Shadow Fighters - Just why

[Da Boss]

Ok It is a constant moan from me but I consider justified

Shadow Fighters - why are they so rubbish - what possible reason is there? :shock:

Once again the bad points:

1 Patrol point gets you 2 fighters - that is the same as the Rutarian, White Star Fighter, Shial, Nial, Firebolt - all of which can be considered outstanding fighters (hence the cost) with excellent things to recomend them - unlike the Shaodw Fighter

Dogfight - it gets 0 (for no apparent reason)- ALL of the above get at least +2 dogfight - even WITHOUT a fleet Carrier - which the Shadows STILL can't ever get!
:roll:

Guns - Shadow fighter 3AD DD short range guns - OK almost good but still rubbish compared to the above - even the minbari fighters get almost the equivalent of SAP and of course can't be intercepted

Dodge - 3+ as good as the White star rest are better

move - slow and lumbering at 12 compared to the rest

Fleet Carrier - now the rest can get a nice carrier to both bost their fighters and get them back in event of their destruction - do the Shadows - hell no they don't want / or need them :roll: Why would they when they fought the Minbari - they don't use fighters do they.

Escort - wait if its a Bomber type as has been suggested it can be escorted by others to its target - oh wait no the Shadows don't get a proper fighter varient

Campaign cost- Due to the wonderfulness ( :lol: :roll: ) the Shadowfighter it costs double to replace and of course can't be got back for free with Fleet Carrier.

So whats good about it

Hyperspace Mastery - yes quite usefull :shock: execpt of course immeditaely jumped on bu enemy fighters or run into a hail of AF if actually get to attack an enemy ship

Shields - Hurrah great they protect against...........hm .....thinking - oh yes the odd AD of normal guns that someone chucks at you.

So in summation - just why!

anyway Have fun and 2nd Ed is great and fun and all but this minor little thing just niggles me! :lol: Can you tell! Shutting up now

 

[Triggy]

I don't know. I suggested a better Dogfight score in playtesting (and 3/wing), katadder suggested Shields working in dogfights, there would have been many solutions to making them a viable fighter. With the current stats, they're worth about 5/wing.

 

[Sulfurdown]

I don't know, 3AD DD versus 3AD mB seem relatively comparable and the speed should be on par with the Frazi, maybe slightly faster.

Personally I would rather see a Shields 2/1 or 3/1 since they cost double presumably for the "Ancients" or "No Crew" costs which all fighters uniformly have/don't have anyway. The dogfight still is a little abysmal but they didn't seem all that great in the series. Then again, extrapolating the technology that allows their Armageddon ships to have SM, I'd assume their fighters would be superbly maneuverable to having better dodge AND dogfight since both seem based on maneuverability.

I'd house rule the fighters for both Vorlon and Shadows to cost the same as any other fighters.

 

[Stonehorse]

Think at my club there are going to be some 'club rules' for these guys... mainly Shields are allowed to be used against Anti-Fighter and Advanced Anti-Fighter... it just makes sense. To hit the ship you have to take down the shields first.

I'm not so keen on the idea that they can be used in Dogfights, but using a bit of thinking it is quite apparent that they then could tie up any Fighters for the duration of an entire game as they only take one hit from dogfight, which their shields absorb, then next turn replenish the same shields to carry on the annoyance. That I feel would make them too good.

Other than the above I can't try and justify why they cost 2 for 1 Patrol choice, maybe the game designers tried to balance the list against the idea of the army in question, as to other games companies who try to balance lists against other armies... which causes a bit of a awkward situation.

 

[Chernobyl]

yeah, I think that allowing shields to work against anti-fighter makes the most sense. maybe not against dogfight, though.

Chern

 

[Target]

Would Hull 6 help at all ?
Definately think it needs a dogfight score of atleast +1 if they aren't going to come out with a interceptor varient/ model.
Would love to see more ships in the Shadow & Vorlon fleets.
It's the main reason i don't get a fleet of shadows.

 

[victor romeo]

Rather than allowing shields against Anti-Fighter, and thereby breaking one of the core rules, it would make more sense to give them 3 inch range on their Polarity Cannon. This would force people to use normal guns to shoot them thereby making the shields count for something.

Another nice boost would be to let them use the Superb Manoeverability speed boost that the rest of the fleet has forcing people to regard them as a real threat early on.

Of course they would still suck in dogfights but they would be more balanced.

 

[LaranosTZ]

I know that shadow fighters are not that good offensively, but why not look at them from another perspective, defense?

