near a supply line & really only a defensive ship.
 
Minbari: While the Minbari are my main fleet of choice, I do not know exactly where to improve them... Currently speaking, the best ships in the fleet are their Battle and War level ships (the Tinashi and Sharlin hulls). Given that the game as a whole favors small ships, this puts them at a disadvantage. While giving the fleet a Patrol level ship would improve their chances in small games (ie. the 5 point skirmish), I would think that something else could be done to give them a slight tweak; more damage and crew, perhaps interceptors, perhaps the Battle, War and Armageddon get a better hull, perhaps more firepower (like 1 more AD to a couple of arcs)? Maybe the real improvement is to roll back one or two of the ways to break stealth so that it isn't so easy to reduce the ship before everyone starts to fire? I don't think that they need much to compete with the top tier fleets, but I also don't think the change is significant enough to warrant a worry. So, perhaps no change at all is best for them...

Narn: This is another fleet that I am in total disagreement with the current wisdom of this forum. I find this to be one of the best fleets in the game. It has energy mines to reduce stealth, wipe out small ships and utterly destroy fighter swarms. Additionally, it has wonderful long range weapons that are the envy of nearly everyone else. When one looks at the weaknesses of the fleet; fighters, few defenses, all Battle level ships, one can easily focus too heavily on these few failings and ignore the strengths. I would counter that the Narn have better Anti-fighter tools than "Anti-Fighter" as they have the range to deal with the threat long before anyone can fire (also, they have this strength from nearly every selection from Skirmish on up to Armageddon). They have long range threats that are better than even the dreaded Sagittarius (aka. the Dag'Kar). They have fantastic beam weapons (albeit mostly boresights), although they also have access to one of the best 2-for-1 Patrol boats in the game: Sho'Kov. If you build your fleet from the box set, then you are setting yourself up for failure. On the other hand, you can build it around other, very capable threats: Sho'Kov, Ka'Toc, Dag'Kar, G'Karith, Var'Nic, and nearly any War or Armageddon level ships.

Centauri: I think that everyone understands the problem with the Demos.

ISA: This is a great fleet that relies on 2 types of ships; the Blue and White star vessels. Beyond that, there isn't much to say about the fleet. Because it has access to LoNAW, Earth, Narn and Minbari fleets, the threat of enemy fighters is quickly negated. IMO, this is one of the best out there; but not so good that they need changing.

Abbai: What has been said has already been said in numerous threads.

Brakiri: This is a great fleet with awesome options. It has great, long range weapons, solid beams, very cool fighters, healthy selections of carriers. I have very little to complain about them; nothing needs improvement.

Drazi: This is one of the weakest fleets in the game (IMO). The over-reliance on boresights and mostly medium range guns are the death-nail in this coffin. It needs more forward arcs, the battle and war level ships need starboard and port guns, and/or the smaller craft need to be more agile than they currently are (perhaps 1 turn at 90 degrees instead of the 2/45 with agile).

Gaim: Well, an all queen fleet from the book is too good. Also, although no one at my LGS has tried out the new fleet list, I would guess that it is fine today.

Pak'Ma'Ra: This is also, IMO, one of the weaker fleets in the game. I believe that this is mainly due to the low initiative compiled with the poor fighter support and the few options available.

Vree: Again, I seem to be at odds with most of the general consensus out there. I believe that this fleet is strong; perhaps the strongest of the League fleets today. Yet this is still a fragile fleet that gets torn apart by stronger fleets like the Centauri or Narn. If you fill your fleet with the Xarr ships, it will behave like a brutal swarm, which has it's own problems, but this is far from the worst compared to a swarm of Sho'Kov ships.

Raiders: Wow! When people complained about the Abbai, they obviously didn't look at the Raiders quite enough. Their fighters are only slightly stronger than the Abbai (assuming you pay extra for the upgrade), and the capital ships themselves are like toned-down versions of everyone else (in terms of hull, damage, crew and weapons). To their credit, they do have access to other League fleet ships, but if you want to do this, then why not just play the League?

