Ship tweeks

[Joe_Dracos]

So me and a friend of mine got to discussing a few things about the particular ships of babylon 5: ACTA.

So I thought I would put it up here to see what everybody else thinks.

In order

EA: Early years

Probably the most flexible fleet in the book, but it does need tweeking. Any fix for breaking a FAP down in PLs would work, but this fleet really does also need a War level choice to keep it from being a swarm fleet at a war level game anyway. In fact there should be no fleet in the game with 0 choices at any priority (except Armageddon).

EA: 3rd age

The Omega should be more plentiful and more easily accessable to players. Otherwise this fleet just turns into a less flexible early years fleet. There are examples of making a vairent tougher to bump it up PL levels, so why not make varients less resilient and drop them PL levels (raid). Also this age could use a missile boat.

EA: Crusade

Rumored to be amungst the weakest fleets in the book, this fleet could use an overhaul in general. The Hyperion really does not belong in this list and needs to be replaced. More chronos variants and Marathon Variants could be used to fill the list out properly and a refitted Omega to give the fleet its own unique feel. This list should also really have an Armageddon choice that isn't a unique choice from another list. This list should aslo have a raid level (fleet) carrier.

Dilgar: Not reviewed

Minbari

This fleet should get an LCV for there fleet.

Narn: Make two for 1 ships a little beefier and remove the 2 for 1 (from all fleets with these ships)

Centauri: Demos needs reviewing

ISA

We are really un impressed with the White star gunship. It is basically just 2 white stars in one ship. There is not much insentive to take it over the two white stars.

Abbai

Not really addressed

Brakiri

Not addressed

Drazi

Not addressed

Gaim

Not addressed

Pak'Ma'Ra

Not adressed

Vree

Another example of a swarm fleet.

Raiders

not addressed

Vorlons

There higher PL ships have more damage then a full PL above them (only the T'loth and T'ran have as much). Take Adaptive armour, Self repair, no crew, can't be boarded and redundant systems into account and they can survive attacks from ships two PLs above them (which should be more like a 13 year old beating up a 5 year old). While this does match the show, game balance wise it is not good. Also the limited choices makes for a very bland fleet. If you want them to be like the other ancients then simply make them not accessable to regular play or take some creative licence (like in all the other fleets) and make them a full fleet by providing them with a number of smaller ships and fighters and a balanced higher PL fleet.

Shadows

This fleet has the same limitations as the Vorlons. Either make them an ancient race or expand the fleet.

Drahk

The huge hangers are really a problem. The Carrier and mother ship both carry another FAP worth of ships. You can litterally bring twice the number of FAPs to the battle then your opponent.

Psi-Corp

Give them a few more ships.

 

[eldiablito]

As someone who has played either as or against each fleet, here are my takes on your comments:

Early Years: These guys are a strong fleet, but you have to know HOW to use each ship. If there was anything to do with this fleet, it would be to upgrade the Orestes.

3rd Age: I TEND to agree... However, the Omega issue would be less of a problem if people played more Battle level games instead of Raid. Honestly, I think I prefer the Early Years' Double Damage weapons over the 3rd age's twin-link weapons.

Crusade: I do not agree with most people's assessment. This fleet has really tough ships (Chronos for example). The fleet has powerful weapons (Marathon for example). It has brutal fighters and bombers (Firebolts, Thunderbolts and Aurora fighters are the envy of most other races). The fleet is near perfect and a Raid level Fleet Carrier could potentially make them too good.

Dilgar: This is a brutal and great fleet. A buddy of mine has been able to make the fleet sing. However, the Skirmish ships are too week and their scouts are just begging to get squashed. However, that said, the critical effects and fighter special rules make them a fearful opponent.

I'll post more... later...

 

[Ripple]

Agree on the ancients to the extent that they should be like all other fleets and have variants etc...

Dilgar are brutal and need no help.

Vree are brutal at all levels, they don't need to swarm, they just can effectively

two for ones need to go...

EA - early years is actually fine... though would like to see a War.

- third age... more omegas would be nice, but that needs a pl fix so buying up isn't death...

- crusade... they only look weak next to early... the issue is that you go to build a crusade fleet and you can build better early or 3rd because they buy down better... same issue as always, buying down is too good, so good high pl ships aren'tworth it.