Shadow fighters can obviously be used to perform interceptor duties on their motherships, giving shadows yet -another- layer of protection to add to shields, and self regeneration, and crit regeneration.

Offensively, yes...they leave a lot to be desired, but when you consider everything they can do, I think they are still worth it, maybe not to buy them as individual wings, but really there are very few fighters worth buying as individual wings anyway.

 

[Da Boss]

Shadow fighters can obviously be used to perform interceptor duties on their motherships, giving shadows yet -another- layer of protection to add to shields, and self regeneration, and crit regeneration.

Offensively, yes...they leave a lot to be desired, but when you consider everything they can do, I think they are still worth it, maybe not to buy them as individual wings, but really there are very few fighters worth buying as individual wings anyway.

Yes I see that but then everyone else can get fighters that are destroyed back on interceptor duty due to fleet carrier rule (probably on a 4+) and also yet again the shields are worthless despite them being shot at by normal fire this time. In Campaigns still cost double to replace - 6pts for two fighters!

Secondly remember they are the only Shadow choice below Raid..........

 

[Triggy]

That's possibly the point - they're not a bad fighter for the carrier ships but are they worth choosing as a selection on their own?

 

[Stonehorse]

That's possibly the point - they're not a bad fighter for the carrier ships but are they worth choosing as a selection on their own?

Just a quick question, if they are used Interceptors and roll a 1 do their shields come into play?

I may use them for this pupose unless I'm lucky enough to fight against ships without Anti-Fighter and/or Advanced Anti-Fighter.

Just been looking at all the other fleets available fighters and their cost, I think the worst Fighter Wing is not the Shadows, but rather the Psi-Core Shadowfury... 1 flight per wing is a big disadvantage.

 

[Da Boss]

Just been looking at all the other fleets available fighters and their cost, I think the worst Fighter Wing is not the Shadows, but rather the Psi-Core Shadowfury... 1 flight per wing is a big disadvantage.

It is a dog fighter pure and simple and is great at that - get it as a carried ship - yes I know that Shaodws can do same but the Psi Corps can have Black Omegas or a Shadowcloak instead - both good choices and the former much better than a Shadow fighter- Especially against other fighters.

Also remember in campaigns they cost the same to replace.

There is actually a choice - without mentioning Skirmish varients - the Shadows have none except a target drone.

The answer is either make it better or make it cheaper!!! Or make some more Shadow things! (or all three preferably!)

 

[Stonehorse]

It may be good at dogfighting, but the advantage it has can be easily taken away from being out numbered in a dogfight, move 5 flights into dogfight with it and then the advantage goes away, and quite a few fleets have the option to field many flights in a wing choice.

The Nial in 1st edition suffered from the same issue, a really good ship, just not numerous to make an impact. I just don't think that any wing should contain only 1 flight... 2 at the minimum.

 

[Da Boss]

Just a quick question, if they are used Interceptors and roll a 1 do their shields come into play?

.

Nothing to say that this in fact works - but happier if it did

 

[Da Boss]

or have to resorting to ram in - like in the show

 

[Lone Gunman]

Just asked myself the same question over and over again. Why ever taking a Shadow fighters and the stalker?

The fighter needs a good boost, the stalker only a few ad beam and damage.

 

[Triggy]

People are constantly underestimating just how tought the Stalker is. Try it out and keep remembering to retreat it to repair then come back and attack again and you'll do surprisingly well!

 

[Stonehorse]

The Stalker is a great battle ship. A strong Hull, good Shields, nice amount of Self-Repair and a very good gun. Also thanks to being a Shadow Ship it can use its Hyperspace Mastery to be a deadly surprise... or use its normal high speed and SM to get to where it wants to be.

Against other fleets Battle ships it is a nice choice, I can't fault it... but again I haven't used one yet so this could all change when I use one. Which with a bit of luck should be tomorrow.

 

[Triggy]

The Stalker is a great battle ship. A strong Hull, good Shields, nice amount of Self-Repair and a very good gun. Also thanks to being a Shadow Ship it can use its Hyperspace Mastery to be a deadly surprise... or use its normal high speed and SM to get to where it wants to be.

Against other fleets Battle ships it is a nice choice, I can't fault it... but again I haven't used one yet so this could all change when I use one. Which with a bit of luck should be tomorrow.

Maybe it should have a slightly more powerful beam but its strength is the combination of manoeuvrability and toughness. To get full value out of it you really can't sit it in front of an enemy not needing to use its strengths unlike some ships where they are sort of "idiot proof"

 

[Da Boss]

Still waiting a good reason why they are this bad (fighters) and if they are going to be fixed? Need a hopeful emote?