Vorlons: This is an unusual fleet. Some of my local opponents feel that this is TOO good of a fleet and too hard to kill. Admittedly, if you rely on forward guns, then the Vorlons will out-shoot you (my Minbari have a really tough time when fighting them). That said, they have the same problem as the Drazi in that if you get past that front gun, you are half way to wining the game (sorry to all the ships that rely on hanging back and killing from far away). I do think that this fleet is really only missing a Raid level ship to make it complete. However, because of the current problem with swarm fleets being stronger, the Vorlons are distinctly disadvantaged as their stronger ship comes in the War level.

Shadows: I would not categorize this as having the same problem as the Vorlons; Not at all. This fleet list has very weak fighters for their cost (something NEEDS to be done to improve this). Also, there is no Skirmish level ship (VERY bad for small games). Next, the Battle level ship is not worth taking (why not take 2 Raid level ships and be done with it). IMO, I would give the Phasing Pulse Cannon to the Battle level ship as well and perhaps improve the shields to boot. Finally, and this is more of a fluff issue for me, where is the scream? That scream, the black hull and spidery appearance is what MADE those ships scary. There should be SOMETHING made available to make them more intimidating.

Drahk: While I have been shown how good this fleet can be (thank you Robert from my LGS, you proved me wrong), I do agree with much of the comments on this thread; it will be very tough to figure out how to improve the fleet if you mess with the PL system and the inherent advantages of swarm fleets.

Psi-Corp: I really think that this fleet needs very little. It has access to the best of all 3 Earth eras and can bring (arguably) the best fighters in the game. If there was anything to improve, it would be the Shadow Omegas (needs more guns and longer range on that beam) and Nemesis (just a tiny bit more guns would suffice). Beyond that, leave them alone.

Whew... Back to studying for my upcoming test...
 
Urobach - There wasn't any design for the Omicron that I knew of. It was in development and we got to the point where the rules looked pretty good for them. Then miniature production stopped and the whole project is on hold. Let's hope that with miniature production resuming that they may see a comeback :)

eldiablito said:
Shadows: I would not categorize this as having the same problem as the Vorlons; Not at all. This fleet list has very weak fighters for their cost (something NEEDS to be done to improve this). Also, there is no Skirmish level ship (VERY bad for small games). Next, the Battle level ship is not worth taking (why not take 2 Raid level ships and be done with it). IMO, I would give the Phasing Pulse Cannon to the Battle level ship as well and perhaps improve the shields to boot. Finally, and this is more of a fluff issue for me, where is the scream? That scream, the black hull and spidery appearance is what MADE those ships scary. There should be SOMETHING made available to make them more intimidating.
Hmm, Fighters check; Stalker check; Shadows Scream check.
The Shadows have a few nice things coming up and this isn't the end of the list...
 
From the previous page

the Orestes had the biggest guns... my suggestion for a war ship for early EA might very well not have the same range.. or any 'bigger' gun... just lots of guns. The all round fire one... and the ship in question might not have been looked at by fleet as a 'ship' as more a mobile station. Thus not even considered as part of the 'fleet' by most.

Anyway, my point was that you had options to build one... there is a an almost religious fanaticism around here for limiting stuff. This is not a historical game folks, Mongoose has made it perfectly clear that the fluff they write is meaningless (go read some and look at the stats) and that they won't stick to other companies fluff either. Hell even fluff from the show (only the G'Quan has the firepower to hurt a shadow ship among the army of light... what a joke)... Don't shut down options, especially ones that someone play in a greater range of battles to easily.

on Raiders from just above... we all tried to fix raiders years ago... but Matt told us flat our they would never be worth their points... and he wants them that way. So we moved on to other stuff.

Ripple
 
As another note on the orestes for those argueing its the "pinicale/biggest/best" ship the EA has.... its also pre-hyperspace tech. In fact according to the fluff (just for arguement sake) multis of these could not stop a single corvan scout when they made contact with earth (if the centauri had decided to invade).

Anyway, we aren't here to argue fluff or symantics, we're here to put forth ideas about completing and expanding our current lists to make them more fun. If we are not going to expand our current lists... whats the point of publishing Powers and Principalities since there can't be any new models (yet).
 
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