Ripple

 

[Target]

In the eraly EA i'd like to see a Command Nova & War level Orestes, maybe give lots of weapons all directions Octurion style & escort trait.

 

[Tolwyn]

I agree with much of all mentioned here.

Crusade is the weakest EA list out there. The Dilgar need no help exept for some tweaks in the skirmish levels ships (the Ochlavita's weapons are a joke) and perhaps some of the battle and war choices. I still miss some ships from AOG :wink:

Vree are really nasty, perhaps even to nasty with swarms even nastier :?

The Abbai need a fix to their ships, not necesserily new rules.

Brakiri are fine I think, perhaps some tweaks.

Ancients- need some tweaks and perhaps some more choices

Narn and Centauri - see the discussion going on

In addition I would be glad for more supplements who depict the history of the B5 Universe. Something like "The rise of the Narn Regime" or Earth's early expansion into the galaxy.

 

[Omnipotent]

Feel I can start returning here, since the there are some good news coming out.

If we forget the problems with FAP, boresight etc. and focus on the fleets alone I´d say the biggest changes needs to be done for Abbai, 3Age and Vree (well planetary assault is there weakness :roll: ).

The abbai needs to get some kinda movemenet improvement, or then just longer range on there weapons, personally I like the idea of a "turtle" fleet that hits hard, right now they neither keep to gether long enough nor nearly ever get to shoot there weapons as u just measure where u "can" move your fleet and stay out of there pathetic range.

3Age, well everybody knows there weak raid level cripples them bad, there weapon range could be made longer (more missiles?). Actually like the idea of making the omega a raid lvl choice. It could actually work very well to boost 3Age.

Vree = measure = win...Right now there superiour movement is just murder for F/B fleets...While fleets like 3Age should get some shoots in lack the range in side arcs. There weapons are very good no doubt, but it is there movement that is just to much, add JE and you´ll be lucky if u score more then a few points. There SM movement needs to be nerft, make it 1/4 of there movement and things just might look a bit different. Atm the can just APTE u to death, that is if they want to, they could just open jumppoints, jump out with SM movement and be where they want to.

A few more things, Crusade age might not need a smaller carrier, but they need a better raid lvl choice. The Omega can again save the day...I see alot of potential in the Omega, the B-sight beam just cripples it alot atm.

 

[Foxmeister]

I don't think it particularly appropriate for Early EA to get a War level ship - if they didn't have the Omega in that period why would they have something that would be bigger?

Crusade era is an easy one to fix - dump it and move the ships back into the 3rd Age list. I see no reason why there should be an arbitrary split at this point in the timeline. Ditto Psi-Corp - it should be a sublist of 3rd Age, not a list in its own right.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Greg Smith]

3Age, well everybody knows there weak raid level cripples them bad,

So which of Avenger, Nova, Hyperion, Explorer do you consider weak?

I'm suprised no one has mentioned the G'Quan yet.

 

[Joe_Dracos]

I don't think it particularly appropriate for Early EA to get a War level ship - if they didn't have the Omega in that period why would they have something that would be bigger?

Thats rather poor reasoning. Especially according to the fluff there were Omegas at the battle of the line and they even had a Posiedon super carrier when the war started. Losses prevented further construction however. So they did have larger ships and they were building bigger ones. Also, an omega and a Nova are actually similar in size, the Nova just doesn't carry they same punch.

Crusade era is an easy one to fix - dump it and move the ships back into the 3rd Age list. I see no reason why there should be an arbitrary split at this point in the timeline. Ditto Psi-Corp - it should be a sublist of 3rd Age, not a list in its own right.

The reason is simple. The 3rd age fleet and the Crusade era fleet are actually quite different, the 3rd age is post Minbari war where human technology is starting climb in power and the Crusade era is human technology approaching the minbari's level and where they truely become one of the big powers in the galaxy.

 

[l33tpenguin]

I don't think it particularly appropriate for Early EA to get a War level ship - if they didn't have the Omega in that period why would they have something that would be bigger?

Thats rather poor reasoning. Especially according to the fluff there were Omegas at the battle of the line and they even had a Posiedon super carrier when the war started. Losses prevented further construction however. So they did have larger ships and they were building bigger ones. Also, an omega and a Nova are actually similar in size, the Nova just doesn't carry they same punch.

Crusade era is an easy one to fix - dump it and move the ships back into the 3rd Age list. I see no reason why there should be an arbitrary split at this point in the timeline. Ditto Psi-Corp - it should be a sublist of 3rd Age, not a list in its own right.

The reason is simple. The 3rd age fleet and the Crusade era fleet are actually quite different, the 3rd age is post Minbari war where human technology is starting climb in power and the Crusade era is human technology approaching the minbari's level and where they truely become one of the big powers in the galaxy.

You realize, of course, you argued against your first paragraph with what you said in your second paragraph. The split is simple. The young years represent Earth just starting to grow up. They don't have any ships that are technologically advanced or that REALLY pack a big punch. They didn't have ANYTHING that could stand toe to toe against a Minbari War Cruiser.

The Omega was basically a turning point in Earth starship technology and weapons design. It was supposed to be the 'last warship earth would ever need' thus the designation 'Omega'. Of course, earth ship builders were obviously short sighted.

 

[Omnipotent]

3Age, well everybody knows there weak raid level cripples them bad,

So which of Avenger, Nova, Hyperion, Explorer do you consider weak?

I'm suprised no one has mentioned the G'Quan yet.

erhm, must pay more attention to what I write...that comment should be about crusade age :roll: ...

 

[Omnipotent]

The Narn and there G´Quan is of course a given weak point. But the overage Narn fleet is playable.

 

[locarno24]

EA: Early years

Probably the most flexible fleet in the book, but it does need tweeking. Any fix for breaking a FAP down in PLs would work, but this fleet really does also need a War level choice to keep it from being a swarm fleet at a war level game anyway. In fact there should be no fleet in the game with 0 choices at any priority (except Armageddon).

I agree with Foxmeister. The Omega destroyer doesn't exist yet so why would there be something more capable in combat? A better battle priority choice, maybe, or maybe even more than one (the EA sourcebook for the RPG lists a few warships, can't remember if there was another capital ship amongst them). Alternatively, including the Nova-X* as a battle priority ship might work.

If you're splitting fleets up by era, then yes, there will be fleets without upper or lower ends. I agree that there should be no 'holes' in a fleet - that is, you should have a good generic combat ship at all continuous levels rather than skipping raid priority (or whatever) but there's no problem with missing patrol off the bottom or war/armageddon off the top.

EA: 3rd age

The Omega should be more plentiful and more easily accessable to players. Otherwise this fleet just turns into a less flexible early years fleet. There are examples of making a vairent tougher to bump it up PL levels, so why not make varients less resilient and drop them PL levels (raid). Also this age could use a missile boat.

Missiles appearing in force in crusade era (warlock/apollo) and early (hyperion/saggitarius) but not third age is bloody odd, I'll grant you. It'd make sense if they either progressively came into service or went out of service but instead they just stopped using them for a while....
The additions to the fleet are plentiful - there's no shortage of new ship types - but almost all of them are higher priority. Which, as far as I'm concerned, is fine. The Tantalus is a nice ship, and the Omega makes a good fleet backbone. The fleet is different, but it's intended for playing games at battle priority, not skirmish.

More ships is always nice, but I'm not sure if having the Omega destroyer span three priority levels works. I know the Command Omega isn't exactly the same hull, but even so.....besides, as noted, what's wrong with the Tantalus and Pulse cannon Nova.

EA: Crusade

Rumored to be amungst the weakest fleets in the book, this fleet could use an overhaul in general. The Hyperion really does not belong in this list and needs to be replaced. More chronos variants and Marathon Variants could be used to fill the list out properly and a refitted Omega to give the fleet its own unique feel. This list should also really have an Armageddon choice that isn't a unique choice from another list. This list should aslo have a raid level (fleet) carrier.

I agree that the Hyperion seems a bit outdated. It feels odd to have any ship appear in all three eras (ditto the Hermes - possibly resurrect the Cotten-class tender for earlier eras?).

At one point there was supposed to be a frigate-class ship (I forget the name) coming out, which would presumably have been a new-generation combat ship at raid. A heavy chronos variant would work quite well.

I'm really not sure there's a need for a raid-level carrier. Since there aren't any more ships with a large fighter wing below battle (explorer aside but that's a special case), so it's only really fleet carrier-ing for its own fighter craft...there's no need for everyone to have a fleet carrier for small games. Hell, some fleets don't have one at all!

Late-variant Omegas are ok, but the question is then how do you upgrade them? Third age upgrades generally involves fitting pulse cannon instead of plasma cannon, and upgrading Tiger or Nova 'fury flights to Auroras. The problem is that these are all still the standard load during the crusade era, there isn't another shift in primary weaponry.

Minbari

This fleet should get an LCV for there fleet.

As in what? Skirmish-priority fighting ship? Tradana combat frigate (torotha packing neutron lasers) might work. I'm not sure that a patrol-priority ship is necessarily appropriate, though. Given how small and snotty most patrol ships are, you have to wonder why the minbari would deliberately make a ship that weak. A Valen-class would be cool, though.

Narn: Make two for 1 ships a little beefier and remove the 2 for 1 (from all fleets with these ships)

Yes.

Centauri: Demos needs reviewing

I don't think anyone's going to argue with that one.

ISA

We are really un impressed with the White star gunship. It is basically just 2 white stars in one ship. There is not much insentive to take it over the two white stars.

The first edition WSC-2 had underslung missile racks, as I recall. I'm aware that long ranged firepower on something as irritatingly agile as a white star hull has the potential to be intensely annoying, especially as (unlike the vree) it's not exactly fragile.

Adding in the Enfilii - the ranger ship that got disabled at the start of Legend of the Rangers - might be interesting. I didn't recognise the design as any standard minbari hull.

Vree

Another example of a swarm fleet.

As noted, that's an issue of FAP, not ships. There are a few ship issues in the fleet as well.

Vorlons

There higher PL ships have more damage then a full PL above them (only the T'loth and T'ran have as much). Take Adaptive armour, Self repair, no crew, can't be boarded and redundant systems into account and they can survive attacks from ships two PLs above them (which should be more like a 13 year old beating up a 5 year old). While this does match the show, game balance wise it is not good. Also the limited choices makes for a very bland fleet. If you want them to be like the other ancients then simply make them not accessable to regular play or take some creative licence (like in all the other fleets) and make them a full fleet by providing them with a number of smaller ships and fighters and a balanced higher PL fleet.

Are we looking at the same fleet? The vorlon Light cruiser, for example has 55 damage points - the only things with as few are the white star carrier (which has adaptive armour and dodge), and the overgunned, under-protected Mankhat missile dreadnought. You tend to have significantly less damage points than anyone else.

A vorlon transport can survive one (or maybe two) hits from a battle priority ship's guns, but then so can a lot of skirmish ships (most of the older hyperions, maximus, strike carrier, etc). What it won't do is beat a bigger ship. I don't see what's so exceptional about it.

Supposedly there is a vorlon frigate forthcoming (again, assume raid priority)..

Shadows

This fleet has the same limitations as the Vorlons. Either make them an ancient race or expand the fleet.

They're a good fleet. They've got a stinker of a battle level ship and a fighter that's lethal against unprotected ships but virtually useless against anything else, but the scouts and battlecrabs are good ships without being too over the top. I don't see why they should be so much of a problem

Drahk

The huge hangers are really a problem. The Carrier and mother ship both carry another FAP worth of ships. You can litterally bring twice the number of FAPs to the battle then your opponent.

True. More importantly, the Drakh undo any corrective move to FAPs - if you make bigger ships better value to buy to reduce swarms, you actually make the drakh raider swarm better!

Psi-Corp

Give them a few more ships.

Would be good to see, but what? The trick is how to add things whilst not making the fleet 'Earthforce but better'. This is hard because that's basically what it is....




* The Nova-X is one of those ships which is canon due to CGI errors; the omega-class destroyer makes a brief appearance in 'In the Beginning' despite it being far too early for it to do so. The hand-waving explanation is that it was a prototype series developed from the Nova class.

 

[Burger]

The Omega destroyer doesn't exist yet so why would there be something more capable in combat?

Your logic fails by multiple example.

1) From 2230 and 2246, the Abbai had a Battle ship but no Raid.
2) From 2226 to 2232, the Brakiri had a War ship but no Raid or Skirmish!!!
3) From 2202 to 2215 the Dilgar had Raid but no Skirmish
4) From 2238 to 2241 the Drazi had a Battle but no Raid
5) From 2252 to 2256 the Gaim had Raid but no Skirmish

... need I go on? ISA, Minbari, Raiders, Vree all have similar.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

The Omega destroyer doesn't exist yet so why would there be something more capable in combat?

Your logic fails by multiple example.

1) From 2230 and 2246, the Abbai had a Battle ship but no Raid.
2) From 2226 to 2232, the Brakiri had a War ship but no Raid or Skirmish!!!
3) From 2202 to 2215 the Dilgar had Raid but no Skirmish
4) From 2238 to 2241 the Drazi had a Battle but no Raid
5) From 2252 to 2256 the Gaim had Raid but no Skirmish

... need I go on? ISA, Minbari, Raiders, Vree all have similar.

Actually, Burger, the logic is sound. Earth has nothing as good as the Omega destroyer, but the Orestes sits at the same PL. The Oresetes is the pinnacle of capital ship design at that point in history. A bigger, more capable ship at war priority, when the advanced Omega hasn't been designed to retire the Orestes, does not fit.

 

[Burger]

The Omega destroyer doesn't exist yet so why would there be something more capable in combat?

Your logic fails by multiple example.

1) From 2230 and 2246, the Abbai had a Battle ship but no Raid.
2) From 2226 to 2232, the Brakiri had a War ship but no Raid or Skirmish!!!
3) From 2202 to 2215 the Dilgar had Raid but no Skirmish
4) From 2238 to 2241 the Drazi had a Battle but no Raid
5) From 2252 to 2256 the Gaim had Raid but no Skirmish

... need I go on? ISA, Minbari, Raiders, Vree all have similar.

Actually, Burger, the logic is sound. Earth has nothing as good as the Omega destroyer, but the Orestes sits at the same PL. The Oresetes is the pinnacle of capital ship design at that point in history. A bigger, more capable ship at war priority, when the advanced Omega hasn't been designed to retire the Orestes, does not fit.

So how does the bigger, more capable Lakara exist before the Bimith is designed?
How does the bigger, more capable Xonn exist before the Xill is designed?

You can't have it both ways

 

[Foxmeister]

The Omega destroyer doesn't exist yet so why would there be something more capable in combat?

Your logic fails by multiple example.

1) From 2230 and 2246, the Abbai had a Battle ship but no Raid.
2) From 2226 to 2232, the Brakiri had a War ship but no Raid or Skirmish!!!
3) From 2202 to 2215 the Dilgar had Raid but no Skirmish
4) From 2238 to 2241 the Drazi had a Battle but no Raid
5) From 2252 to 2256 the Gaim had Raid but no Skirmish

... need I go on? ISA, Minbari, Raiders, Vree all have similar.

This is putting far too much stock in ISDs which the vast majority of people never use anyway. Locarnos point is concerns the fleet lists overall, without reference to ISDs, which are pretty dodgy in the first place.

If ISDs possessed any degree of real relevance in the game, there would be one single EA list, not the 3 we currently have.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Foxmeister]

So how does the bigger, more capable Lakara exist before the Bimith is designed?
How does the bigger, more capable Xonn exist before the Xill is designed?

You can't have it both ways

In "reality", you don't just keep designing bigger and bigger ships - you design ships to a fulfill a particular role or requirement and/or economic considerations of the time. The fact that the Lakara is bigger and more capable than a Bimith and was designed beforehand is immaterial - they were not created with the same purpose in mind.

Oh, and ISDs are just crap fluff too! This is especially true for ships that were not actually in the series.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Lord David the Denied]

So how does the bigger, more capable Lakara exist before the Bimith is designed?
How does the bigger, more capable Xonn exist before the Xill is designed?

You can't have it both ways

The Xill's ISD is wrong. Like Foxmeister says, the Lakara and Bimith are different ships with different roles, but the Orestes and Omega are filling the same role.

 

[Burger]

the Lakara and Bimith are different ships with different roles, but the Orestes and Omega are filling the same role.

So why does that preclude a War level ship for the early EA? Maybe it has a dfifferent role than the Orestes and Omega?